Originally posted by Nephthys
Just to point out, Sidious was laughing throughout his duel with Yoda and allowed the latter to get to his feet at least once, twice iirc. Was Sidious holding back against Yoda as well?
If by "holding back against Yoda" you mean not trying to kill Yoda when he was laughing and not trying to kill Yoda? Then yeah.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't remember what Luke says after that but you can't deny the similar circumstances and actions.
The circumstances aren't similar, bro.
We can extrapolate from various clues that the Emperor's brawl with Yoda required considerable effort from him: after he loses his initial advantage, he tries to flee; when they lock blades, we see visible strain on his face; when Yoda begins to deflect the lightning, we see shock (pun intended). Whether or not he's superior to Yoda is irrelevant: what we do know is that the fight was extremely difficult for him.
In contrast, the only strain we see from Sidious (from the text, anyway) is when he engages the brothers in a strict contest of strength.
Which refuses to take into consideration the fact that Obi-Wan has lost to Maul and Opress separately before and that both Filoni and the website note a level of circumstance to his "victory."
In first fight with Maul in order to help disarmed Ventress Kenobi casually handled Maul. Then Maul taunted Kenobi about Qui-Gon's death and Kenobi not only gets stomped but we see him attacking - ouy of his character. From being clear superior to being completely outmatched is a big difference within the same fight. Clearly it is more than just skill involved.
Second, it's not a good way of judging characters by their consistent performance. Sidious is ultimate Sith in his prime, while Kenobi is a character that develops throughout series by facing new trials. We are not talking here about Kenobi that could get knocked unconscious by Ventress' kick, we are talking about Kenobi that could tank far stronger kicks from Maul and Anakin. We are not talking about Kenobi that could fall prey to Maul's taunting, we are talkimg about strong-minded Kenobi that was confident to fight both brothers and could let go of his attachment and do what he must to defeat Anakin.
Sid66, you asked for proof that Maul's performance was hindered.
When brothers fought Kenobi, Maul was confident: "We are two, you are no match for us two". As fight progressed Maul was getting angrier and angrier until he got powerful enough to Force choke Kenobi. After Opress lost hand, Maul's rage reached its pick and as result he was able to completely stomp Kenobi with Force.
But when fighting Sidious Maul didn't have hatred towards Sidious he could draw on like in case with Kenobi. Instead of focusing on his anger he was gapping at Sidious performance.
Anakin:
"Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.
Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke."
Anakin disregarded Dooku's superiority, he became confident and focused on his rage. But Maul accepted his inferiority to Sidious, he always feared him. And when brother got wounded, instead of getting enraged Maul started grieving. Sidious makes emotional wreck out of his victims, he demonstrated the same thing against DE Luke, that's what he is about.
Overwhelming amount of evidence shows that confident and angry character performs much better but Maul was neither as well as Sidious hinders performance of his victims by establishing emotional dominance, so logically Maul's performance was hindered.
Before we continue, I would appreciate an open admission on your part that in an all out fight, Sidious would shitstomp Obi-Wan utterly.
Because you suggest Kenobi's inferiority to Sidious, then suggest Sidious struggled deeply against a hindered!Maul and Opress whereas Obi-Wan beat them outright, which would suggest parity between Obi-Wan and Sidious.
It would help clear the air and allow me to gauge how silly this discussion will become.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ok that's your opinion.
It is my opinion, and I've provided a very reasonable/supported argument for it, which you have yet to refute.
You and Arhael both accuse me of speculation, when you both imply that Sidious was forced to his limit and was struggling, when nothing in that fight shows it. You both are speculating big time.
Seriously, DP, why do you complain about people being rude and mean to you? Do you not think it's equally rude for you to complain and accuse others of doing the stuff you do? Do you think you are somehow special to where you can speculate without properly supporting your assertions, while your opponent does? I don't - which is why I don't see why you complain when others get irritated with you.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I said it's going to be down to interpretation like the Dooku vs Ventress & Opress. One could say Dooku wasn't going all out there when you look at the way he handled Kenobi and Skywalker.
In that entire fight, we see Dooku knocked on his ass, and disarmed; we see him spending the majority of the duel trying desperately to keep Savage away from him with blast after blast of FL (which is a far more lethal attack than a FP); we see him force choked and hurled against the wall, which resulted in him trying to flee. Why are we trying to comparing Dooku's duel with Savage and Ventress to Sidious's duel with Maul and Savage? Sidious was never put at such disadvantageous positions, nor was he using as lethal of force attacks.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also there's just such a big gap between Fisto and Mace, that there's plenty of room in between to fit the likes of Opress and Maul.
Ok, I'll agree that Maul and Savage are better than any of the masters that assisted Windu, and they make a superior team. But I'm not seeing them as so much ahead of them that they can push Sidious to his limit, whereas the three jedi masters, along with Mace, were unable to even press and advantage on Palpatine.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And if Windu alone can push Sidious to his limit and even defeat him, I see no reason why Maul and Opress together couldn't bring Sidious to near his limit before they get seperated.
That was after Mace's powers were increased in that fight. Before that, Sidious was able to kill two jedi masters before Mace and Kit together were able to press an advantage on him. On a regular, Mace is inferior to Sidious. However, on a regular, Mace is possibly superior (or at least equal) to the combined might of the brothers.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The passage notes how Sidious is reaching out through the Force to match their strength.
This is not something excluded to his fight with Savage & Maul. Sidious has to rely on the force for strength when in a saber duel period.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Plus with them tackling 1 arm each his speed won't be anywhere near as effective as it is on 1 opponent.
This is absolutely possible, and I won't argue against that possibility. But then that would mean that using two sabers isn't as big as an advantage as you originally claimed.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
How do you figure whose life is in more danger? Is it because Sidious went to engage the brothers, whilst Ventress was the one who initiated the duel with Dooku?
😆
These debates wouldn't be as entertaining without a sense of humor
(please tell me you were joking?)
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No pause is mentioned the first time at all. Sidious is the one who comes in out of nowhere and starts aggressively attacking them.
Does it need to make mention of pauses for you to know that it would require more time for Maul and Opress to get back on their feet and ignite their sabers than it would for Sidious to launch another attack. Seconds are very critical when fighting someone with Palpatine's speed.
The point I'm trying to make, is that Sidious did not hesitate to attack Mace & comp. He did not wait for them to make an attack. He attacked them first, without relent, without pause, and without hesitation. He opened up their duel with more aggression than he did with Maul and Savage.
I forgot to respond to this...
Originally posted by Arhael
Second, it's not a good way of judging characters by their consistent performance. Sidious is ultimate Sith in his prime, while Kenobi is a character that develops throughout series by facing new trials. We are not talking here about Kenobi that could get knocked unconscious by Ventress' kick, we are talking about Kenobi that could tank far stronger kicks from Maul and Anakin. We are not talking about Kenobi that could fall prey to Maul's taunting, we are talkimg about strong-minded Kenobi that was confident to fight both brothers and could let go of his attachment and do what he must to defeat Anakin.
So basically we are to make this acception for Kenobi only, right? Because you're sure not willing to make this acception for the characters you're arguing against.
Regardless, Palpatine's lowest showings are better than Kenobi's highest by a considerable margin. So either way you want to go with this, Kenobi doesn't stand a chance against Palpatine in a strict saber contest. If you want to argue that Kenobi can last longer than 5 seconds against him, then go ahead. But if you're suggesting that Kenobi can provide a decent challenge for Sidious, then I'm not going to waste time with you. No matter how much you want to say I'm lowballing Kenobi, there is absolutley no reason for me to believe that Kenobi is much better than Fisto. Sorry, but Obi Wan doesn't get to consistently struggle against the same opponent who Fisto tooled quite comfortably for me to consider him much better than Fisto.
We're better off not debating about this at all.
Originally posted by Arhael
Sid66, you asked for proof that Maul's performance was hindered.
When brothers fought Kenobi, Maul was confident: "We are two, you are no match for us two". As fight progressed Maul was getting angrier and angrier until he got powerful enough to Force choke Kenobi. After Opress lost hand, Maul's rage reached its pick and as result he was able to completely stomp Kenobi with Force.But when fighting Sidious Maul didn't have hatred towards Sidious he could draw on like in case with Kenobi. Instead of focusing on his anger he was gapping at Sidious performance.
Anakin:
"Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke."
Anakin disregarded Dooku's superiority, he became confident and focused on his rage. But Maul accepted his inferiority to Sidious, he always feared him. And when brother got wounded, instead of getting enraged Maul started grieving. Sidious makes emotional wreck out of his victims, he demonstrated the same thing against DE Luke, that's what he is about.
Overwhelming amount of evidence shows that confident and angry character performs much better but Maul was neither as well as Sidious hinders performance of his victims by establishing emotional dominance, so logically Maul's performance was hindered.
Maul is a dark sider and is trained to focus his rage in a fight. I've already addressed all this before, and I'm not going in another circle over it. I was just wondering if DP was able to provide proof for his original claim that Maul was somehow holding back, since he now owns the book.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It is my opinion, and I've provided a very reasonable/supported argument for it, which you have yet to refute.You and Arhael both accuse me of speculation, when you both imply that Sidious was forced to his limit and was struggling, when nothing in that fight shows it. You both are speculating big time.
Seriously, DP, why do you complain about people being rude and mean to you? Do you not think it's equally rude for you to complain and accuse others of doing the stuff you do? Do you think you are somehow special to where you can speculate without properly supporting your assertions, while your opponent does? I don't - which is why I don't see why you complain when others get irritated with you.
So much for having a reasonable conversation without making it personal and without bringing up any history. You lasted a whole 2 posts without doing so S66. Well done 👆
Problem with refuting your speculative theories is it just becomes a completely speculative debate. But still I have refuted so many of your points. Your speculating Sidious was holding back because he blitzed Kolar, Tiin and Fisto so Opress and Maul shouldn't give him much trouble according to you.
Aside from the fact that the obvious conclusion is that Maul and Opress >>> those 3, I've proven that theory has no merit anyway by quoting the example of Dooku having a much harder time against Ventress and Opress than he did against Kenobi and Skywalker.
He didn't just flick Ventress out of the fight the way he did Kenobi. He didn't smash Opress against the wall with a kick the way he did Anakin.
So does that mean he was holding back against Ventress and Opress?
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
In that entire fight, we see Dooku knocked on his ass, and disarmed; we see him spending the majority of the duel trying desperately to keep Savage away from him with blast after blast of FL (which is a far more lethal attack than a FP); we see him force choked and hurled against the wall, which resulted in him trying to flee. Why are we trying to comparing Dooku's duel with Savage and Ventress to Sidious's duel with Maul and Savage? Sidious was never put at such disadvantageous positions, nor was he using as lethal of force attacks.
One hit Opress got on Dooku which temporarily put him on his ass and disarmed him. Dooku seemed to be taken by surprise by Opress's strength. Didn't happen again.
Yes he had to rely on his superior force powers to keep Opress at bay while fighting off Ventress. Considering he doesn't use 2 Sabers in combat, that's what he has to rely on, so it's fair game.
The example of Dooku I was using was before Opress went into a rage enhanced state. At that point he was holding his own against(even overpowering) Dooku and Ventress together. Everyone knows he's not that powerful under normal circumstances.
And your bringing up all the trouble Dooku had in that fight but guess what? People see that fight and see Dooku stomping them both! Just like your going to see the Sids fight and no matter what, all you will see is Sidious Uber stomping.
Everyone see's things their own way. But there are simliarities in the 2 fights. In both fights the Real Sith Lord is winning the fight, but it is an intense fight and one that’s clearly a challenge.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
This is not something excluded to his fight with Savage & Maul. Sidious has to rely on the force for strength when in a saber duel period.
Is he normally said to be under strain to reach out to the force so much so that he can simply match his opponents?
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
This is absolutely possible, and I won't argue against that possibility. But then that would mean that using two sabers isn't as big as an advantage as you originally claimed.
Well Kenobi's case proves it is the best way to deal with 2 formidable opponents for a Saber fight at least. But I won't go as far as saying Sidious required 2 Sabers, as he could fight Dooku style fighting off 1 in Sabers, while holding off the other with the Force.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Does it need to make mention of pauses for you to know that it would require more time for Maul and Opress to get back on their feet and ignite their sabers than it would for Sidious to launch another attack. Seconds are very critical when fighting someone with Palpatine's speed.
Maul is said to have sprang right back up. I'm not seeing where the pause is.
That's like me saying, Maul and Opress paused because they clearly gave Sidious time to get his Sabers out..
Yeah sounds stupid doesn't it? But that's how this particular argument of yours sounds to me.
And Nephyths has already pointed out it's in character for Sidious to take pauses (Sidious vs Yoda) so even if it happens it means nothing.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The point I'm trying to make, is that Sidious did not hesitate to attack Mace & comp. He did not wait for them to make an attack. He attacked them first, without relent, without pause, and without hesitation. He opened up their duel with more aggression than he did with Maul and Savage.
I don't see how. Mace and crewe are the ones who went to confront Sidious lightsabers ignited.
In this scenario Sidious is the one who initiates the duel.
Add this to the fact that Sidious did pause and hesitate to continue his assault against Yoda shows that either way this point will not amount to much.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66Maul is a dark sider and is trained to focus his rage in a fight. I've already addressed all this before, and I'm not going in another circle over it. I was just wondering if DP was able to provide proof for his original claim that Maul was somehow holding back, since he now owns the book.
No he doesn't seem to be holding back. But neither does Sidious.
But Arheal's point stands about Maul admiring Sidious too much. No matter how fabulous and amazing Kenobi's swordplay was he wouldn't think that way about Kenobi. It does show the huge psycholocgical hold Sidious has over Maul on top of his superior power.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No matter how much you want to say I'm lowballing Kenobi, there is absolutley no reason for me to believe that Kenobi is much better than Fisto. Sorry, but Obi Wan doesn't get to consistently struggle against the same opponent who Fisto tooled quite comfortably for me to consider him much better than Fisto.We're better off not debating about this at all.
I just read this. I'm sorry but I have to intervene here in yours and Arhael's debate.
Your claiming there's no reason to believe that Kenobi is much better than Fisto based on how they have performed against a similar opponent.
And yet you also refuse to make a Saber comparison between Sidious and Kenobi based on their peformance against the exact same opponents.
At least keep it consistent.
Similarly if you want to judge between Sidious and Kenobi based on other feats (on their higher end feats) then you must also use the same medium to compare Kenobi and Fisto in which case Fisto doesn't compare at all.
Keep your arguments consistent.
It gets very frustrating arguing with someone who uses double standards as and when it suits his argument. But ignores the same standards when it does not.
Before we continue, I would appreciate an open admission on your part that in an all out fight, Sidious would shitstomp Obi-Wan utterly.
So basically we are to make this acception for Kenobi only, right? Because you're sure not willing to make this acception for the characters you're arguing against.
Regardless, Palpatine's lowest showings are better than Kenobi's highest by a considerable margin. So either way you want to go with this, Kenobi doesn't stand a chance against Palpatine in a strict saber contest.
Sorry, but Obi Wan doesn't get to consistently struggle against the same opponent who Fisto tooled quite comfortably for me to consider him much better than Fisto.
1. Jarkai is more suitable to fight enemies that can attack simultaniously from multiple sides. Luke constraced shoto to fight Lumiya for exactly the same reason.
2. Grievous never encountered Jarkai before. Similar example is how Kaz'im pulled the same trick against Bane. And at that point Grievous had only 3 sabers, while Kenobi fought against 4 with single saber.
3. Windu claims that Grievous learned even Vaapad pattern and that he believes Kenobi to be the only Jedi capable to defeat Grievous. And Windu himself used shatterpoint to defeat Grievous instead of his saber skill.
4. Force users unlike Grievous can use Force to confuse anticipation of their opponents, which means that performance against non-sensitive proves nothing.
Maul is a dark sider and is trained to focus his rage in a fight.
Second, rage like other emotions can't be experienced at character's choice. Enraged character is as rare as perfectly
calm Jedi. Sidious is perhaps one of the few exceptions as he gets sick pleasure fighting brothers. I don't remember Maul having any pleasure at all.
Third, confidence is another factor. Maul was confident to engage Kenobi on his own, yet, felt himself inferior to Sidious even with brother on his side.
I was just wondering if DP was able to provide proof for his original claim that Maul was somehow holding back, since he now owns the book.
You and Arhael both accuse me of speculation, when you both imply that Sidious was forced to his limit and was struggling, when nothing in that fight shows it. You both are speculating big time.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your claiming there's no reason to believe that Kenobi is much better than Fisto based on how they have performed against a similar opponent.And yet you also refuse to make a Saber comparison between Sidious and Kenobi based on their peformance against the exact same opponents.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So much for having a reasonable conversation without making it personal and without bringing up any history. You lasted a whole 2 posts without doing so S66. Well done 👆
Hey, I told you this was all up to you. It is unreasonable and rude for you to complain and accuse me of the exact thing you're doing.
You said Sidious was struggling and pushed to his near limit. Prove it. Because the passage just doesn't show it (aside from a brief strain during a saber lock, which was followed by a smile of pleasure). A prolong duel does not mean the superior opponent is struggling. If that's the case, then I guess that would make AOTC Kenobi better than ROTS Kenobi, considering that the former lasted much longer against Dooku by himself.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So does that mean he was holding back against Ventress and Opress?
Nope, and I've provided clear proof from that fight that suggests it was a clear struggle for Dooku (being put on his ass, and disarmed; desparately spamming lightning throughout the duel; being force-choked and hurled against the wall, forcing him to flee), you have yet to do the same for Sidious.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
One hit Opress got on Dooku which temporarily put him on his ass and disarmed him. Dooku seemed to be taken by surprise by Opress's strength. Didn't happen again.
I'm not arguing the circumstances that put Dooku in the position he was in. I may even agree. The point is, Dooku was struggling in that particular fight because of the disadvantageouses positions he was put in. I don't need to look back at Dooku's other feats for clues to whether or not Dooku may have been struggling against Ventress and Savage because the answers are already there. If you want to make an argument that Dooku could have done better, then go ahead, but it has nothing to do with this argument, and it does not refute any of the points I made.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And your bringing up all the trouble Dooku had in that fight but guess what? People see that fight and see Dooku stomping them both! Just like your going to see the Sids fight and no matter what, all you will see is Sidious Uber stomping.
I see Sidious kicking ass, without anything suggesting that he was struggling or forced to his limit. Sidious was not said to be put at a disadvantage, and when I look back at how effortlessly he took out three saber masters who were fighting alongside Windu, I don't see how he could be pushed to his limit by Maul and Opress. See, I have the option to look back at Sidious' other feats for clues to whether or not Sidious may have been being pushed to his limit by the brothers, as the novel does not elaborate on it. Between Sidious' other feats and the many clues the novel gives that suggest Sidious may have been toying around with the brothers, I'm going to stick with my original claim.
Your best bet would be to wait until the actual fight airs on tv to provide a better argument. So far, it's like you are trying to force there being a struggle, without there being much to go by.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Is he normally said to be under strain to reach out to the force so much so that he can simply match his opponents?
Drawing on the force for strength is nothing new, is what I'm saying. Palpatine is an elderly man, while Maul and Savage are young and come from a species that are physically superior to humans.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well Kenobi's case proves it is the best way to deal with 2 formidable opponents for a Saber fight at least. But I won't go as far as saying Sidious required 2 Sabers, as he could fight Dooku style fighting off 1 in Sabers, while holding off the other with the Force.
You lost me. Maybe I'm just reading your previous post wrong. I thought that maybe you were suggesting that since Sidious was using one arm each for them, that the sheer strength of their blows may have been slowing Sidious down somewhat.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Maul is said to have sprang right back up. I'm not seeing where the pause is.That's like me saying, Maul and Opress paused because they clearly gave Sidious time to get his Sabers out..
Yeah sounds stupid doesn't it?
Yeah, but since you wanted to keep this as civil as possible, I won't describe how utterly retarded that was.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And Nephyths has already pointed out it's in character for Sidious to take pauses (Sidious vs Yoda) so even if it happens it means nothing.
K.
Just so you know, this will be my last post to you.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But Arheal's point stands about Maul admiring Sidious too much. No matter how fabulous and amazing Kenobi's swordplay was he wouldn't think that way about Kenobi. It does show the huge psycholocgical hold Sidious has over Maul on top of his superior power.
No, it does not stand. Ask yourself why Maul was thinking "that way" (take a nice pause and think). Then ask yourself this: would Maul be thinking this way had him an Savage been on the winning end of the fight (take another nice pause to think)? After you're done thinking about the second question, go back to the first one. Doesn't it make you wonder: maybe these musings entered Maul's mind because, despite Maul's increase of power, Sidious was still that much better than him?
I'm just not seeing how Maul acknowledging Sidious' superiority suggests that his performance was hindered. In fact, Maul's musings would suggest that he was putting his new powers at good use. I mean, Dooku acknowledged Yoda's superiority. Does that mean Yoda had a psychological hold on Dooku?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yet you also refuse to make a Saber comparison between Sidious and Kenobi based on their peformance against the exact same opponents.
If we were to compare Sidious and Kenobi based on their performances against the brothers, then Kenobi would fall way short. Sidious won his fight against them, without much to suggest that he struggled to do so. In comparison, Kenobi was left barried alive, and had it been under normal circumstances, Kenobi probably would have been completely owned, considering that both Maul and Savage on other occasions were shown to kick Kenobi's ass 1-on-1.
On the otherhand, Kenobi has struggled against Grievous all throughout the CW series, while Kit was casually kicking his ass. Based on that, yes, I'm hesitant to consider Kenobi much better than Fisto (if he's better at all).
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Similarly if you want to judge between Sidious and Kenobi based on other feats (on their higher end feats) then you must also use the same medium to compare Kenobi and Fisto in which case Fisto doesn't compare at all.
I'm all for going by there higher end feats if they do not contradict their more consistent feats, as their higher end feats usually show what they are capable of if they decide to let loose. I don't believe Kenobi purposely holds back his true capabilities against Grievous, unless he likes to get ragdolled and put on his ass. Nor do I believe that Kenobi just so happens to be on his worse day every time he fights with Grievous. I just believe that Grievous is a genuine threat to Kenobi.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It gets very frustrating arguing with someone who uses double standards as and when it suits his argument. But ignores the same standards when it does not.
You're rude and hypocritical. Using double standards is all you do in debates.
Seriously, quit complaining when others get mean with you.
Originally posted by Arhael
You didn't even respond to the last things I provided in regards of
Nope, I already have, and I'm not doing it again. You're not this nitpicky with Kenobi's performances, and if you were, Kenobi would probably be the least impressive jedi of the entire era, which is why you suggest that we ignore Kenobi's weak points.
Btw: How is Grievous not familiar with Jarkai when he is a user of it? As for the rest, I've been over it numerous times.