Sids, Dooku, Vader vs Malgus, Revan, Bane

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Hey, I told you this was all up to you. It is unreasonable and rude for you to complain and accuse me of the exact thing you're doing.

What the heck have I done now? Lol.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Your best bet would be to wait until the actual fight airs on tv to provide a better argument. So far, it's like you are trying to force there being a struggle, without there being much to go by.

LOL. I've done nothing but provide proof from the novel. All your doing is going back to Sidious's other feats. And really pushing the speculation with things like : "Oh Sidious smiled". What's that supposed to mean? He was laughing his ass off against Yoda!

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You lost me. Maybe I'm just reading your previous post wrong. I thought that maybe you were suggesting that since Sidious was using one arm each for them, that the sheer strength of their blows may have been slowing Sidious down somewhat.

I was but what other option is there? If he uses One Saber he will have a harder time deflecting both of them.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, but since you wanted to keep this as civil as possible, I won't describe how utterly retarded that was.

Nice.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
K.

Just so you know, this will be my last post to you.

Great.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If we were to compare Sidious and Kenobi based on their performances against the brothers, then Kenobi would fall way short. Sidious won his fight against them, without much to suggest that he struggled to do so.

He won when he seperated them with the Force. Doesn't suggest his Saber performance was superior to Kenobi's.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
In comparison, Kenobi was left barried alive,

Yeah because Maul is superior with the Force. (Opress is too). What does that have to do with the fact that Kenobi defeated Opress in Sabers while fighting off Maul. Whilst Sidious didn't. He seperates Maul with the Force, and then has to defeat them 1 on 1 in Sabers.

But who knows. You might get lucky. It could happen differently when the episode airs. He might kick him to seperate him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
and had it been under normal circumstances,

Lol. What was wrong with circumstances?!

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Kenobi probably would have been completely owned, considering that both Maul and Savage on other occasions were shown to kick Kenobi's ass 1-on-1.

Maul kicked was defeating him after he had been ambushed and battered unconcious. Oh and he still had to use Dun Moch. Opress beat him by surprising him. Kenobi wasn't ready to fight him as confirmed by Dave Filoni.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
On the otherhand, Kenobi has struggled against Grievous all throughout the CW series, while Kit was casually kicking his ass. Based on that, yes, I'm hesitant to consider Kenobi much better than Fisto (if he's better at all).

I don't know if you remember a movie called Revenge of the Sith, but Kenobi completely tooled a much better trained Grievous (who had even analyzed Vapaad), without having to resort to hiding or having to grab one of his lightsabers to use Jar Kai on him.

But Kenobi fought Maul and Opress together in Sabers just like Sidious. He used Jar Kai just like Sidious. But Kenobi managed to defeat Opress while simultaneously fighting off Maul, whilst Sidious didn't. He resorted to seperating them.

And this despite the fact that Maul was able to toss him around with the Force, something he can't do to Sidious. In fact Sidious was the one who had the advantage of tossing Maul and Opress around with the Force.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You're rude and hypocritical. Using double standards is all you do in debates.

Seriously, quit complaining when others get mean with you.

LOL The only person I see whining and complaining here is you mate.

I always try to restart things with you and try and have a reasonable debate but you've clearly proven here here that you can't do that. (At least not with me and when discussing this topic.)

Well Kenobi's case proves it is the best way to deal with 2 formidable opponents for a Saber fight at least. But I won't go as far as saying Sidious required 2 Sabers, as he could fight Dooku style fighting off 1 in Sabers, while holding off the other with the Force.

Nope, and I've provided clear proof from that fight that suggests it was a clear struggle for Dooku (being put on his ass, and disarmed; desparately spamming lightning throughout the duel; being force-choked and hurled against the wall, forcing him to flee), you have yet to do the same for Sidious.

I'm just not seeing how Maul acknowledging Sidious' superiority suggests that his performance was hindered.

I just believe that Grievous is a genuine threat to Kenobi.

Nope, I already have, and I'm not doing it again.

Jarkai helps defending against simultaneous attacks. As example Kenobi with single saber could do as much as constantly give ground and passively defend against brothers. With two sabers he could defend against their simultaneous attacks without giving ground and even could afford to do offensive moves. Sidious used Jarkai against brothers for the same reason.

Lightwhip had several strands, which allowed attacking opponent from multiple sides simultaneously:
“The shoto was a special half-length lightsaber that Luke had built after nearly losing his life the first time he encountered Lumiya's lightwhip. The shorter blade allowed him to fight in the Jar'Kai style - with a weapon in each hand-which counteracted the advantage of the lightwhip's dual-natured strands of energy and matter.”

Mace Windu:
Mace had told him how the computers slaved to Grievous's brain had apparently analyzed even Mace's unconventionally lethal Vaapad and had been able to respond in kind after a single exchange.
"He must have been trained by Count Dooku," Mace had said, "so you can expect Makashi as well; given the number of Jedi he has fought and slain, you must expect that he can attack in any style, or all of them. In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him."

You try to lowball Kenobi by performance against Grievous. Yet, according to Windu Grievous is a big challenge in RotS. And I would rather believe Windu than you.

Finally this:
“ This allowed him to keep his mind focused so he could use the Force to anticipate his opponent's moves, while at the same time obscuring and confusing his enemy's own precognitive senses”.
Fisto might have demonstrated himself well against non-sensitive opponent, however, this feat is meaningless, when it comes to fight with Force-sensitives that can confuse anticipation. And his instant loss to Sidious is a sound prove to that.

You accused me of speculation. Well, we all speculate here, thats what debates are about. However, each of my points are backed up by canon sources, while you simply dismiss them without backing it up with anything substantial.

You're not this nitpicky with Kenobi's performances, and if you were, Kenobi would probably be the least impressive jedi of the entire era, which is why you suggest that we ignore Kenobi's weak points.

Btw: How is Grievous not familiar with Jarkai when he is a user of it? As for the rest, I've been over it numerous times.

Originally posted by Arhael
DP, such tactic would not "likely" work on brothers for several reasons.
Fighting Kenobi and Anakin is nowhere as hard as brothers. Kenobi’s style is defensive, so by default Kenobi’s attacks will not be as offensive and effective as brothers’. Anakin while uses offensive style, without anger is nowhere as offensive as he can be. But both brothers go all out with nothing to hold back.
Also, it is not likely that either brother could get tooled by Force as Kenobi. And brothers would give much less opportunities to muster a powerful Force attack.
In any case it makes sense to believe Palpatine who felt need to use 2 lightsabers, than to a forum member who assumes that he didn’t despite various evidence implying opposite.

Good points but I was thinking more about the way Dooku fought Opress and Ventress. Doing a lot of fast movement to evade their attacks and using the Force(and even kicks) a lot to keep one of them at bay while sword fighting the other.

But yeah I can see how the offensive might of Maul and Opress combined could make the options on how to fight them quite restricted.

SIDIOUS_66
In that entire fight, we see Dooku knocked on his ass, and disarmed; we see him spending the majority of the duel trying desperately to keep Savage away from him with blast after blast of FL (which is a far more lethal attack than a FP); we see him force choked and hurled against the wall, which resulted in him trying to flee.

The website unambiguously refutes the idea that Dooku was stomping Asajj & Savage.

SIDIOUS_66
Why are we trying to comparing Dooku's duel with Savage and Ventress to Sidious's duel with Maul and Savage?

Perhaps a thinly-veiled attempt to aggrandize the Count and lowball his Master?

Have we even reached a consensus on how powerful Malgus is?

Malgus has some flashy Force powers, but I'm not sure if he'll be able to match either opponent from team 1.

I'd say Dooku has him in saber fight and mastery of the Force,
Vader seems to be also a superior saber duelist and then he has his bitchin' TK. Malgus goes down.
Sidious demolishes him either in sabers or in the Force.

In other words, team 1 rolls.
I see only Bane surving quite long, and that is only due to Orbalisks.

I don't know about Dooku winning the sword fight. Malgus looks stronger than Anakin and that is, you know, Dooku's weakness.

That Zabrakian Jedi Master in one of intro's that he killed looked really impressive with his lightsaber skills and if I'm not mistaken he was the temples battlemaster.

Malgus has basically cut through everyone onscreen in a sword fight.

Team 1...

50/50, IMO

Sidious is the only significant threat in Team 1 who may change the outcome in this hypothetical conflict in its favour.

- Revan can take care of Dooku or Vader
- Bane can take care of Dooku or Vader
- Malgus will give Sidious a decent challenge

The outcome depends upon which individual falls first.

Sabers:

Bane>Sidious=Dooku>Vader=Malgus>Revan

Force:

Sidious>Bane>Vader>Revan>Dooku=Malgus

The fights would probably be...

Malgus vs Dooku = Dooku wins

Vader vs Revan = Vader wins

Sidious vs Bane = Bane wins

So then Vader and Dooku double team Bane, and are able to take him out. Dooku dies in that battle, and Vader is close to death's embrace as well.

Amazingly close match up. Great job OP.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Sabers:

Bane>Sidious=Dooku>Vader=Malgus>Revan

Force:

Sidious>Bane>Vader>Revan>Dooku=Malgus

The fights would probably be...

Malgus vs Dooku = Dooku wins

Vader vs Revan = Vader wins

Sidious vs Bane = Bane wins

So then Vader and Dooku double team Bane, and are able to take him out. Dooku dies in that battle, and Vader is close to death's embrace as well.

Amazingly close match up. Great job OP.

I advice you to learn something from this debate: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t571355.html

Revan is stronger then any individual in this team barring Sidious. Same is true for Malgus.

In fact, both Revan and Malgus can contend with Sidious one-on-one.

I highly doubt Malgus is superior to Vader. Watch Jensaarais Malgus vs Dooku video. It sums up my reasoning for having the two at rather equivalent power. As for Vader vs Revan, please tell me ONE thing Revan has done that Vader can't do better. Revan bieng capable if contending with Palpatine is outrageous in its own...

My argument was ill-conceived, true. I'm on my phone, and will type a rather more in depth explanation later.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Malgus has some flashy Force powers, but I'm not sure if he'll be able to match either opponent from team 1.

I'd say Dooku has him in saber fight and mastery of the Force,
Vader seems to be also a superior saber duelist and then he has his bitchin' TK. Malgus goes down.
Sidious demolishes him either in sabers or in the Force.

In other words, team 1 rolls.

He destroyed a battle-master of the Jedi Order when he was young:

http://www.swtor.com/info/media/trailers/return

Kao Cen Darach is not a paper tiger unlike Cin Dralling.

In Aldeeran, confrontation with Satele Shan and Jace Malcom left Malgus seriously wounded; even under such a condition, Malgus fought against 2 more Jedi afterwards. During this clash, one of these Jedi collapsed two buildings over Malgus and still failed to stop him.

During the event of Sacking of Coruscant, Malgus cut a swath through Jedi formations inside the Temple like butter. Even though some exceptionally skilled Jedi (e.g. Jedi Master Usma) fought against the Sith forces inside the Temple during this event, Malgus regarded Jedi Master Ven Zallow as the only worthy opponent for him.

In addition, Malgus have been identified as one of the strongest predecessors of Sidious in Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side. Sidious actually attempted to inspire Vader by providing him materials related to Malgus.

Malgus is exceptionally skilled with a lightsaber, beastly at tanking abilities and very competent in the use of Force powers. The aforementioned canon source offers some useful information on Malgus's talents.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
I see only Bane surving quite long, and that is only due to Orbalisks.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I highly doubt Malgus is superior to Vader. Watch Jensaarais Malgus vs Dooku video. It sums up my reasoning for having the two at rather equivalent power.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
As for Vader vs Revan, please tell me ONE thing Revan has done that Vader can't do better. Revan bieng capable if contending with Palpatine is outrageous in its own...

Ever seen Vader cut a swath through huge concentration of forces in one particular setting; utterly destroy an opponent more competent then Dooku in single combat; and nearly assassinate an opponent on par with Sidious?

Vader have decent feats but he is not as good as Revan; not even close. He lost to Marek; was no match for Sidious; didn't attempt to assassinate Shaak Ti himself; and was stalemated by an old Obi-Wan.

You're now seriously going to claim that Malgus and Revan are each a solo match for Sidious? You've lost your effin' mind, son.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
You're now seriously going to claim that Malgus and Revananyone on team 2 are each a solo match for Sidious? You've lost your effin' mind, son.

👆

No one on Team 2 is a match for Palpatine individually, though orbalisk!Bane is unquestionably a challenge. I reckon Revan edges out Vader and Dooku, but feat-to-feat they trounce him. It really depends on how generous we want to be.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
You're now seriously going to claim that Malgus and Revan are each a solo match for Sidious? You've lost your effin' mind, son.

Revan held his own against Vitiate for a while; and Vitiate is among the top-tier Force-wielders in the mythos. Don't pass judgements on my mind; start using yours instead.

I don't buy the assumptions that Sidious and Luke will lay waste to other incredibly powerful opponents as if they are fodder.

Star Wars mythos is an evolving subject; move along with it.

------

As for those who feel the need to bring feat-to-feat based logic; well, Marek trounces (OT) Sidious in this manner. However, in actual combat we have seen what happened. Therefore, this feat-to-feat logic is meaningless.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sounds like a fan-fic work to me. I don't take such materials seriously.

Check this debate to get an idea: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t574163.html

Ever seen Vader cut a swath through huge concentration of forces in one particular setting; utterly destroy an opponent more competent then Dooku in single combat; and nearly assassinate an opponent on par with Sidious?

Vader have decent feats but he is not as good as Revan; not even close. He lost to Marek; was no match for Sidious; didn't attempt to assassinate Shaak Ti himself; and was stalemated by an old Obi-Wan.

No... It's not an actual battle video... He discusses why _____ would defeat ______.

In my opinion, this is a very close match. I can see Malgus defeating Vader while Dooku defeats Revan. But they will be good fights. Sidious vs Bane is of course one of the most hotly contested fights on the forum and personally I see it as being a fight that will outlast the others in terms of parity. Then it is a question of whether Malgus can defeat Dooku as to the final victor. Probably Malgus due to greater stamina.