Darth Malak vs Darth Bane

Originally posted by Ascendancy
That, I have to say, is a much better argument for Malak's abilities.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
His strength is not lacking, and that augmented by whatever artifacts are mentioned above, but I'm not seeing any speed feats that make him more capable than DoE Bane, or direct assertions about his skill in the Force that would give him a chance against Bane in orbalisk armor.

As a massive space battle raged around the Star Forge, Revan boarded the station - but his progress was blocked by Bastilla Shan, now corrupted as Malak's apprentice. Revan overpowered Bastilla and saved her from Malak's insidious influence, thus restoring her to the path of the light side. Revan then confronted Darth Malak himself in a fierce duel, but Revan prevailed and finally defeated Darth Malak. (Star Wars The Old Republic Encyclopedia)

Therefore, it makes sense to assume that Malak wouldn't be lacking in speed, reflexes and things that define a fine warrior.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Again, Revan is noted by Bane for his knowledge and who he was to the Sith and Jedi of his era,

Originally posted by Ascendancy
but per actual showings neither he nor Malak have their mantles taken up by anyone as the best of the best in threads on the greatest of all time. Feel free to correct me if you disagree.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And that means...?

I was simply stating that when such discussions come up there are lengthy postings of supporting evidence for those who should make the top of the list, and rarely if ever is Malak mentioned in such company as there are few showings that suggest elevating him to that level.

^As to the above, I'm not saying that Malak is horrid, but weak writing or no, I'm still not seeing presentation of hardline ability that would allow him to overcome a peak Bane.

Even by the end of PoD he was a top duelist, and by DoE his speed, agility, and Force adaptation are borderline ridiculous. There need to be some pretty strong showings by Malak that specifically suggest he could overcome Bane. I hadn't seen anything of Gethzarion until recently, but those who argued for her overcoming Marek cited enough evidence that it's reasonable to say that she may have been able to defeat him should they go head-to-head.

I don't need glorious presentation of ability, but I would like specifics as to what skills Malak has that would allow him to take the day, not just that his duel with Revan was vicious.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
I was simply stating that when such discussions come up there are lengthy postings of supporting evidence for those who should make the top of the list, and rarely if ever is Malak mentioned in such company as there are few showings that suggest elevating him to that level.

^As to the above, I'm not saying that Malak is horrid, but weak writing or no, I'm still not seeing presentation of hardline ability that would allow him to overcome a peak Bane.

Even by the end of PoD he was a top duelist, and by DoE his speed, agility, and Force adaptation are borderline ridiculous. There need to be some pretty strong showings by Malak that specifically suggest he could overcome Bane. I hadn't seen anything of Gethzarion until recently, but those who argued for her overcoming Marek cited enough evidence that it's reasonable to say that she may have been able to defeat him should they go head-to-head.

I don't need glorious presentation of ability, but I would like specifics as to what skills Malak has that would allow him to take the day, not just that his duel with Revan was vicious.

The manner in which Revan outgunned an Imperial Guard individual should teach you something.

Read about Imperial Guard here:

http://www.swtor-spy.com/codex/the-imperial-guard/1134/

Not just this but Revan effortlessely handled several Mandalorians with his martial skills in Rekkiad. Prior to this, Revan have fought through lot of Sith forces on Star Forge before he got the chance to confront Darth Malak himself. And prior to this, Revan have fought and killed lot of Mandalorians.

So I don't understand that why "descriptions" are more important then clues offered by canonical information.

Giving such kind of foe a formidable challenge is not possible without considerable skill.

Yes, Bane with orbalisks may have a good chance against Malak. Without them, he can loose. Keep in mind that Darth Malak also could use powers such as Force Drain to replenish his Force reserves in a long fight. In addition Darth Malak have demonstrated considerable skill with dark powers such as Force Choke and Force Stasis and even once trapped Revan in a whirlwind style concentration of energy.

Malak gets pwned.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As per Drew, Revan was skilled in all forms of lightsaber combat but employed unpredictable combat style.

The manner in which Revan outgunned an Imperial Guard individual should teach you something.

Read about Imperial Guard here:

http://www.swtor-spy.com/codex/the-imperial-guard/1134/

Not just this but Revan effortlessely handled several Mandalorians with his martial skills in Rekkiad. Prior to this, Revan have fought through lot of Sith forces on Star Forge before he got the chance to confront Darth Malak himself. And prior to this, Revan have fought and killed lot of Mandalorians.

So I don't understand that why "descriptions" are more important then clues offered by canonical information.

Giving such kind of foe a formidable challenge is not possible without considerable skill.

Yes, Bane with orbalisks may have a good chance against Malak. Without them, he can loose. Keep in mind that Darth Malak also could use powers such as Force Drain to replenish his Force reserves in a long fight. In addition Darth Malak have demonstrated considerable skill with dark powers such as Force Choke and Force Stasis and even once trapped Revan in a whirlwind style concentration of energy.

Ah, some specifics, that I like. Still, I see nothing that shows he could overcome Bane in orbs, or deal with Bane's speed and skill with sabers. Bane's lighting and destructive Force techniques also overshadow what you mention of Malak. Force Waves that obliterate temples and disintegrate metal, lightning one million volts strong, and an aura of darkside energy that literally left no trace of those it touched don't bode well for Malak either.

Ascendancy
I was simply stating that when such discussions come up there are lengthy postings of supporting evidence for those who should make the top of the list, and rarely if ever is Malak mentioned in such company as there are few showings that suggest elevating him to that level.

I preface this with the reminder that S_W_LeGenD remains on my ignore list some time ago, so I can't speak to his arguments.

But I will tell you that I am sympathetic to the idea that Malak (and Revan) are both highly underrated. Feat-to-feat, Bane is one of a great many who waste either of them. Personally, though, I've always placed Malak just under Dooku, with Revan a little higher on the list.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Ah, some specifics, that I like.

Also, what do you think of Malak verus Carth scenario which I contrasted above with that of Coleman who once found himself in similar situation but ended up dead?

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Still, I see nothing that shows he could overcome Bane in orbs, or deal with Bane's speed and skill with sabers.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Bane's lighting and destructive Force techniques also overshadow what you mention of Malak.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Force Waves that obliterate temples and disintegrate metal,

Originally posted by Ascendancy
lightning one million volts strong,

Originally posted by Ascendancy
and an aura of darkside energy that literally left no trace of those it touched don't bode well for Malak either.

Now keep in mind that if Malak could put Revan in stasis and/or trap him in a whirlwind of energy, he is in a good position to do the same with Bane and take advantage.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But I will tell you that I am sympathetic to the idea that Malak (and Revan) are both highly underrated.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Feat-to-feat, Bane is one of a great many who waste either of them.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Personally, though, I've always placed Malak just under Dooku, with Revan a little higher on the list.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I preface this with the reminder that S_W_LeGenD remains on my ignore list some time ago, so I can't speak to his arguments.

But I will tell you that I am sympathetic to the idea that Malak (and Revan) are both highly underrated. Feat-to-feat, Bane is one of a great many who waste either of them. Personally, though, I've always placed Malak just under Dooku, with Revan a little higher on the list.

I will give that credence. I don't think Revan or Malak are to be cast aside as though they are nothing, but I also agree that Malak has shown nothing that demonstrates him capable of overcoming Bane, whether in sabers, Force alone, or all out.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
I will give that credence. I don't think Revan or Malak are to be cast aside as though they are nothing, but I also agree that Malak has shown nothing that demonstrates him capable of overcoming Bane, whether in sabers, Force alone, or all out.

After all, Bane isn't the unstoppable juggernaut of destruction that some make him out to be.

JCW Malak dominated Revan with his Force powers on two occasions at least and utterly dominated other Jedi in combat who challenged him; this is impressive record. Most importantly, this guy packed enough strength to run a whole Sith Empire efficiently.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
I will give that credence. I don't think Revan or Malak are to be cast aside as though they are nothing, but I also agree that Malak has shown nothing that demonstrates him capable of overcoming Bane, whether in sabers, Force alone, or all out.

For the record, I agree that there's no evidence to suggest Malak could take Bane either.

*sigh* I was really hoping the Revan novel would have covered at least the end of KOTOR I so we could get some feats for Malak and Bastilla...but nope.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If this is the case then how come Worror (who isn't as renowned as Malak) managed to put Bane with orbalisks out of commission?

After all, Bane isn't the unstoppable juggernaut of destruction that some make him out to be.

Worror reflected Bane's own million volts of lighting back on him when he wasn't expecting it. Don't act like Worror pulled off some low-level attack that proved too much for Bane, therefore undermining his potential against other Force users.

Malak dies, my friend. Malak dies.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
For the record, I agree that there's no evidence to suggest Malak could take Bane either.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Worror reflected Bane's own million volts of lighting back on him when he wasn't expecting it. Don't act like Worror pulled off some low-level attack that proved too much for Bane, therefore undermining his potential against other Force users.

Master Worror, however, was a healer by training, and his power lay in that direction. (Star Wars Darth Bane Rule of Two)

The specialities of this Jedi lay elsewhere and not in combat and use of offensive Force powers.

And this is what happened during the confrontation:

In the corner the Ithorian broke his meditative trance, sensing that his companions had fallen. But before he could act Bane leapt through the air and landed in front of him, slashing all four of his throats simultaneously.

The Ithorian crumpled to the ground, and Bane turned to finish off the onehanded Jedi. Zannah felt the gathering dark side power of her Master, but in the instant before he unleashed the storm of deadly purple lightning, the Ithorian reached up from the floor and clutched him by his ankle. A shimmering blue globe surrounded them both as the mortally wounded Jedi released his own power in his final, dying act.

Instead of arcing across the room to destroy the one-armed Jedi, the lightning that flew from Bane's fingers reflected off the inside of the shimmering blue globe encasing him. The bolts ricocheted around wildly inside the globe, creating a storm of energy so intense that Zannah had to shield her eyes and look away. She heard Bane's scream rising above the sharp crackle of electricity, and when she looked back she saw the globe vanish and her Master fall to the ground in a charred and smoking heap. (Star Wars Darth Bane Rule of Two)

You see that a guy like Worror, who have some reasonable understanding of the Force, turned the tide of the battle with his command of the Force.

And so why not Malak who have contended with Revan?

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Malak dies, my friend. Malak dies.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

You see that a guy like Worror, who have some reasonable understanding of the Force, turned the tide of the battle with his command of the Force.

And so why not Malak who have contended with Revan?

Because Peak Bane, that is, DoE Bane, at his best - is better than the RoT Bane that Worror fought.

It would be erroneous to assume that the two are the same; they are not.

Also, as much as I respect Revan for what he managed to accomplish, and as much as I do see Malak as a powerful Sith Lord that is very likely on par with Darth Vader - I don't see him defeating Peak Bane, who is somewhat more powerful than RotS Sidious.

Malak would put up a good fight - but he would ultimately be crushed by Bane.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Because Peak Bane, that is, DoE Bane, at his best - is better than the RoT Bane that Worror fought.

It would be erroneous to assume that the two are the same; they are not.

Also, as much as I respect Revan for what he managed to accomplish, and as much as I do see Malak as a powerful Sith Lord that is very likely on par with Darth Vader - I don't see him defeating Peak Bane, who is somewhat more powerful than RotS Sidious.

Malak would put up a good fight - but he would ultimately be crushed by Bane.

1. Didn't the orbalisks enhanced Bane's strength in the Force?

2. By peak Bane, you assume DoE incarnation?

I was under the impression that RoT Bane with orbalisks is his peak condition, strength wise; correct me if I am wrong here.

While I do see Bane with orbalisks capable of taking on Malak but I believe that Malak have demonstrated enough strength to have a chance against any incarnation of Bane.

I do admit that Bane with orbalisks might be too difficult to handle with a lightsaber at least but JCW Malak have some impressive stats (if they are considered in absence of written material) and he is effective with his Force powers. A mistake from either opponent may swing the fight either way.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nicely put but I still see some issues;

1. Didn't the orbalisks enhanced Bane's strength in the Force?

Doesn't put him near his later incarnation. So irrelevant.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

2. By peak Bane, you mean DoE incarnation?

Duh.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I was under the impression that RoT Bane with orbalisks is his peak condition, strength wise; correct me if I am wrong here.

You mean physically, or power-wise?

Physically, it's irrelevant, because no one gives a damn about that here; they're talking about Bane's strength in the Force/speed, etc - which is Peak in DoE - not RoT, so you should forget about that.

Power-wise, overall, it's DoE, so you are corrected; it's Bane in DoE that is Peak-Bane - though, given the fact that that book is the conclusion in his story and logically the point where he would get highest in power, I would assume anyone with half a brain, could figure this out unaided. I see I was wrong.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

While I do see Bane with orbalisks capable of taking on Malak but I believe that Malak have demonstrated enough strength to have a chance against any incarnation of Bane.

Forget the Orbalisks - Bane doesn't need them - he's fast enough in DoE to take Malak out with speed, anyway.

Physical strength is almost a non-factor here, because Malak hasn't shown speed-feats to put him anywhere near being able to overwhelm Bane - but Bane has shown calculated feats that put him around the speed of Mace Windu and Sidious.

(Sword-swings per second compared to Mace/Sidious, etc - Rain Feat, speed calculated from the movement needed for that, etc, etc, etc.)

Any of this difficult, or are you getting it?

If you need further explanation or you're confused, let me know.

If you're smart enough, you won't challenge any of it.

Otherwise, you will; and I'll explain further.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I do admit that Bane with orbalisks might be too difficult to handle with a lightsaber at least but JCW Malak have some impressive stats (if they are considered in absence of written material) and he is effective with his Force powers. A mistake from either opponent may swing the fight either way.

Bane doesn't need Orbalisks later on, when he's visually fast enough to be compared with Mace and Sidious.

People probably need to let the Orbalisk thing go; there's no point to it.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Doesn't put him near his later incarnation. So irrelevant.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Duh.

Originally posted by Rookwood
You mean physically, or power-wise?

Originally posted by Rookwood
Physically, it's irrelevant, because no one gives a damn about that here; they're talking about Bane's strength in the Force/speed, etc - which is Peak in DoE - not RoT, so you should forget about that.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Power-wise, overall, it's DoE, so you are corrected; it's Bane in DoE that is Peak-Bane - though, given the fact that that book is the conclusion in his story and logically the point where he would get highest in power, I would assume anyone with half a brain, could figure this out unaided. I see I was wrong.

Individuals grow and change with passage of time. Performance in combat depends upon various factors and also circumstances. Sometimes individuals get power boost through external means and sometimes they fight on their own and these differences may have an impact on their performances in combat situations.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Forget the Orbalisks - Bane doesn't need them - he's fast enough in DoE to take Malak out with speed, anyway.

Physical strength is almost a non-factor here, because Malak hasn't shown speed-feats to put him anywhere near being able to overwhelm Bane - but Bane has shown calculated feats that put him around the speed of Mace Windu and Sidious.

(Sword-swings per second compared to Mace/Sidious, etc - Rain Feat, speed calculated from the movement needed for that, etc, etc, etc.)

Any of this difficult, or are you getting it?

On the basis of what I have revealed in this thread, it is apparent that Malak is considerably better then the likes of Coleman Trebor who presumably represent the majority. Even Coleman Trebor was a member of PT Council; so logically he should be better then majority.

Also, any argument solely focused on speed is going to fail and mislead; we have seen (non) Force-wielders giving challenge to Force-wielders in the mythos. Yes, rain feat of Bane demonstrates that his parrying in lightsaber combat can be nearly impossible to overcome. Malak may need to find an opening through his Force powers due to this reason.

Originally posted by Rookwood
If you need further explanation or you're confused, let me know.

If you're smart enough, you won't challenge any of it.

Otherwise, you will; and I'll explain further.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Bane doesn't need Orbalisks later on, when he's visually fast enough to be compared with Mace and Sidious.

People probably need to let the Orbalisk thing go; there's no point to it.

However, Malak's martial abilities are underrated IMO. Drew envisioned him as being formidable in martial context and this is reflected through his (JCW) stats in Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide.

With Malak, we are dealing with possibilities. With Bane, we have good assessment of his skills. I believe that Malak is formidable enough to give Bane a challenge in martial aspects of combat (if not his equal) but capable of matching Bane with his Force powers (this is one method through which Malak can sway the outcome of the duel in his favor).

I am not debating Bane's chances but I do believe in Malak's chances in this hypothetical conflict.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Elaborate please.

If I need to elaborate - you need to go back and re-learn all of Star Wars, again.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

This is what many think.

Yeah - because it's right herp-derp.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Power wise, obviously.

Power-wise?

I'd say with the Star Forge, Malak is probably close to Yoda in total power.

Without, then he's considerably below Bane.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I am also talking about strength in the Force.

Yeah, that would be DoE Bane.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Is this an attempt to insult my intelligence?

Individuals grow and change with passage of time. Performance in combat depends upon various factors and also circumstances. Sometimes individuals get power boost through external means and sometimes they fight on their own and these differences may have an impact on their performances in combat situations.

- I'd say your insulting your own intelligence.

Yes, power-progression typically means that at the end of the journey, the hero would be most powerful, etc, etc and a person with a functioning, logical brain, should be able to readily understand that DoE Bane is Peak-Bane.

So are you insulting your own intelligence? Very likely.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Issue is not with Bane but issue is with assumption that Malak is supposed to be slower due to lack of information. Malak haven't been explored much in this context and this complicates the situation for us in this debate. Malak may or may not be slower; we just don't know the right answer.

On the basis of what I have revealed in this thread, it is apparent that Malak is considerably better then the likes of Coleman Trebor who presumably represent the majority. Even Coleman Trebor was a member of PT Council; so logically he should be better then majority.

Also, any argument solely focused on speed is going to fail and mislead; we have seen (non) Force-wielders giving challenge to Force-wielders in the mythos. Yes, rain feat of Bane demonstrates that his parrying in lightsaber combat can be nearly impossible to overcome. Malak may need to find an opening through his Force powers due to this reason.

You want to know how fast Malak is?

Take Revan's speed from the novel - and then subtract just a bit.

That's how fast he is - and he's below Bane.

And no, Malak doesn't have what it takes through the Force to dance with Bane - he'd get crushed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I debate for knowledge purposes. 🙂

A Debator only uses his skills for knowledge and defense, per Master Nephthys.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

His martial abilities were certainly exceptional.

However, Malak's martial abilities are underrated IMO. Drew envisioned him as being formidable in martial context and this is reflected through his (JCW) stats in Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide.

With Malak, we are dealing with possibilities. With Bane, we have good assessment of his skills. I believe that Malak is formidable enough to give Bane a challenge in martial aspects of combat (if not his equal) but capable of matching Bane with his Force powers (this is one method through which Malak can sway the outcome of the duel in his favor).

I am not debating Bane's chances but I do believe in Malak's chances in this hypothetical conflict.

- Yes, Malak is formidable.

I'm one of the few that think he is very underrated.

But Malak can't match Bane in speed or with the Force.

Bane has shown that he's just that far over both Malak and even Revan. (And yeah, I'm a big fan of Revan, too)

Originally posted by Rookwood
If I need to elaborate - you need to go back and re-learn all of Star Wars, again.

And for your kind information, I don't need to re-learn Star Wars; I have a talent for predicting things (of logically assessing) with high accuracy. Time and again, many of my-what once used to be claims-have been validated later on. Therefore, don't underestimate me. 🙂

Originally posted by Rookwood
Yeah - because it's right herp-derp.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Power-wise?

I'd say with the Star Forge, Malak is probably close to Yoda in total power.

This thread considers peak Malak; Star Forge Malak perhaps? 🙂

The setting is not Star Forge though.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Without, then he's considerably below Bane.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Yeah, that would be DoE Bane.

Originally posted by Rookwood
- I'd say your insulting your own intelligence.

Yes, power-progression typically means that at the end of the journey, the hero would be most powerful, etc, etc and a person with a functioning, logical brain, should be able to readily understand that DoE Bane is Peak-Bane.

So are you insulting your own intelligence? Very likely.

Bane got artifical power boost with orbalisks during RoT as an example. Without orbalisks, RoT Bane's command of the Force may have been lower then that of DoE Bane's. However, with orbalisks?

In an another example; when Revan confronted the Imperial Strike Team aboard The Foundary, he wasn't in his prime condition due to a very very long period of torture he endured previously.

I assume that you will get my drift here.

Also, I am not interested in exchanges of insults and such. Please refrain from doing so.

Originally posted by Rookwood
You want to know how fast Malak is?

Take Revan's speed from the novel - and then subtract just a bit.

That's how fast he is - and he's below Bane.

Some examples:

1.

Veela and the other two survivors scrambled back into the passage near the chamber entrance, ducking out of sight around the corner to regroup. A second later a trio of grenades skittered across the floor, bouncing and rolling to a stop near the base of the sarcophagus. The instant before they detonated, Revan reached out with the Force and hurled the heavy stone lid of the sarcophagus toward the grenades. It acted as a shield, absorbing the worst of the blast before exploding into pebbles and dust. (Star Wars The Old Republic Revan)

2.

Their attention drawn for just an instant by the body of their leader tumbling to the floor, the two remaining Mandalorians faltered. Revan used that moment to unleash a sidearm throw of his lightsaber. The blade went spinning out in a wide arcing path that ended both their lives before they could move.

Revan adeptly caught his lightsaber by its hilt as it returned to his hand, then slowly stood up straight, his ears still ringing. (Star Wars The Old Republic Revan)

You see how fast Revan's reactions are? These are some major actions which Revan performs with speed of thought or better.

In addition, Revan's precognitive abilities are exceptional by Jedi standards. He cut down an Imperial Guard individual within just 2 exchanges. This is stunning feat since Sith Emperor's Imperial Guard units are incredibly martial individuals.

Even physically, this guy can outrun close-range blaster fire and dueling strikes with his moves:

1.

Veela and her team seized the advantage and charged into the room, blaster pistols blazing. All three aimed at Revan, who just barely rolled
clear in time. (Star Wars The Old Republic Revan)

2.

One of the guards battling Meetra broke off and tried to cut Revan off. The Jedi gathered himself and leapt high in the air, tucking his knees in tight to somersault over his opponent. The guard reacted to the unexpected move a fraction too slowly, his electrostaff slicing through the air above his head and missing Revan by only a few centimeters. (Star Wars The Old Republic Revan)

Also, if SPS is an argument, then what do you get from this:

Revan was in motion, his lightsaber flashing to life, before the words had finished spilling from her mouth. As Veela and two of the others—eacting slightly faster than the rest—fired their blasters, the green blade transformed into a spinning, twirling blur as he used it to deflect their bolts back in the direction of the shooters. (Star Wars The Old Republic Revan)

I don't know how much SPS is this but would be substantial given that it acted as a shield against some serious Mandalorian firepower.

It is futile excercise to underestimate Revan's martial abilities, precognitive abilities and speed. So if Malak gave this kind of guy serious trouble then he can give other formidable duelists serious trouble.

Originally posted by Rookwood
And no, Malak doesn't have what it takes through the Force to dance with Bane - he'd get crushed.

Originally posted by Rookwood
A Debator only uses his skills for knowledge and defense, per Master Nephthys.

Originally posted by Rookwood
- Yes, Malak is formidable.

I'm one of the few that think he is very underrated.

But Malak can't match Bane in speed or with the Force.

Bane has shown that he's just that far over both Malak and even Revan. (And yeah, I'm a big fan of Revan, too)

Well, I shall remind you that Revan have cut a swath through a Sith army; if Bane have demonstrated comparable performance then let me know. As far as I know, Caedus and Luke have.