Originally posted by Q99
Mm, Gohan's has no time limit. Until he mysteriously misplaces it between shows, it's effectively his base form.
I didn't realize that SSJ4 had a time limit.
Yeah, it being an unlocking of Gohan's potential is why I wouldn't really classify it as an amp akin to the Super Saiyan transformations, but on the other hand, he cannot access the Super Saiyan forms.
But the reason I said SSJ4 was superior was because it could over-ride the magic of the Black Star Dragon Balls.
Originally posted by Q99
Not a very strict one, but it does use up power and thus can only be sustained so long. During the Omega Shenron fight Goku was in it too long and reverted to kid mode.
Ahh, right.
Gohan's power-up should technically have a time-limit as well though, as it should also use up Gohan's unlocked energy.
Here's something crazy to think about...
In GT, Goku stated that base form Rildo was MORE powerful than Majin Buu-- yet Goku was every bit his equal as a base level Saiyan. ie. base level Goku=/>Majin Buu. After Goku transformed into a SSJ1, Rildo stated that his power increased "a hundred fold" (even though the DBZ Daizenshuu states a base level Saiyan's PL increases 50x when they transform into a SSJ1, GT is a different entity entirely.) ie. in GT, Goku was over 100x stronger than Majin Buu as a SSJ1. Absolutely crazy.
Anyway, if we then use the same multipliers given to us in the DBZ Daizenshuu, then a SSJ2's PL is 2x that of a SSJ1, and a SSJ3's PL is 4x that of a SSJ2(and those are likely underestimations, given that GT's multipliers seem to be well above Z's.) As for the PL of a SSJ4, who knows? Is it 2x stronger than a SSJ3? 10x stronger? Your guess is as good as mine-- all I know is that Goku was literally in awe of the power he possessed as a SSJ4.
Either way, there is no feasible way that Gotenks and Gohan can even approach SSJ4 Goku's power, imo. Frankly, I doubt very much that Goku would even need to access his SSJ4 transformation to beat the duo.
Originally posted by Galan007
Here's something crazy to think about...In GT, Goku stated that base form Rildo was MORE powerful than Majin Buu-- yet Goku was every bit his equal as a base level Saiyan. ie. base level Goku=/>Majin Buu. After Goku transformed into a SSJ1, Rildo stated that his power increased "a hundred fold" (even though the DBZ Daizenshuu states a base level Saiyan's PL increases 50x when they transform into a SSJ1, GT is a different entity entirely.) ie. in GT, Goku was over 100x stronger than Majin Buu as a SSJ1. Absolutely crazy.
Anyway, if we then use the same multipliers given to us in the DBZ Daizenshuu, then a SSJ2's PL is 2x that of a SSJ1, and a SSJ3's PL is 4x that of a SSJ2(and those are likely underestimations, given that GT's multipliers seem to be well above Z's.) As for the PL of a SSJ4, who knows? Is it 2x stronger than a SSJ3? 10x stronger? Your guess is as good as mine-- all I know is that Goku was literally in awe of the power he possessed as a SSJ4.
Either way, there is no feasible way that Gotenks and Gohan can even approach SSJ4 Goku's power, imo. Frankly, I doubt very much that Goku would even need to access his SSJ4 transformation to beat the duo.
I don't think it would be as low as 2x SSJ3 honestly. Super Baby Vegeta (I forget which form) was kicking SSJ3 Goku's ass up and down the street without breaking a sweat. Once Goku transformed, he instead kicked Baby Vegeta's ass up and down the street without breaking a sweat. Baby Vegeta had to transform into a Golden Oozaru in order to match and overpower SSJ4 Goku.
Anyway, yeah GT Base Goku was crazy powerful when compared to his DBZ levels. Like I previously said, he stomped Final Form Frieza and Perfect Cell by himself.
Originally posted by Demonic PhoenixVery true.
I don't think it would be as low as 2x SSJ3 honestly. Super Baby Vegeta (I forget which form) was kicking SSJ3 Goku's ass up and down the street without breaking a sweat. Once Goku transformed, he instead kicked Baby Vegeta's ass up and down the street without breaking a sweat. Baby Vegeta had to transform into a Golden Oozaru in order to match and overpower SSJ4 Goku.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix👆
Anyway, yeah GT Base Goku was crazy powerful when compared to his DBZ levels. Like I previously said, he stomped Final Form Frieza and Perfect Cell by himself.
He beat them effortlessly... Like it was sport. But considering his base form was equal to Majin Buu, I supposed it makes sense that he'd beat Frieza/Cell so easily.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero👆
Just read what the others have already posted Juggs... The power scale gets thrown off so badly in GT.
It seems that some people might be basing the theoretical PL of a SSJ4 off Goku's PL in DBZ, which is obviously quite faulty. Like I mentioned above, Goku was vastly more powerful in GT than he was in Z. In fact, it can be argued that Goku's base-level Saiyan form in GT was just as strong as his SSJ3 form was in Z---Beating Frieza and Cell as a base-level Saiyan like they were fodder, matching Rildo(who was more powerful than Majin Buu) as a base-level Saiyan, increasing his power "a hundred fold" just by transforming into a SSJ1, etc.
Like it or not, Goku had logically become hundredS of times more powerful by the time GT rolled around. Frankly, I believe Vegito is the only Z-era being whose power would hold a candle to SSJ4 Goku. Just my humble opinion.
Originally posted by Galan007
👆It seems that some people might be basing the theoretical PL of a SSJ4 off Goku's PL in DBZ, which is obviously quite faulty. Like I mentioned above, Goku was vastly more powerful in GT than he was in Z. In fact, it can be argued that Goku's base-level Saiyan form in GT was just as strong as his SSJ3 form was in Z---Beating Frieza and Cell as a base-level Saiyan like they were fodder, matching Rildo(who was more powerful than Majin Buu) as a base-level Saiyan, increasing his power "a hundred fold" just by transforming into a SSJ1, etc.
Like it or not, Goku had logically become hundredS of times more powerful by the time GT rolled around. Frankly, I believe Vegito is the only Z-era being whose power would hold a candle to SSJ4 Goku. Just my humble opinion.
Yeah...
Makes me actually wonder about SSJ4 Gogeta's actual PL... I mean that guy was effortlessly spanking being that run 2 regular SSJ4's through the ringer... Gogeta never put any actual effort in that fight, the 10 minutes he existed anyway.
Originally posted by Galan007
Very true.👆
He beat them effortlessly... Like it was sport. But considering his base form was equal to Majin Buu, I supposed it makes sense that he'd beat Frieza/Cell so easily.
Yeah. Kind of sad actually, trouncing two villains who previously pushed his shit in, but I suppose that's to be expected when the levels of power skyrocket by such an insane degree.
I'm just curious. Which Buu did Goku specifically refer to? The first Buu we saw, or Kid Buu?
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Yeah...Makes me actually wonder about SSJ4 Gogeta's actual PL... I mean that guy was effortlessly spanking being that run 2 regular SSJ4's through the ringer... Gogeta never put any actual effort in that fight, the 10 minutes he existed anyway.
And he effortlessly converted said being's most powerful attack...with a kick.
Originally posted by Darkstorm ZeroYeah. The DBZ Daizenshuu states that fusions are essentially like multiplying power levels together. ie. if Goku's PL=1,000 and Vegeta's PL=1,000, a fusion between them would possess a PL of 1,000,000.
Yeah...Makes me actually wonder about SSJ4 Gogeta's actual PL... I mean that guy was effortlessly spanking being that run 2 regular SSJ4's through the ringer... Gogeta never put any actual effort in that fight, the 10 minutes he existed anyway.
...And that was with Z's multipliers. GT's multipliers seemed to be significantly greater.
Originally posted by Demonic PhoenixDunno. All Goku said is that Rildo was "even more powerful than Majin Buu." My guess would be Kid Buu, though.
I'm just curious. Which Buu did Goku specifically refer to? The first Buu we saw, or Kid Buu?
Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah. The DBZ Daizenshuu states that fusions are essentially like multiplying power levels together. ie. if Goku's PL=1,000 and Vegeta's PL=1,000, a fusion between them would possess a PL of 1,000,000....And that was with Z's multipliers. GT's multipliers seemed to be significantly greater.
If I were to hazard a guess, given that Omega Shenron was effortlessly trouncing both Goku & Vegeta simultaneously, and the only technique of any threat to him from either fighter was the Universal Spirit Bomb (Which is a huge game ender anyway), and the fuison doing a complete 180 to Gogeta effortlessly trouncing Omega... I would say that the PL x PL is fairly consistent... Perhaps only slightly more, perhaps PLx2 x PLx2?
It's really guesswork at that point, because we don;t know what the SSJ4 multiplier is over SSJ3, nor do we know just how much stronger Omega was over Syn Shenron. That and, the only comparables we ever really got came from Rildo and the Cell/Frieza fight.
Come to think of it, the massive jump 17 got as Super 17 must have been really wonky too... I mean 2 17's, less powerful than an Acended SSJ (Vegeta during Imperfect Cell Saga) combined to make a being more powerful than Gold Oozaru Baby... That multiplier is F**ked up!