Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Moral systems require context, yes, but complete moral relativism renders morality meaningless. To most people there is no context where child sex is not immoral.The basic questions come down to this:
Do you believe that an adult having sex with a 9 year old is not harmful in a culture that accepts it?
If you believe it is harmful why do you not consider it immoral?
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
That is a very strange moral belief, that morality in the future will be superior to morality of today, and not one most people ascribe to.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Emphasis on "managed." Them surviving doesn't mean it was pleasant or that the circumstances in which it happened were right.
Originally posted by Astner
But how do you figure that marrying and arguably having sex with a nine year old girl is necessarily harmful to her?
1) there is no arguably about having sex, that is the actual topic of conversation...
2) seriously?
I imagine there are scores of child labourers who managed just fine too. Hell, there are rape victims who bare no real physical or psychological scars...
Originally posted by Oliver North
1) there is no arguably about having sex, that is the actual topic of conversation...
Originally posted by Oliver North
2) seriously?
Originally posted by Oliver North
I imagine there are scores of child labourers who managed just fine too. Hell, there are rape victims who bare no real physical or psychological scars...
If you can show me statistical data of nine year-olds suffering from childbirth when the father is healthy, able, and willing to provide for the nine year-old and their child. Then I'll concede that it's objectively wrong.
Originally posted by Astner
Until you provide a source for it I'll continue to refer to it as a hypothetical scenario.
the conversation for pages now has been about the morality of having sex with a child...
so, my source would be this thread itself?
Originally posted by Astner
If you can show me statistical data of nine year-olds suffering from childbirth when the father is healthy, able, and willing to provide for the nine year-old and their child. Then I'll concede that it's objectively wrong.
thats not actually the harm I'm talking about, but rather the victimization of someone clearly without the cognitive development to deal with the outcome of sexual activity, much like the rape of a mentally handicapped individual. Its not a physical harm, it is a violation of that person.
However, if you are actually challenging me to prove child-birth isn't particularly safe for a 9 year old I'm just going to laugh at you and link a biology 101 textbook.
Originally posted by Oliver North
the conversation for pages now has been about the morality of having sex with a child...
Originally posted by Oliver North
so, my source would be this thread itself?
Originally posted by Oliver North
thats not actually the harm I'm talking about, but rather the victimization of someone clearly without the cognitive development to deal with the outcome of sexual activity, much like the rape of a mentally handicapped individual. Its not a physical harm, it is a violation of that person.
Originally posted by Oliver North
However, if you are actually challenging me to prove child-birth isn't particularly safe for a 9 year old I'm just going to laugh at you and link a biology 101 textbook.
Originally posted by Astner
The argument is whether or not Muhammad was a prophet, and the basis for your argument is that he wasn't because he wasn't perfect because he married and arguably had sex with a nine year-old.
you are a very strange person Astner
not only is that unrelated to my point at all, I have a fairly strong background in Islamic history and studies, so my opinion of Mohammed has nothing to do with that. Many interpretations of Islam hold that while Mohammed was a prophet, he was also a man, and therefore subject to the same flaws and influences of men. This "perfect-man" interpretation of Mohammed is by no means universal. Were I a Muslim, I'd have no need to think Mohammed was without sin, and because I don't believe in any Gods, I don't believe Mohammed was a prophet, regardless of his sins.
Your other statements border on inane and I'm sure someone as smart as you can read them again and understand why.
Originally posted by Oliver North
not only is that unrelated to my point at all,
Originally posted by Oliver North
Your other statements border on inane and I'm sure someone as smart as you can read them again and understand why.
Originally posted by Astner
But that's what the topic is about, that's why eninn is defending this action.
you have trouble with this whole "conversations go off topic" thing, eh? I don't think I've responded to a single thing eninn has said...
Originally posted by Astner
I honestly don't care what you think of me. Now, where's the source I requested?
I'm not sure what you mean, so I'll just be flippant about the three parts you quoted above that I ignored:
1) we obviously aren't talking about a hypothetical, as your own position is that it was a cultural practice, meaning by tautology, it is a real, non-hypothetical thing
2) there are numerous laws on the books, today, that follow exactly the principle I outlined. Anything that requires an age of consent, for instance, such as sex, contract law or driving/drinking ages. Also, the law has little to do with morality. so now it is you who is going off topic.
3a) 9 year-olds largely can't have children because they are pre-pubescent in almost all cases
3b) we could talk about the physical damages of a full grown man penetrating a small child, we could go into the psychological development of the child, the hormonal changes and how there would be worse on a child, the psychological issues of post-partum depression and how there is no chance a child has the psychology to deal with that, etc. You want a source? read a ****ing book. I don't ask you to describe 8th grade algebra whenever you make a point about spatial dimensions.
Originally posted by Oliver North
you have trouble with this whole "conversations go off topic" thing, eh? I don't think I've responded to a single thing eninn has said...
Originally posted by Oliver North
1) we obviously aren't talking about a hypothetical, as your own position is that it was a cultural practice, meaning by tautology, it is a real, non-hypothetical thing
Originally posted by Oliver North
2) there are numerous laws on the books, today, that follow exactly the principle I outlined. Anything that requires an age of consent, for instance, such as sex, contract law or driving/drinking ages. Also, the law has little to do with morality. so now it is you who is going off topic.
Originally posted by Oliver North
3a) 9 year-olds largely can't have children because they are pre-pubescent in almost all cases
Originally posted by Oliver North
3b) we could talk about the physical damages of a full grown man penetrating a small child, we could go into the psychological development of the child, the hormonal changes and how there would be worse on a child, the psychological issues of post-partum depression and how there is no chance a child has the psychology to deal with that, etc. You want a source? read a ****ing book.
yes, I'm embarrassed
"kid" is a nice touch, especially from someone who apparently doesn't care about what I think of them 😛 also, I'm almost 30 at this point, so, I wish... lol
anyways, this is at the level of trolling, if you come up with something that isn't asinine, let me know. Otherwise I'll let anyone reading the thread determine how embarrassed I should be for themselves
Originally posted by Astner
Once again, until you can provide a credible source verifying that Muhammad did in fact have intercourse with Aisha at the age of nine it's a hypothetical scenario.
I do love how you accused me of not bothering to "read up on Islam" and being ignorant, yet here you can't bother to do 2 minutes of research.
Aisha and her age of marriage and consummation of the marriage is mentioned a few times in the Hadiths.
Here's one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahih_al-Bukhari
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/062-sbt.php#007.062.064
Originally posted by AstnerYou're the one who should be embarrassed. Culture be damned, every one who can empathize with other humans knows that a nine year old girl is not mature enough to desire sex with a grown man! Men just didn't care, and used tradition to violate innocence for their own personal pleasure. It was immoral then and probably ALL the women thought so. Your arguments have been tainted from the beginning with the idea that death is worse than violation. Death may be wonderful to those who are dead, but how many rape victims are happier for being raped? It's a shame that no matter how twisted something obviously is you have someone who's going to justify it.
An ad hominem attack? 🙄No really, kid, you're embarrassing yourself.
The MISTER
read and understand
In the Arabian Peninsula
This situation is normal
At that time
Aisha before the marriage of the Prophet
Associated with a person of the tribe before the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him
But the marriage did not complete
Therefore
Kfar
Quraish
Did not speak about it
Against
Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him
You mean
Marriage of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon Ms. Aisha, may Allah be pleased
Nabi speeches before puberty
And married after puberty
So can not marry young girls before puberty
Because mental sensations for the girl
Composed after puberty
Originally posted by eninn
The MISTERread and understand
In the Arabian Peninsula
This situation is normal
At that time
Aisha before the marriage of the Prophet
Associated with a person of the tribe before the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him
But the marriage did not complete
Therefore
Kfar
Quraish
Did not speak about it
Against
Prophet Muhammad peace be upon himYou mean
Marriage of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon Ms. Aisha, may Allah be pleasedNabi speeches before puberty
And married after pubertySo can not marry young girls before puberty
Because mental sensations for the girl
Composed after puberty
I actually do understand that on earth these types of situations are normal. Situations where the women are dominated by a culture that doesn't allow for them to voice their opinions about what's expected of them. Situations where children are denied education and childhoods so that they can better serve the prevalent male agenda. Situations where the leaders of the countries use religious doctrine to keep their people preoccupied while they break all the rules at their leisure.
Though these situations are normal all over this planet, it doesn't make them positive. Do you understand?
Children who are used as bartering tools and sex toys are in the same category as slaves, and even more powerless as running away is almost impossible for them.