Man of Steel (2013)

Started by Kotor388 pages
Originally posted by Nephthys
Okay first of all, the fight scenes are the best in any superhero movie ever.

It is clear that you really like this movie but this comment is way of over the top. Have you seen any other superhero movies?

Originally posted by Nephthys
We've never had a Superman movie where he has a good fight and this one delivered spectacularly. Also the fight scenes were no longer than those in the Avengers by my count.

I know you are expressing yourself but this comment makes it seem that you have no idea what you are talking about. I know you have love for the movie but don’t get carried away.

Originally posted by Kotor3
It is clear that you really like this movie but this comment is way of over the top. Have you seen any other superhero movies?

I know you are expressing yourself but this comment makes it seem that you have no idea what you are talking about. I know you have love for the movie but don’t get carried away.

Almost all of them. Which one do you think compares? The train fight from Spiderman 2 is probably the second best imo, but the dated graphics do kind of let it down and its just not on the same level.

Huh? The big fight at the end of Avengers is like 20-30 minutes long. I'm not seeing how the fight in Man of Steel is longer than that. The fight on the Helicarrier doesn't seem to be shorter than the Smallville fight by my reckoning either. Nor does the fight in the woods when compared with the World Engine fight.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
If you're gonna make a movie that feels more real and gritty, with a darker tone and atmosphere, then making your villain act like a cartoon character kinda misses the point. Cartoon Zod fit in the cartoon Donner film, he doesn't in Snyder's. Though yeah, he deserves credit for actually being the closest to having a sympathetic situation. Almost.

Dude, he wasn't even that hammy at all. He was more intense than over the top. His big 'I WILL FIND HIM!' wasn't meant to be cheesy or hammy, it was meant to be psychotic and crazy. Without pulling the 'appeal to the majority' fallacy, even the critics I've seen that hated the movie agree that he was pretty great as Zod.

'Operatic' was the phrase I saw him described as.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
As an aside, what was up with the truck scene? For someone trying to lay low and blend in, he sure likes to go over-the-top in destroying a man's livelihood in broad daylight. Again, kind of a weird thing to do for a good guy who avoids violence and "just wants to help". The guy's a prick to you, so you destroy his property and livelihood by crucifying his truck in the middle of the day. Weird and lucky that no one saw/heard that disproportionate over-the-top reaction. I thought this was a nice guy?

It was a joke.

You know the things you guys are complaining we didn't get enough of?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It's a romance. It's Lois Lane and Superman, everyone knows about that famous coupling. And it came the f*ck outta nowhere.

It was flirting. It seems that you're bringing in your preconceptions of Superman that don't match with the actual movie. At no point do they actually get together or anything, the movie is very clearly just showing the start of what could be a relationship. And how does it come out of nowhere if you're expecting it?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
What? No, I'm not talking about some mid-fight rumination. Where'd you get that from? I'm talking about shaving some time off that infinite climax and showing us Superman lamenting the destruction of Metropolis, the warping of the planet core, and the deaths of thousands. Like, instead of just cutting to the end scene with the colonel, inject a scene that show him acknowledging what his presence has caused. I just expected, before the movie ended, to see Superman expressing regret and sadness at all the horrible shit that happened. Maybe some admission of responsibility that it's his presence on Earth that drew the danger. But they didn't show us that.

Well you specifically compared it to Superman rescuing people, repairing the damage and taking the fight elsewhere in Superman 4 (awful movie btw). Such a comparison only highlights the difference in tone. This Superman isn't able to fix everything and avoid all consequences and be the perfect superhero. He can't shoot repair-beams from his eyes and when he tries to change arena's Zod punts him right back again. I just want you to accept that thats not a fault of the movie.

I will admit that the cut from Superman freaking out to shenanigans with the military was jarring, yes.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I really shouldn't have to watch interviews about the movie in order to justify something that happened in the movie.

But yeah, that makes sense. It's still disproportionate though. We see his heartache for having to kill the last Kryptonian... but we see no heartache for the countless people that Kryptonian killed. *shrug* Would have been nice to see a scene that showed that, but I guess that would have detracted from the Matrix Revolutions homage.

You don't. Its clearly a traumatic thing and it has an obvious reason for being so. I was just pointing out the interview for further elaboration, which is the whole point of interviews. You don't need it to justify what happened though. I mean, pretty much everyone already knows that Superman doesn't like killing people. Almost no-ones going to be confused as to why he was so sad afterwards.

In fact, the theater I was in had a small child who after the movie as they were getting up asked his father why Superman got so sad after killing Zod. 'Because he had to kill the last member of his species. Now he's all alone.' The dad said (or something like that). The kid responded 'Oh, that is sad' and made a :C face.

I agree though that would have been nice.

....... oh well??? 😐

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
What? That's not what happened. He saved the planet by fighting Zod. And that fight caused a terrible amount of damage. I was expecting the ultimate symbol of good and justice to acknowledge that, accept some burden of guilt and responsibility. Show that he cared, you know? Actually show that he cared, not have it implied from his comic book history. But they didn't, so...

Actually he saved the world by destroying the World Engine. Its only afterwards, when Zods clearly lost and refuses to surrender when Superman gives him the chance to, that they fight.

And he cared enough to snap the guys neck to save innocent people. You just can't say that Superman didn't care about people in this movie. That's retarded. Comparing him to a closet villain and Bella Swan is just laughable. He is constantly putting himself out there to save other people. Constantly holding himself back and hiding from the world, despite how much it hurts his life, despite having to watch his dad die in front of his eyes, because they aren't ready. Because of the effect it would have on the rest of the world. You later claim that Superman lacks humanity. Bullshit. He gives everything for humanity. You can't question Supermans commitment humanity. You just can't.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
But I want him to feel responsible.

Tough.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I want him to show some compassion and guilt. Actually show it.

He shows tons of compassion and has nothing to be guilty for.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
This is why I said he's an *sshole and compared him to a closet villain. A city ruined, a planet lasered, thousands dead, the world in turmoil--and I had been expecting Superman to show some regret. I'm just repeating myself ad nauseum here, and I think you get what I'm saying. He may be an alien, but he lacks humanity. He's supposed to be a sympathetic force for good, full of compassion for humans and a desire to guide them toward peace and greatness etc. etc. But Man of Steel showed us a Superman who doesn't think twice about the destruction around him. I'm going to bold this part, because I get the feeling you're misreading me and assuming that I'm saying the Superman characters is responsible for everything bad and is actually the bad guy. But---[b]Superman's not responsible, but he should FEEL responsible. A man of conscience, and morality should feel some inner turmoil, regardless if the blame ultimately lies with him or not. But the movie didn't show us that, so...[/b]

Again, too bad. The movie wasn't catered to your needs. Just because you wanted it isn't a strike against the movie. Theres no reason why he should feel responsible. You think Thor should feel responsible for the shit Loki pulls? Afterall if it wasn't for Thor he wouldn't have done any of the stuff he does. Did you want a scene of Thor weeping in New York as well?

Also you complain about him brooding too much and then want him to brood more? Lolwut?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Ultimately that's my big problem with this film.

I can't see how this is a big problem. You want one more scene of Superman showing compassion for humanity after an entire movie where he sacrifices for them and fights to save them. I'm sorry dude, I'm really not trying to shit on you or anything, but I just see this as a really petty and ultimately small complaint.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And he's not a U.S. citizen. He's an illegal alien.

He's grown up his whole life in Kansas. He's more American than you, you Canadian bastard.

Smash.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Almost all of them. Which one do you think compares? The train fight from Spiderman 2 is probably the second best imo, but the dated graphics do kind of let it down and its just not on the same level.

I do not have the same feelings as you do on the fight scenes. The fight scenes in MOS for me are below all of the recent marvel action pictures.

I understand as movies become older the special effects may not seem the same however, I rate fight scenes for superhero movies differently than a regular action picture.
Rating Criteria for superhero action picture that are based upon comic book characters:
• Character look and design
• Powers displayed
• Character attributes displayed
• All the other things we would expect for a good action picture sequence

For me MOS fails in two important categories:
• Powers displayed
• Character attributes displayed

Originally posted by Nephthys
Huh? The big fight at the end of Avengers is like 20-30 minutes long. I'm not seeing how the fight in Man of Steel is longer than that. The fight on the Helicarrier doesn't seem to be shorter than the Smallville fight by my reckoning either. Nor does the fight in the woods when compared with the World Engine fight.

That sounds correct. The comment I was addressing was “We've never had a Superman movie where he has a good fight and this one delivered spectacularly”.

I totally disagree. The fight scenes in superman II had never been done in that manner on screen before and excited people for years to come even when the special effects became outdated.

If you are basing fight scenes on updated special effects then I do not see that as good or fair measuring criteria.

How does MoS fail in powers display?

We see his super strength, speed, invulnerability, flight, heat vision and his super senses all applied in combat. Only thing missing was freeze breath.

Character attributes displayed?

I honestly disagree that they were lacking. For me they showed a very suitable kind of combat that suited superman.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I honestly disagree that they were lacking. For me they showed a very suitable kind of combat that suited superman.
👆

This is the best combat we've seen from Superman. Ever.

The action and fight scenes are so good they put everything else to shame.

It almost felt like watching an anime/cartoon fight and that is one huge compliment.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
This is the best combat we've seen from Superman. Ever.
I remember when I first saw Superman II: my friends and I were so excited to see live-action combat like in the comics. To this day, I still get da chills when I see those cars flying down the street from the bad guys' superbreath (also from Ursa's puffed-out cheeks).

However, the combat in MOS is lightyears beyond that. It's like comparing modern comic-book art with what was top-notch in the 1960s.

This is not your father's Superman, and it is, imho, The Best 'Reboot' of the character, ever. If they can continue his development as a superhero, not just in power skill but conscience, the opportunity is there to make Superman more 'human' than ever.

Originally posted by Mindship
I remember when I first saw Superman II: my friends and I were so excited to see live-action combat like in the comics. To this day, I still get da chills when I see those cars flying down the street from the bad guys' superbreath (also from Ursa's puffed-out cheeks).

However, the combat in MOS is lightyears beyond that. It's like comparing modern comic-book art with what was top-notch in the 1960s.

This is not your father's Superman, and it is, imho, The Best 'Reboot' of the character, ever. If they can continue his development as a superhero, not just in power skill but conscience, the opportunity is there to make Superman more 'human' than ever.

👆

I loved Superman 2. In fact his fight with Zod and co from that movie was the reason I had so much hype and expectation when watching Superman Returns. All I kept thinking was "Wow...Superman 2 was great 20 years ago. What they will be able to do with Superman with today's special effects is scary. I cannot wait." Then the film finished without Kal throwing a single punch.

I hope there's a director's cut of this movie.

Same here.

Hope it has more character development and a scene of Superman reflecting on everything that happened. Then again they'll probably save that for the sequel.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
How does MoS fail in powers display? We see his super strength, speed, invulnerability, flight, heat vision and his super senses all applied in combat. Only thing missing was freeze breath.

Perhaps my expectations were too high, even though I do not feel so.

Yes, he displayed the attributes you mentioned above, however were there any spectacular displays of these attributes for superman, No, I did not feel so. Let us do some comparisons:
• In Spiderman 2 the agility and strength that he displayed in the fight scene with Dr. Octavius for a movie display was spectacular. Stopping the train really showed how strong Spiderman is. A spectacular display of Spiderman’s strength.
• In the original superman, he moved so fast he was able to catch up with missiles send one out in space come back and top half of a state from sinking into the ocean, then he turns back time.
• Superman II – He moves so fast that he couldn’t be scene. Superior flying. Shot energy out of his hands, threw his S out of his suit. Lastly, he took Lois memory away.

Point I am making, nobody wanted to see superman begins. Especially for a movie that feature Zod. Superman used his attributes but did nothing that made me go, Awe! WoW! Etc. The special effects were updated but the fight scenes for a superman movie were not special to me. For an action movie, Yes, they were awesome.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Character attributes displayed?

Spiderman 2 – fight at the same time saving people. Expected character attribute.

Superman 2 – Kicks-ass while holding back and saves people. Expected character attribute.

Man of Steel – An enraged 33 year old superman who flies into his opponents without a care in the world. Individual saves = Lois. Not an expected character attribute.

I did want to see Superman begins. I did not want him to instantly be the ultimate flawless Superhero he is known for. He caught a guy falling from a plane while he was fighting Zod and Nam-Ek.

I watched Spider-Man 2's train fight and I agree it is awesome.

I agree and disagree with some of the points you made so all I'll say is "fair enough."

Originally posted by Zack Fair
I did want to see Superman begins. I did not want him to instantly be the ultimate flawless Superhero he is known for. He caught a guy falling from a plane while he was fighting Zod and Nam-Ek.

I watched Spider-Man 2's train fight and I agree it is awesome.

I agree and disagree with some of the points you made so all I'll say is "fair enough."

You got me he did save more than just Lois. If Superman Begins is what you wanted, then I agree, the movie delivers.

Originally posted by Mindship
However, the combat in MOS is lightyears beyond that. It's like comparing modern comic-book art with what was top-notch in the 1960s.

I agree with your statement.

I do not know if you ever saw ‘American Werewolf in London’ and ‘American Werewolf in Paris’ or any Werewolf picture afterwards. Even though special effects are superior now, every time I see American Werewolf in London, I just appreciate the special effects and how they were done much more than what I see in modern werewolf movies. It is probably because I know it was harder to do then and it was revolutionary.
I kind of get the same feeling about the original superman and MOS.

But, I definitely agree, MOS special effects is leagues ahead.

The action in Man of Steel was really fun, visually stunning, but it was not the best in a Superhero movie. CGI alone doesn't cut it for me personally.

There wasn't enough emotion, and it was too....clean. I think it would have more impact if Zod and Clark were beating each other to a pulp but that was just mo. Could have used better pacing, not just nonstop action, so we can better appreciate just how far above regular people Kryptonians are and enjoy the EXPLOSIONS.

Wouldn't it have been awesome to see the fight from the viewpoint of a human at one point trying to survive the carnage? It'd also have been a great chance to show how Kal was actively saving lives (Heat visioning glass or something) while Zod was trying to actively put them in harms way. Something like that would have solved most complaints.

Man, Snyder needs a co-director or something. Someone to help him with the little things. That opens the door to a truly epic Superman movie.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
How does MoS fail in powers display?

We see his super strength, speed, invulnerability, flight, heat vision and his super senses all applied in combat. Only thing missing was freeze breath.

Character attributes displayed?

freeze breath could be shown in the sequel

Pretty sure it will.

TBH I couldn't care less about freeze breath.