Hajj..... in Mecca

Originally posted by MuslimForLife
I never thought I would actually be saying this, but I recently renounced Islam, and I'm now staunchly against my former Religion. But I don't know what to believe in now.

Cheers. Good for you. Welcome to intellectual and spiritual freedom. I know it's no easy task to renounce Islam given the threats of violence and, of course, often times family playing a big role. So I sincerely mean congratulations.

Change your name to MuslimNoMore? 😉

Btw, it's okay to not believe in anything in particular. Be open to reality.

Supra, **** off you trolling creep.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
dur

You keep repeating the same strawmen and false analogies and you refuse to understand how we evolved without any divine intervention. Scientists figured it out: it's evolution by natural selection. It's a natural process devoid of any superbeing. Even if it SEEMS impossible or unlikely to you, that is simply an appeal to incredulity (a logical fallacy) and is not evidence of anything other than your ignorance. It is nonetheless the explanation for the diversity of life on earth.

It's neither a strawman nor a false analogy. Sure there is logic behind the process. I get that. But you ignore, or simply don't appreciate the odds of that process taking us from single celled organisms to the species of free thinking robots powered by supercomputers that we are today.

Neither has anyone here addressed how/why the survival programming came into being, or where life came from, or where the stars and universe formed from.

You said to refer to another science and go study it, meaning you have no response yourself. You also saying here that "scientists figured it out", seems to imply we should be brainwashed morons who just accept the evolution narrative and completely throw out the notion of GOD, which is still by far the simplest explanation to all of the above.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
You don't have to be an atheist to recognize evolution by natural selection.

But you do have to give at least half a shit about what's true about reality.

Because if God/Allah DID "design" this existence it's in fact a really terrible and cruel design giving kids cancer and making earthquakes and other terrible natural disasters, awful genetic disorders, etc. God people always seem to miss the big flaws in the design. An evolutionary perspective perfectly accounts for these things, whereas an omniscient and omnipotent creator does not...

Speaking of which, I'm not sure about Islam (and I'm actually curious about it), but Christianity has a convenient explanation for it, in case the flock asks questions. "The fall" of man is to blame. Everything was perfect before.

A whole other topic, as this is about the moral nature of GOD.

But in Islam it's all about trials human face in this world. We were never promised that this world was Paradise.

Originally posted by MuslimForLife
I never thought I would actually be saying this, but I recently renounced Islam, and I'm now staunchly against my former Religion. But I don't know what to believe in now.

May I ask what put you off, as your username suggests you were quite an enthusiastic Muslim not too long ago.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Cheers. Good for you. Welcome to intellectual and spiritual freedom. I know it's no easy task to renounce Islam given the threats of violence and, of course, often times family playing a big role. So I sincerely mean congratulations.

Change your name to MuslimNoMore? 😉

Btw, it's okay to not believe in anything in particular. Be open to reality.

Relax, most muslims don't care.

Heck I've got a few cousins who openly declare they're not muslim. Literally no one cares.

Atheists exist everywhere. Including all over the muslim world.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
A whole other topic, as this is about the moral nature of GOD.

But in Islam it's all about trials human face in this world. We were never promised that this world was Paradise.

That's genuinely interesting and I was curious to know. It's not too dissimilar to Christianity, though, it seems. Thanks.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Relax, most muslims don't care.

Heck I've got a few cousins who openly declare they're not muslim. Literally no one cares.

Atheists exist everywhere. Including all over the muslim world.

Depends on where you live as to whether you can "relax" or not. Are you really that ignorant of your own religion? I'm glad you're a gentle, soft Muslim, but some Muslims actually follow their holy books and think apostates should be killed. And another smaller subset of those will do it themselves.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
It's neither a strawman nor a false analogy. Sure there is logic behind the process. I get that. But you ignore, or simply don't appreciate the odds of that process taking us from single celled organisms to the species of free thinking robots powered by supercomputers that we are today.

Neither has anyone here addressed how/why the survival programming came into being, or where life came from, or where the stars and universe formed from.

You said to refer to another science and go study it, meaning you have no response yourself. You also saying here that "scientists figured it out", seems to imply we should be brainwashed morons who just accept the evolution narrative and completely throw out the notion of GOD, which is still by far the simplest explanation to all of the above.

(It's very hard to ignore the fact that you keep calling us "free thinking robots powered by supercomputers" so unironically. You realize we're not actually robots, right? We're biological organisms, hence your false analogy and yes it IS a strawman that you keep setting up because even you admitted that evolution is not just "chance"😉.

"God" provides no answer, only more questions and is just a placeholder for ignorance. It has no explanatory power or insight. What DOES have explanatory power and insight is the theory of evolution which you clearly refuse to educate your self on. I'm not your personal Evolutionary Science teacher, and am far from an expert, but I've studied it enough to know that it's true. The internet is at your disposal. Like I said, if you wanted to learn, nothing could stop you. But appealing to "science" is not just an appeal to authority fallacy. It is an appeal to MULTIPLE disciplines that have confirmed it as the prevailing explanation on the matter. Geology, paleontology, embryology, psychology, comparative anatomy, DNA, species distribution, etc. and it is even observed on a small time scale (micro evolution -- And to accept micro evolution and not macro evolution is to believe in inches, but not yards or miles, or to believe in centimeters, but not meters and kilometers). Your incredulity on "but survival instinct" and "but how did life start?" changes none of the facts confirmed by every major scientific discipline. It's fine to have questions like that. It's great. But it does no good to call it "God" because that stops inquiry. I'm sure you are thankful when you go to the doctor that the medical researches didn't stop at their bamboozlement and call it "GOD."

Two of the biggest smoking guns on human evolution are Chromosome 2 and Endogenous Retroviruses shared by humans and chimps...

zi8FfMBYCkk&t=

oXfDF5Ew3Gc&t=0s

And the key takeaway here is the predictive power of the science. They made a prediction, tested it, and sure enough: boom... it's true. Explaining something with "GOD" doesn't have any such predictive power.

Oh, but I didn't do the research on Chromosome 2 or Endogenous Retroviruses myself? So I can't appeal to "science." Dur... grow up.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech

Depends on where you live as to whether you can "relax" or not. Are you really that ignorant of your own religion? I'm glad you're a gentle, soft Muslim, but some Muslims actually follow their holy books and think apostates should be killed. And another smaller subset of those will do it themselves.

That wouldn't be following their holy book at all though (there's one "Holy" Book we have, the others are secondary sources).

The Quran in fact states the opposite.

2:256 "There's no compulsion in Religion"

109:6 Say: "You have your way and I have mine"

So don't do a Sam Harris and start pretending you understand our religion better than we do.

Now there are extreme apostacy laws in some countries. That stems from literally one vague Hadith that contradicts the Quran and Muhammad's own example. So that needs to be fought against. That said, the death penalty being used for it isn't as common as you seem to be making out.

And LMAO at people implementing it themselves. Yeah those people are called criminals. And terrorists. Jeez.

As for where I live, believe you me I know more muslims than you from more countries. Atheists are everywhere, and they're not being murdered on mass like you seem to think.

ISIS and other extremists group follow a plausible interpretation of the texts. Otherwise they wouldn't exist.

I never said atheists are "being murdered on mass." I implied that apostates (big difference if you understand words) in certain countries often have to fear for their lives. That sounds like a compulsion in religion to me. Contradiction and terrible interpretation from dogmatic religious believers... who would have thought...

Originally posted by Patient_Leech

(It's very hard to ignore the fact that you keep calling us "free thinking robots powered by supercomputers" so unironically. You realize we're not actually robots, right? We're biological organisms, hence your false analogy and yes it IS a strawman that you keep setting up because even you admitted that evolution is not just "chance"😉.

I did say "Biological" robots at first.

It's good you noticed I keep repeating that, because it was to get through to you how amazing that end result is. Really think about it.

You say biological is completely different to mechanical. But how did biological life start? Chemicals came together did they not? Amino acids/proteins?

IOW life came from non-life. Think about that, and think about how complex a single cell is, let alone a human being.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
"God" provides no answer, only more questions and is just a placeholder for ignorance.

It absolutely answers all of it. The Universe, how life came about, how organisms evolved. All of it. A simple explanation. On the other hand you're putting your blind faith in secular scientists, which you can't even explain to me in a debate as you admit below.

.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
What DOES have explanatory power and insight is the theory of evolution which you clearly refuse to educate your self on. I'm not your personal Evolutionary Science teacher, and am far from an expert, but I've studied it enough to know that it's true.

LMAO Do you not see how bad an argument this is in a GOD debate?

Just switch it the other way around. It's like me saying "What DOES have explanatory power and insight is Religion which you refuse to educate your self on. I'm not your personal Theologian, and am far from an expert, but I've studied it enough to know that it's true."

Do you see how absurd that sounds now in swaying me to your way of thinking. If I was coming out with rhetoric like that then I really would be Methneo !

I just would have thought when you're THIS Anti-God, like completely convinced there's no way there's a GOD, then you probably would have thought of through these things yourself enough to argue them before coming to that strong a conclusion.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Your incredulity on "but survival instinct" and "but how did life start?" changes none of the facts confirmed by every major scientific discipline.

It's survival programming that directs mutations via natural selection.

Seems far far more indicative to me of design.

And calm down there with what's confirmed by every major scientific discipline. Because no science has confirmed that any of this happened without a Designer. Science just tries to understand the process but can't say definitively if it's by design or not. humans and chimps...
We can still use our own wisdom to form our own opinion/conclusion on these things.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
It's fine to have questions like that. It's great. But it does no good to call it "God" because that stops inquiry. I'm sure you are thankful when you go to the doctor that the medical researches didn't stop at their bamboozlement and call it "GOD."

Good job I'm not against any kind of medical or scientific advancement then?

Science will always discover new things, but we only have our lifetimes to make our own conclusions on life.

Having said that, you know we don't know for sure that Gravity is a thing right? It's simply the most simple explanation to why we stay on the Earth.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
And the key takeaway here is the predictive power of the science. They made a prediction, tested it, and sure enough: boom... it's true. Explaining something with "GOD" doesn't have any such predictive power.

Yeah but you can only test it on a tiny scale.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Oh, but I didn't do the research on Chromosome 2 or Endogenous Retroviruses myself? So I can't appeal to "science." Dur... grow up.

Again you're COMPLETELY Convinced that there's no GOD. Yet Evolution alone doesn't even come close to proving that. So having that Strong a conviction I would have thought that you did know a sufficient amount of all of it. How the Universe came about, how the Earth came to be, and the forces between the Earth, Moon and Sun are perfect for our being here, and how life began, with the survival programming and the remarkable ability to mutate (over millions of years) into a species of free thinking "biological" robots powered by supercomputers 😛

FYI I'll watch the videos you've posted later. Just for learning and out of curiosity.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
LMAO Do you not see how bad an argument this is in a GOD debate?

Just switch it the other way around. It's like me saying "What DOES have explanatory power and insight is Religion which you refuse to educate your self on. I'm not your personal Theologian, and am far from an expert, but I've studied it enough to know that it's true."

Dude, fu#k all way off. You kept complaining about me telling you to look up some science like you want me to regurgitate all evolutionary science in my own words. So that was an introduction to me providing some key proofs and you quoted it out of context like it was my main point. That's obnoxious, but not unexpected from the intellectually dishonest religious.

So f#ck all the way off unless you want to be real.

And for the record I've never been a positive anti-god atheist.

I am, however, 99.9% sure the God of the Bible and/or the Koran don't exist.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech

But appealing to "science" is not just an appeal to authority fallacy. It is an appeal to MULTIPLE disciplines that have confirmed it as the prevailing explanation on the matter. Geology, paleontology, embryology, psychology, comparative anatomy, DNA, species distribution, etc. and it is even observed on a small time scale (micro evolution -- And to accept micro evolution and not macro evolution is to believe in inches, but not yards or miles, or to believe in centimeters, but not meters and kilometers). Your incredulity on "but survival instinct" and "but how did life start?" changes none of the facts confirmed by every major scientific discipline. It's fine to have questions like that. It's great. But it does no good to call it "God" because that stops inquiry. I'm sure you are thankful when you go to the doctor that the medical researches didn't stop at their bamboozlement and call it "GOD."

This is certainly one of your stronger arguments. Although grouping psychology into it loses you points, because the conclusions from that you could see the way you want to. You could see it as God given instincts to survive, or instincts that have kept us surviving through an evolutionary process.

In fact conclusions from a lot of those sciences can be viewed in a subjective way.

The micro evolution (again a strong point) I was aware of, and is a valid point. But bacteria mutating isn't close to convincing enough to believe that eyes and brains developed without an end goal or designer in place.

And like we have discussed, none of that would disprove God on it's own anyway. Because human evolution is just a tiny spec in the miracle of us being here.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
How the Universe came about, how the Earth came to be, and the forces between the Earth, Moon and Sun are perfect for our being here, and how life began, with the survival programming and the remarkable ability to mutate (over millions of years) into a species of free thinking "biological" robots powered by supercomputers 😛

The sheer number of stars and planets and galaxies (that boggle the mind) make the opportunities for all the parameters to be right inevitable. It's why many believe there's almost NO WAY there aren't other life-forms on other planets out there. There's just so goddamn many opportunities and so much time that has elapsed. Tons of time and tons of dice rolled. It was going to happen.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
...none of that would disprove God on it's own anyway...

And I never said it would. But it was a big part of my deconversion as a fundamentalist Christian because they indoctrinate you from a young age with many of the same fallacies and lies that you've been repeating here. We are literally trained to shut off the brain if we hear "millions of years."

Originally posted by Darth Thor
On the other hand you're putting your blind faith in secular scientists...

Accusing me of blind faith. Hilarious coming from a believer since you're using it as a bad thing.

Do tell the lack of blind faith that you employ to trust that the Prophet is true and good and rose to heaven... 🙄

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yeah but you can only test it on a tiny scale.

Not exactly true. It can be investigated the same way you investigate the evidence at a crime scene with verifiable data...

Originally posted by Darth Thor
FYI I'll watch the videos you've posted later. Just for learning and out of curiosity.

Good. You'll learn some of that crime scene evidence, to continue with that analogy.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Cheers. Good for you. Welcome to intellectual and spiritual freedom. I know it's no easy task to renounce Islam given the threats of violence and, of course, often times family playing a big role. So I sincerely mean congratulations.

Change your name to MuslimNoMore? 😉

Btw, it's okay to not believe in anything in particular. Be open to reality.

Thanks! I don't think I can get my username changed, I've heard that this site stopped responding to requests for username changes years ago.

I find myself leaning towards secularism and human rights.

FYI I've been ill for over a week.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Dude, fu#k all way off. You kept complaining about me telling you to look up some science like you want me to regurgitate all evolutionary science in my own words. So that was an introduction to me providing some key proofs and you quoted it out of context like it was my main point. That's obnoxious, but not unexpected from the intellectually dishonest religious.

So f#ck all the way off unless you want to be real.

And for the record I've never been a positive anti-god atheist.

I am, however, 99.9% sure the God of the Bible and/or the Koran don't exist.

Yes I would prefer you regurgitate them in your own words, then you can post links/vids as proof. Otherwise it's really difficult to have a debate. If we just keep posting vids at each other then that's our vids debating each other.

Well forgive my assumption, but you have been arguing as if Evolution disproves the existence of God. Especially seemed so given that's all I've been arguing here so far and haven't brought Religion into it.

The point of twisting that argument back on you was to show how impossible it is to have an honest debate that way.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech

Accusing me of blind faith. Hilarious coming from a believer since you're using it as a bad thing.

Do tell the lack of blind faith that you employ to trust that the Prophet is true and good and rose to heaven... 🙄

I was being purposely ironic with that. Point being you have to have a basic understanding of your arguments, and be capable of putting them in your own words to debate them. Otherwise you would give the impression it's blind faith in scientists, just as religous people can have blind faith in their religion.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech

Two of the biggest smoking guns on human evolution are Chromosome 2 and Endogenous Retroviruses shared by humans and chimps...

zi8FfMBYCkk&t=

oXfDF5Ew3Gc&t=0s

And the key takeaway here is the predictive power of the science. They made a prediction, tested it, and sure enough: boom... it's true. Explaining something with "GOD" doesn't have any such predictive power.

Oh, but I didn't do the research on Chromosome 2 or Endogenous Retroviruses myself? So I can't appeal to "science." Dur... grow up.

Have to admit that really had me scratching my head. More so about why this isn't the first point atheists bring up. Quit saying "it's not for me to teach you" and just get to your damn point/proof in future lol.

As for a rebuttal, will admit it's hard, and not finding many convincing ones. But will just say that many peer reviewed papers have shown those Endogenous Retroviruses to be behind essential functions. So could still just be part of our design. The coincidence of them being placed in the same part of our genome, would work if it's by design, because it's not a coincidence.

But I do need to point out the number of miraculous coincidences you do accept in the starting and evolution of our universe, our planet and all life on Earth, the most incredible of which are Humans. Yet are pointing to evidence in this case saying it would be too much of a coincidence not to be from common ancestory.

Also I'll leave you with this:

YouTube video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNQPQkV3nhw

Proof that our DNA is traced back to exactly One Human Male and One Human Female.

So in short evolution itself wouldn't disprove God anymore than the Big Bang Theory. Science explains the How of the Natural world. Not the metaphysical, (The Why).

Originally posted by MuslimForLife
Thanks! I don't think I can get my username changed, I've heard that this site stopped responding to requests for username changes years ago.

I find myself leaning towards secularism and human rights.

Bro you didn't say what put you off the Religion.

If we were designed, there has to be a designer. If we were created, there has to be a creator.

The problem religious people seem to ignore is their assumptions that we were designed or created.

There is no scientific evidence whatsoever to suggest we were designed or created and the only argument given is "look how complex we are."

I'm sorry, but just because something is too complex for you to comprehend, doesn't make it divine or intended by some form of consciousness you got out of a book written by a bunch of cnuts.

Originally posted by Blakemore
If we were designed, there has to be a designer. If we were created, there has to be a creator.

The problem religious people seem to ignore is their assumptions that we were designed or created.

There is no scientific evidence whatsoever to suggest we were designed or created and the only argument given is "look how complex we are."

I'm sorry, but just because something is too complex for you to comprehend, doesn't make it divine or intended by some form of consciousness you got out of a book written by a bunch of cnuts.

It's not for science to determine that. It's more a philosophical debate. Although science has a role with the necessary being argument.

Believing in GOD is an Occam's Razor (simplest explanation). And it's scientifically proven we have an innate belief in GOD:

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/it-is-natural-to-believe-in-god-says-oxford-study-455645

So it's more than just "oh we don't want to think about how complex answers could be to how life and the Universe came about"

And again, when you see a complex machine, you do assume someone's made it. And would be the same if you found one on Mars.

So saying it's all a complex accident isn't convincing to me at all. Just like most scientists wouldn't accept it's an accident or coincidence that human and chimpanzees share some of the same ancient retroviruses.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
It's not for science to determine that. It's more a philosophical debate. Although science has a role with the necessary being argument.

Believing in GOD is an Occam's Razor (simplest explanation). And it's scientifically proven we have an innate belief in GOD:

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/it-is-natural-to-believe-in-god-says-oxford-study-455645

So it's more than just "oh we don't want to think about how complex answers could be to how life and the Universe came about"

And again, when you see a complex machine, you do assume someone's made it. And would be the same if you found one on Mars.

So saying it's all a complex accident isn't convincing to me at all. Just like most scientists wouldn't accept it's an accident or coincidence that human and chimpanzees share some of the same ancient retroviruses.

Whatever "created" the universe, doesn't exist, by definition.

Originally posted by Blakemore

Whatever "created" the universe, doesn't exist, by definition.

That's... not true at all. I don't think any philosopher has ever said that.

Everything in this Universe comes from something. If not then that would be a Fundamental particle or a Necessary being.

The Big Bang theory is the one with the most evidence behind it. If the Big Bang was a little too powerful, or not quite powerful enough, then the Universe wouldn't exist.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
That's... not true at all. I don't think any philosopher has ever said that.

Everything in this Universe comes from something. If not then that would be a Fundamental particle or a Necessary being.

The Big Bang theory is the one with the most evidence behind it. If the Big Bang was a little too powerful, or not quite powerful enough, then the Universe wouldn't exist.

This doesn't prove the singularity was the beginning of space and time, nor does it even suggest it came from anywhere, as space and time of its "creation" has no scientific understanding, and anything claiming to be is not accepted as science. Even Kent Hovind admits he "believes" in God, not that there is any science behind it. Even you admit it.

When I said doesn't exist, I meant in the scientific context. All we have are beliefs.

Now, you're arguing people naturally believe in God. Debatable, but also admits it only exists in our mind.