Originally posted by -Pr-
Colossus has had at least two amps since then.And that's Cyclops. He knows Peter's strengths and weaknesses. Batman doesn't.
What are these amps and what are they going to help him do?
The OP specified that he doesn't get the Cytorrak Ruby upgrade (no Colossusnaut).
And the point of using Cyclops was and is to illustrate my previous post's points and a few others:
1) a human level opponent can survive a punch-slam from Colossus, even if Colossus means business.
2) Colossus can be toppled by a special surprise attack and judo
3) even a man with broken ribs is swift enough to evade Colossus if he is hero-level athletic
4) Colossus has a short temper and can be persuaded to follow after opponents without giving it much thought, thinking man or no
5) Colossus is ground-bound, too heavy to swim, and can be caught in viscous liquid-type traps, as even Juggernaut before him was.
9 of 9.
Might even be worth pointing out that Cyclops does NOT consider Colossus his primary threat, busted ribs or no, when fighting the X-men.
Given a choice between Colossus and Wolverine, it's Wolverine he takes down. Presented with the prospect of just clearing a dozen yards that Storm and Rogue are guarding, he thinks to himself "this LAST lap is the hardest ..."
(Presumably Colossus is still struggling to free himself at this point, else waiting for a teammate help him do so.)
Originally posted by -Pr-
Cyclops ... knows Peter's strengths and weaknesses.
Batman doesn't.
Indeed, but how hard would these be for Batman to discover?
Looks like a literal Superstrong man of steel?
Is Batman going to see that and think "I can drop this fool with one punch! He's only made of metal. My hand can take that easy ..." ?
Is he?
Or is Bruce more likely to think: "I'll need something special for this guy. Would electricity do the trick? One of my explosives? Can I blind this guy? Are his ears soundproof? If he's metal, is he affected by things that are magnetic? Whatever the case, I'd better be careful. This guy can press several tons! I've read reports of this guy trashing several installations (or whatever the world knows of Colossus). I should lead him away from innocents and stay out of his range till I can think of something effective..."
#5 by the way, would lead Bruce to some interesting conclusions, even as it did Magneto and Beast:
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
What are these amps and what are they going to help him do?The OP specified that he doesn't get the Cytorrak Ruby upgrade (no Colossusnaut).
And the point of using Cyclops was and is to illustrate my previous post's points and a few others:
1) a human level opponent can survive a punch-slam from Colossus, even if Colossus means business.
2) Colossus can be toppled by a special surprise attack and judo
3) even a man with broken ribs is swift enough to evade Colossus if he is hero-level athletic
4) Colossus has a short temper and can be persuaded to follow after opponents without giving it much thought, thinking man or no
5) Colossus is ground-bound, too heavy to swim, and can be caught in viscous liquid-type traps, as even Juggernaut before him was.
Since the scans you posted, Colossus has had both his strength and durability strongly upgraded, even outside of the cyttorak amp.
1. It broke Cyclops' ribs, and even throughout that story, Cyclops was on the run.
2. Sure, but that's not a win. Plus, he weighs more now.
3. In the Danger Room, but even without that, running away isn't a win.
4. He has nothing of the sort. They were convinced that was Dark Phoenix, arguably the most dangerous enemy they ever faced. Colossus is incredibly passive, and has to be pushed extremely far to lose his temper.
5. Again, those only slow him down; that's not a win.
Saying Bruce "will find a way" isn't a valid defence or debating tactic.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Since the scans you posted, Colossus has had both his strength and durability strongly upgraded, even outside of the cyttorak amp.
Upgraded to the point that Storm's kicks can affect him.
X-Men #37, released just this month.
Are we going by what's in the comics or not?
P.R. you know as well as I do that every time Marvel claims character x is bigger and better than ever, it doesn't necessarily equate to the truth ... OR make character x more effective than before.
To give one example, World War Hulk is widely held to be superior to previous versions of Hulk. Stronger than Savage Hulk and smarter, for instance.
Going on that premise, it'd be reasonable to expect World War Hulk would handle, say, Wolverine 2005, easier than Savage Hulk of 1975 or thereabouts did, yes?
Is that the reality?
In point of fact, Savage Hulk was able to knock Wolverine out, after an unexpected pause in fighting, with a single blow.
Meanwhile, Wolverine found his claws could not cut Hulk's hide, whereas they did so quite effectively on the Wendigo, and would later do to World War Hulk himself.
Hulk's "upgrade" to World War Hulk translates into Hulk now getting cut by the claws of Wolverine, and requiring multiple hits to take Wolverine out of a fight.
Upgrades should be demonstrable, P.R.
If we're eliminating Cytorrak and Phoenix upgrades, the only true upgrades I know of, then you haven't shown any for Colossus.
And neither, from what I've seen, have the comics.
One abnormal showing doesn't destroy the average.
Colossus being affected by the kick at all would fall under the Spider-Man Vs Firelord category, which we have a ruling for.
Actually yes, the comics have shown at least TWO definitive upgrades to Colossus. One, when Magneto rearranged his skin, and two, when he was resurrected in Astonishing. There's also the point that Colossus was definitively stated to get more powerful as he grew in age. Honestly, any regular X-Men reader would know this as common knowledge.
You can't substitute what you think "should" be right, and have it take precedence over the comics.
Originally posted by -Pr-
One abnormal showing doesn't destroy the average.Colossus being affected by the kick at all would fall under the Spider-Man Vs Firelord category, which we have a ruling for.
Actually yes, the comics have shown at least TWO definitive upgrades to Colossus. One, when Magneto rearranged his skin, and two, when he was resurrected in Astonishing.
You can't substitute what you think "should" be right, and have it take precedence over the comics.
But isn't this what you're doing? I'm showing you something from the most recent actual COMIC that Colossus was shown in, sans being Colossusnaut or Phoenix Colossus, and YOU are the one telling me what you think "should" be right, based on Colossus's appearances in yesteryears. You're not going by what the comics themselves today are actually saying, are you?
Maybe the following might work:
Tell me what YOU think Batman would have to do in order to score a win here. You're telling me Colossus will thunderclap, though he hasn't done so to anyone's solid recollection in his entire history, to disperse Batman's gas and smoke.
You tell me that Colossus is fast even though Cyclops, pursued by pretty much the entire X-Men team of his time, was able to elude Colossus and everyone else with a set of busted ribs, which, by the way, he was only able to inflict on Cyclops because Cyclops was caught off-guard, thinking the X-Men were his friends and teammates as always, AND was pulled in by one of Storm's suction drafts. You tell me that Colossus is perfectly capable of leaping to great heights, even though I personally have never seen such a thing and even though no one on the pro-Colossus side can remember seeing that either.
Elsewhere you decry what you call "ABC" logic, "if character x can do the following, character y similar to character x can do the same" yet here are using the rationale that because other people in Colossus strength class have thunderclap and leaping feats, such should be well within Colossus reach too.
This despite such NOT being in character for Colossus (since the character has never, to most anyone's knowledge done these things), which the forum versus rules say should be a primary consideration.
You're moving the goalposts too much. I get the distinct impression that you would even argue at this point that a collapsing building (such took Colossus out on our light-gravity moon back in the original Dark Phoenix saga) would leave Petey unaffected.
Prove me wrong. Give me a reasonable comic-book based measure of force Batman needs to reproduce in your mind to score a knockout on Piotr. Make it justifiable and not arbitrary.
We'll see if we can plausibly match it given Batman's M.O., his standard gear as the OP stipulated, and the setting of New York City and go from there.