The Hyuga Clan predated Rikidou Sennin

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Hey look, I don't care if you theories to your hearts content kid, but don't EVER treat your theories as canon facts until you have actual evidence.

Oh, and don't try to outline what I know or don't know kid, all that does is prove your an idiot.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
wtf? actually, i'm glad i know nothing of that

.....

...

phuck, had to read it

favorite part is underlined. I have a lot of questions, sir

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Oh now you are calling me an idiot and a kid eh? (even though you don't know the full meaning as to what theory nor fact means) (And yet you use those words so much when you have a disagreement conserning something) ha! pathetic. The meaning to the word theory has been largely misinterpreted by you when the only things i have been stating are Facts.

So yea, you just have a theory. There is not one single basis for Hyuuga being older than The Great Sage. Hyuuga will never get that kinda storyline either to prove it. They may be the oldest clan in Konoha, but that's cause they marry within their clan too so, and because the oldest clans (Senju, and Uchiha) are all but dead. And they never said the oldest clan in the world, just of Konoha. If they ever said the world you may have had some valid point. And they use chakra based taijutsu. Their taijutsu doesn't work without chakra so they can't predate the founding of Chakra...

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Oh now you are calling me an idiot and a kid eh? (even though you don't know the full meaning as to what theory nor fact means) (And yet you use those words so much when you have a disagreement conserning something) ha! pathetic. The meaning to the word theory has been largely misinterpreted by you when the only things i have been stating are Facts.

I didn't call you an idiot, what I said was: "Oh, and don't try to outline what I know or don't know kid, all that does is prove your an idiot." Thats a far cry from me saying: "You ARE an idiot." And as for me calling you kid, your obviously far too precious about your age... Almost everyone in KMC is younger than I am, you'll forgive my assumption, Kid. 😛

And once again, you are going to assume that you know what I know, and continue to brandish a false sense of security, and yet you have not a single iota of evidence at all. Debating is obviously not your strong suit, nor is manifesting evidence to turn a theory into a proven fact.

Definiotion of the word "theory".

Definition of the word "fact".

And as a bonus; Definition of the word "proof".

Read these, learn them well, and use them in the future, and do not attempt to posture with me when debating something you have not even rationalised adequately, I will mop the floor with your pithy non-replies every time.

And lets not forget that your entire reply to me is an Ad Hominem Fallacy

Originally posted by Kento
Theory - an unproved assumption

So yea, you just have a theory. There is not one single basis for Hyuuga being older than The Great Sage. Hyuuga will never get that kinda storyline either to prove it. They may be the oldest clan in Konoha, but that's cause they marry within their clan too so, and because the oldest clans (Senju, and Uchiha) are all but dead. And they never said the oldest clan in the world, just of Konoha. If they ever said the world you may have had some valid point. And they use chakra based taijutsu. Their taijutsu doesn't work without chakra so they can't predate the founding of Chakra...

Previous refferences to the said subject. (Metaphor) Someone explaining the confusing plot holes conserning something in specific with all of the pieces put together from a independent observational viewpoint. (Explanatory) And someone who has the ability to look and read for knowledge and then make a confirmation about specific judging from what he has seen or read. (Literate)

Those are all the forms of evidence. Evidence comes in. (Metaphorical) Evidence comes in. (Explanatory) And Evidence comes in. (Literacy) evidence dosen't just come in 1 form (Literacy) (As is overused to resolve the most simple and difficult of situations which includes arguements)

I used explanatory evidence conserning Idashi Uchiha's existence by using his father Idoshen as an example and proof, and that proof is that madara killed Idoshen (a person close to him) to awaken the Mangekyou Sharingan alongside Izuna Uchiha. Naruto Shippuden Episode 136.

You confuse Rikudo for the Juubi. The Juubi was the first one with Chakra and the ultimate amount not Rikudo.

It was said that Rikudo preached the way of Chakra and its usage, Ninjustu & Genjustu. And since Rikudo was preaching that would mean that there were people there to hear his preaching. (Basically There were people around and before Rikudo's time that used Chakra for purposes but was not nearly as proficient with it and alot more smaller in number) For short back during Rikudo's time him preaching Chakra was similar to preaching word of god to the vast majority of atheist. (Preaching the Spirit itself) (Chakra) But in the Naruto Universe Rikudo's preaching reached the ears of the disbelievers and chakra became a known fact as a result. And not just a supposed belief that ignorant people contradict

So you can't in any way say that the Hyuga weren't around before and during the Sage Of Six Path's time, since his wife was a hyuga woman and the mother of the 2 sons. And now since everyone knows that Naruto is the next Sage Of The Six Paths history is repeating itself, with Naruto (The next Rikudo Sennin) and with Hinata the soon to be wife of the new Sage.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I didn't call you an idiot, what I said was: "Oh, and don't try to outline what I know or don't know kid, all that does is prove your an idiot." Thats a far cry from me saying: "You ARE an idiot." And as for me calling you kid, your obviously far too precious about your age... Almost everyone in KMC is younger than I am, you'll forgive my assumption, Kid. 😛

And once again, you are going to assume that you know what I know, and continue to brandish a false sense of security, and yet you have not a single iota of evidence at all. Debating is obviously not your strong suit, nor is manifesting evidence to turn a theory into a proven fact.

Definiotion of the word "theory".

Definition of the word "fact".

And as a bonus; Definition of the word "proof".

Read these, learn them well, and use them in the future, and do not attempt to posture with me when debating something you have not even rationalised adequately, I will mop the floor with your pithy non-replies every time.

And lets not forget that your entire reply to me is an Ad Hominem Fallacy

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
No the full meaning to theory is. When a statement has been said about something specifically, and there is no evidence backing it up in all forms. For example, if there isn't something explaining a oddity in any form of evidence then its considered a (theory) and those forms of evidence also includes.

The thing here is that there IS no evidence supporting your explanation. Explanations on their own do not transform theory into fact.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Previous refferences to the said subject. (Metaphor) Someone explaining the confusing plot holes conserning something in specific with all of the pieces put together from a independent observational viewpoint. (Explanatory) And someone who has the ability to look and read for knowledge and then make a confirmation about specific judging from what he has seen or read. (Literate)

And here is where your argument falls apart. Cherry Picking Fallacy, Slippery Slope Fallacy, Genetic Fallacy, And Special Pleading Fallacy.

You are not exempt from the rules of debating, and scoring 4 logical fallacies in a row is a record for poor sportsmanship.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Those are all the forms of evidence. Evidence comes in. (Metaphorical) Evidence comes in. (Explanatory) And Evidence comes in. (Literacy) evidence dosen't just come in 1 form (Literacy) (As is overused to resolve the most simple and difficult of situations which includes arguements)

No, an explanation without logical construct is not passed as explanatory theory, nevermind expolanatory fact.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
I used explanatory evidence conserning Idashi Uchiha's existence by using his father Idoshen as an example and proof, and that proof is that madara killed Idoshen (a person close to him) to awaken the Mangekyou Sharingan alongside Izuna Uchiha. Naruto Shippuden Episode 136.

That in itself is a Genetic Fallacy argument, not to mention that this has absolutely nothing to do with why the Hyuuga could possibly predate the Sage of Six Paths, considering Madara himself is several hundred to several thousand generations after the SOSP's passing...

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
You confuse Rikudo for the Juubi. The Juubi was the first one with Chakra and the ultimate amount not Rikudo.

Chakra is the compination of two primal energy forces that give lifeforms their life force. The Juubi is not the actual source of Chakra, but raw life energy (Both spiritual and physical, the components that make Chakra.) But, it was the Sage that was the first to create Chakra in this way, and molded it into techniques that formed the basis for all ninja arts and fighting styles, which eventually lead to the modern incarnations we see in the mangas and anime today, which happen to include the Gentle Fist style of the Hyuuga clan.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
It was said that Rikudo preached the way of Chakra and its usage, Ninjustu & Genjustu. And since Rikudo was preaching that would mean that there were people there to hear his preaching. (Basically There were people around and before Rikudo's time that used Chakra for purposes but was not nearly as proficient with it and alot more smaller in number) For short back during Rikudo's time him preaching Chakra was similar to preaching word of god to the vast majority of atheist. (Preaching the Spirit itself) (Chakra) But in the Naruto Universe Rikudo's preaching reached the ears of the disbelievers and chakra became a known fact as a result. And not just a supposed belief that ignorant people contradict

Nobody claimed that the Riduko was the first human.... I'm pretty sure that the world was a chaotic place filled with near endless warfare, and thats why the Juubi became enraged.

What we are saying is that the Riduko had learned how to utilise the primal forces and mould them into Chakra, thereby inventing the modern definition of the term, and was the originator of the method. before that, people had no way to use their own energies like they do now with modern Jutsu.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
So you can't in any way say that the Hyuga weren't around before and during the Sage Of Six Path's time, since his wife was a hyuga woman and the mother of the 2 sons. And now since everyone knows that Naruto is the next Sage Of The Six Paths history is repeating itself, with Naruto (The next Rikudo Sennin) and with Hinata the soon to be wife of the new Sage.

Irrelevant Conclusion Fallacy. This entire line of thought is in no way related to your previous statement. Therefore it is not evidence for the conclusion your reaching for. And you STILL have yet to explain then how the Hyuuga learned the Gentle Fist style before the Riduko developed the method of creating and manipulating Chakra, never mind the fact that the Byakugan is specifically designed to trak Chakra, how the heck was it developed... BEFORE Chackra was even a thing?

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
How about you read the full definition of what (evidence) and (theory) truly means in my post below yours. (I have already shown evidence in the form of explanatory) (Not in the form of literacy where even a scatterbrain could understand) since you need to read & link the definitions of the 2 words you use so oftenly and to also show me, that is truly a sign of age so i wouldn't doubt you if you told me you were ancient. And you with your would-be insults are enough to make me laugh, i've heard worse insults from 14 year olds. I guess you are right about your age. But the only thing i couldn't figure out is why is. Why is it that your body kept growing and not your brain(:?

AAAAAnd we have a 2nd Ad Hominem Fallacy to your account... Along with a Reification Fallacy that covers the entire thread...

I never intended to insult you originally, I was simply pointing out that the theory your trying to push here is not a fact until it is substantiated, to which you ran off of a tangent wildly and started hurling half-assed insults and pretending you know more about debating on KMC than someone who has been here on KMC for 8 years...

And because of your retarded reply here, you can consider yourself reported for flame baiting. 🙄

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
The thing here is that there IS no evidence supporting your explanation. Explanations on their own do not transform theory into fact.

And here is where your argument falls apart. Cherry Picking Fallacy, Slippery Slope Fallacy, Genetic Fallacy, And Special Pleading Fallacy.

You are not exempt from the rules of debating, and scoring 4 logical fallacies in a row is a record for poor sportsmanship.

No, an explanation without logical construct is not passed as explanatory theory, nevermind expolanatory fact.

That in itself is a Genetic Fallacy argument, not to mention that this has absolutely nothing to do with why the Hyuuga could possibly predate the Sage of Six Paths, considering Madara himself is several hundred to several thousand generations after the SOSP's passing...

Chakra is the compination of two primal energy forces that give lifeforms their life force. The Juubi is not the actual source of Chakra, but raw life energy (Both spiritual and physical, the components that make Chakra.) But, it was the Sage that was the first to create Chakra in this way, and molded it into techniques that formed the basis for all ninja arts and fighting styles, which eventually lead to the modern incarnations we see in the mangas and anime today, which happen to include the Gentle Fist style of the Hyuuga clan.

Nobody claimed that the Riduko was the first human.... I'm pretty sure that the world was a chaotic place filled with near endless warfare, and thats why the Juubi became enraged.

What we are saying is that the Riduko had learned how to utilise the primal forces and mould them into Chakra, thereby inventing the modern definition of the term, and was the originator of the method. before that, people had no way to use their own energies like they do now with modern Jutsu.

Irrelevant Conclusion Fallacy. This entire line of thought is in no way related to your previous statement. Therefore it is not evidence for the conclusion your reaching for. And you STILL have yet to explain then how the Hyuuga learned the Gentle Fist style before the Riduko developed the method of creating and manipulating Chakra, never mind the fact that the Byakugan is specifically designed to trak Chakra, how the heck was it developed... BEFORE Chackra was even a thing?

AAAAAnd we have a 2nd Ad Hominem Fallacy to your account... Along with a Reification Fallacy that covers the entire thread...

I never intended to insult you originally, I was simply pointing out that the theory your trying to push here is not a fact until it is substantiated, to which you ran off of a tangent wildly and started hurling half-assed insults and pretending you know more about debating on KMC than someone who has been here on KMC for 8 years...

And because of your retarded reply here, you can consider yourself reported for flame baiting. 🙄

But back to the subject. I already had evidence conserning the Hyuga being before the Sage and Hinata will be proof of that after Naruto accepts her confession. But even then people will disagree for their own reasons.

Originally posted by psycho gundam

If we could all put our dicks away, please.

There's no need for baiting or flaming, guys.

Let's all calm down, m'kay?

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Im familiar with how debates work now these days, the educational system has done a good job in clouding the minds of people. I can consider my self reported for flame baiting? you provoked an arguement about me not having evidence when i did, and adding your little smart remarks on the side. But you have your opinions. but i will tell you this, if you manipulate this site's administration team. i will be forced to inact full override. But PLEASE try not to put your smart remarks in, while provoking someone before you do something very stupid 🙂

I did no such thing. What I did was point out that you have a fan theory, not an actual fact, to which you incorrectly assumed I didn't know the meaning of the terms. That in and of itself is flaming strictly speaking. You provoked, not I. And nothing I said could have been interpreted as a smart assed remark unless you are incredibly defensive.

You've brought up examples of characters not mentioned anywhere in the canon manga or the anime as an attempt to solidify your hypothesis in canon, which is not accurate. So the explanatory thesis you've conjured up is not a canon fact unless and until it is corroborated by actual in-manga quotes. Your refference to e139 of Shippuden not withstanding. You have provided no scans, aside from Kakashi's remark.

How the heck else is everyone supposed to take this? This is a serious question, because, and I'm going to be honest here, you came in out of nowhere, started spouting this around, and expecting eveyione to suddenly and spontaneously agree with you, and you ran the debate in circles when few actually did...

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
But back to the subject. I already had evidence conserning the Hyuga being before the Sage and Hinata will be proof of that after Naruto accepts her confession. But even then people will disagree for their own reasons.

Circular reasoning fallacy. Even if Naruto did accept Hinata's affections, that is still not proof that Ridoku's wife is a Hyuuga ancestor.

===========================================

Look, I can invent a hypothesis that you can use that actuially has more support in canon than what you have used here if you want.

Here, try this on for size and see if it fits: Ridoku's wife may very well be a Hyuuga. We obviously cannot prove this beyond all reasonable doubt, but the line that the Sharingan is a mutated off-shoot of the Byakugan stated by Kakashi could have it's roots here too, because the mixture of the byakugan and the Rinnegan may result in the Sharingan's creation.

The Uchiha ancestor's dojutsu actually shares traits of all 3 of the infamous dojutsu, the near circular spiral is obviously influenced by the Rinnegan's circular pattern, whule retaining the spiraling swirls of a Mangekyou Sharingan, yet it's colour is that of the Byakugan.

However, we do not know whom thys hyuuga woman is, nor can we factor in why this should matter in the slightest, as the hyuuga obviously still has pure blodline members that have no relation to the Ridoku.

See here? i just invented a thesis that stands on less shaky ground and does not need to introduce more than one theoretical character to substantiate. Yet I do not toute this thesis of mine as proven canon fact, because outside of explanation, I cannot prove she even existed. Your these, which stands on less stable ground by introducing more unknwn elements than mine does, cannot be taken at face value of an explanantion either, no matter how rational it seems to you.

And on top of all that, you never addressed any point I raised at all, thus making your reply a non-answer. We accept your concession.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I did no such thing. What I did was point out that you have a fan theory, not an actual fact, to which you incorrectly assumed I didn't know the meaning of the terms. That in and of itself is flaming strictly speaking. You provoked, not I. And nothing I said could have been interpreted as a smart assed remark unless you are incredibly defensive.

You've brought up examples of characters not mentioned anywhere in the canon manga or the anime as an attempt to solidify your hypothesis in canon, which is not accurate. So the explanatory thesis you've conjured up is not a canon fact unless and until it is corroborated by actual in-manga quotes. Your refference to e139 of Shippuden not withstanding. You have provided no scans, aside from Kakashi's remark.

How the heck else is everyone supposed to take this? This is a serious question, because, and I'm going to be honest here, you came in out of nowhere, started spouting this around, and expecting eveyione to suddenly and spontaneously agree with you, and you ran the debate in circles when few actually did...

Circular reasoning fallacy. Even if Naruto did accept Hinata's affections, that is still not proof that Ridoku's wife is a Hyuuga ancestor.

===========================================

Look, I can invent a hypothesis that you can use that actuially has more support in canon than what you have used here if you want.

Here, try this on for size and see if it fits: Ridoku's wife may very well be a Hyuuga. We obviously cannot prove this beyond all reasonable doubt, but the line that the Sharingan is a mutated off-shoot of the Byakugan stated by Kakashi could have it's roots here too, because the mixture of the byakugan and the Rinnegan may result in the Sharingan's creation.

The Uchiha ancestor's dojutsu actually shares traits of all 3 of the infamous dojutsu, the near circular spiral is obviously influenced by the Rinnegan's circular pattern, whule retaining the spiraling swirls of a Mangekyou Sharingan, yet it's colour is that of the Byakugan.

However, we do not know whom thys hyuuga woman is, nor can we factor in why this should matter in the slightest, as the hyuuga obviously still has pure blodline members that have no relation to the Ridoku.

See here? i just invented a thesis that stands on less shaky ground and does not need to introduce more than one theoretical character to substantiate. Yet I do not toute this thesis of mine as proven canon fact, because outside of explanation, I cannot prove she even existed. Your these, which stands on less stable ground by introducing more unknwn elements than mine does, cannot be taken at face value of an explanantion either, no matter how rational it seems to you.

And on top of all that, you never addressed any point I raised at all, thus making your reply a non-answer. We accept your concession.

And now since Naruto & Hinata are together, that proves that Rikudo Sennin had a Hyuga wife and history repeated itself with Naruto being the new Sage and Hinata being the source for new birth or rebirth of the Uchiha clan. This supposed arguement is closed i was right and everyone else (including) you were wrong.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
OF COURSE you can't prove it because it wasn't shown nor said LITERALLY, and you go solely by literacy as a way of confirming evidence and undisclosed events. No you did put provocative insults on the sides of what you were saying and claiming it to be logic as a way of covering it. (you are not slick) i said that Rikudo's wife is a hyuga because it was already said that the origins of the Uchiha derived from the Hyuga, meaning that the first Uchiha Hikuja Sennin was brought into the world by a hyuga woman, a.k.a common sense. Another thing is Kishimoto was never going to confirm that Rikudo's wife was a hyuga, because of so then that would have counted as a spoiler twords Naruto & Hinata soon to be relationship, and Kishimoto is known for confusing people with puzzles more then he is known for giving enlightenment. Thats why he didn't say anything conserning Rikudo's Hyuga wife, to keep people debating about who naruto was going to be with. and to prevent altering the romantic part of naruto's storyline. 😎

Ok, I'm going to break this down, as easily as I possibly can... because you are simply not getting it....

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
OF COURSE you can't prove it because it wasn't shown nor said LITERALLY, and you go solely by literacy as a way of confirming evidence and undisclosed events.

Because the fictional peice in question (IE: The Naruto manga) IS literacy based (IE: as in you Read it), therein literally lies your problem. All the evidence comes from the said literacy peice. You can fabricate theories all day my friend, there is no shame in this, fanfic writers do this all the time. But unless your theory is backed up beyond all reasonable doubt within the manga, then you literally only posess a theory that is non-canon. I'm sorry, but no amount of wordplay you can summon is going to change the burden of proof that is enforced in every debating forum on the net.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
No you did put provocative insults on the sides of what you were saying and claiming it to be logic as a way of covering it. (you are not slick)

No, and I'm not intendingn to be slick, I'm being blunt, up front, and honest. I don't require deception to bat away this kind of fallacy riddled debate your farting into existance. If your taking anything I have said (And I have not directly insulted you, only your non-argument, nice try) as provocative, then perhaps you should re-examine your theory before attempting to cover up it's deficiencies in fallacies.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
i said that Rikudo's wife is a hyuga because it was already said that the origins of the Uchiha derived from the Hyuga, meaning that the first Uchiha Hikuja Sennin was brought into the world by a hyuga woman, a.k.a common sense.

Your relying on a hyperbolic statement from a fallible character, and you've even got the context wrong.... Kakashi was solely reffering to Konoha with that line, not the whole planet...

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Another thing is Kishimoto was never going to confirm that Rikudo's wife was a hyuga, because of so then that would have counted as a spoiler twords Naruto & Hinata soon to be relationship, and Kishimoto is known for confusing people with puzzles more then he is known for giving enlightenment. Thats why he didn't say anything conserning Rikudo's Hyuga wife, to keep people debating about who naruto was going to be with. and to prevent altering the romantic part of naruto's storyline. 😎

Circular logic again, your argument above this one would require revealing that right away wouldn't it... You can't have it both ways SWL.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
And now since Naruto & Hinata are together, that proves that Rikudo Sennin had a Hyuga wife and history repeated itself with Naruto being the new Sage and Hinata being the source for new birth or rebirth of the Uchiha clan. This supposed arguement is closed i was right and everyone else (including) you were wrong.

That does NOT prove jack shit. Genetic fallacy again. The only thing proven is that Naruto gripped Hinata's hand, and as I said earlier, even if he did decide to date, engage, wed and have children with Hinata, that in no way proves that the Ridoku had a Hyuuga wife. it's 2 seperate and unconnected events.

Besides, Naruto still lacks the Rinnegan required to make your theory work.

I am appaled that it took you 3 weeks just to merely come bak in here and argue what basically amounts to a big "NO U!!!111!!1" at me...

Oh, SWL is back?

Anyway, yea, what DS Zero said.

I don't even care if this is true. Hyuga is the most interesting clan IMO. A waste us what they did to Neji

Well, it would seem that the Byakugan predated the Great Sage so, yes, OP was correct in a way.

How does it even work with chakra existing? And if not for activation, would it only be used for the 360 vision?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, it would seem that the Byakugan predated the Great Sage so, yes, OP was correct in a way.

The Byakugan predated the Sage, but we have no concrete evidence that the Hyuga clan itself predated the Sage.

I really wish Kishi would at least elaborate on how the Byakugan further relates to the Sage and how it & the Hyuga clan came to be, but I guess we'll have to wait until Kaguya reappears.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
The Byakugan predated the Sage, but we have no concrete evidence that the Hyuga clan itself predated the Sage.

I really wish Kishi would at least elaborate on how the Byakugan further relates to the Sage and how it & the Hyuga clan came to be, but I guess we'll have to wait until Kaguya reappears.

I cannot disagree with anything in your post. 🙂

Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, it would seem that the Byakugan predated the Great Sage so, yes, OP was correct in a way.

No, his entire premise was that the Sage wedded a Hyuuga Wife. He said nothing about Kaguya, because she was not even thought of 2 years ago.

Besides, there is no evidence Kaguya is a Hyuuga either. She came from a distant land "outside" the Elemental Nations, and there was no other information regarding her history or bloodlines or ancestry or anything else.

If SWL had said that the Byakugan predated the Sage or the Rinnegan, then he would have been correct, as it stands, no, SWL is still incorrect.