Originally posted by Newjak
Yeah they will as long as we are thinking the same things. There were multiple areas to get into the position they were blocking the main entrance with.The Spartans don't have tower shields. They have large rounded shields. That still exposed their lower legs and heads. A team of Uruk hai firing into the Spartan Formation would hurt and disable some of them. It could outright kill others.
And crossbows can pierce steel.
Where the entrances ever shown to be usable in the movie, tho? Doesn't seem to make sense that the only area they seem to be worried about was the main door of the keep and not those other entrances...
Watched 300 clips again, My mistake. I kept seeing them as "Troy" shields for some reason. Lol. Nonetheless, their shields interlocked when they did their phalanx formation w/c would definitely offer some defense to the crossbows.
Tho, I'll have to reiterate that the crossbows got used once and only for shooting ppl off battlements prior to getting the ladders up. They never used it in mid ranged combat. My theory is that they only wanted to use it to clear room for the ladders. Once the ladders were up, Uruk's prefer to fight up close.
300 Elves replaced by 300 Spartans? I'd say that's a downgrade, what with no bows, but... I doubt the Spartans would be so stupid as to break ranks and charge in to a heavy-armored infantry battalion. The Elves were.
I have a feeling that Paris and the Trojan archers are superior to Rohan's rabble of old men and boys. Not Elves though.
In fact, I think everyone on this list is superior to Rohan's rabble of old men and boys. Who have one eye and/or poor nerves.
Achilles, Conan, and Mathayus>>>anything Aragorn or Gimli ever did. Only Legolas isn't satisfyingly replaced. But then again... in that entire battle, with all his archery skill and dagger swinging, he only killed 43/10000. His absence isn't a huge loss. Not to mention his PIS-poor aim with the suicide bomber.
Really, the biggest issue is who's in command and where. Who gets overall strategic command? At least we knew it was Theoden over the Rohirrim, and Aragorn over the Elves. But who command who this time? Issues will arise.
Originally posted by NibedicusObviously if the people can get in and out then they are usable 😛
Where the entrances ever shown to be usable in the movie, tho? Doesn't seem to make sense that the only area they seem to be worried about was the main door of the keep and not those other entrances...Watched 300 clips again, My mistake. I kept seeing them as "Troy" shields for some reason. Lol. Nonetheless, their shields interlocked when they did their phalanx formation w/c would definitely offer some defense to the crossbows.
Tho, I'll have to reiterate that the crossbows got used once and only for shooting ppl off battlements prior to getting the ladders up. They never used it in mid ranged combat. My theory is that they only wanted to use it to clear room for the ladders. Once the ladders were up, Uruk's prefer to fight up close.
And what I'm trying to say is if they concentrate all their efforts on the main entrance keep area. The invaders will climb the ladders, the blow the wall and get inside the keep where they will be able to get behind the people defending the main entrance.
Originally posted by Lord LucienI take issue with this. Aragorn was extremely skilled and had some pretty good feats for him, and he faced much harder competition than anything those 3 faced.Achilles, Conan, and Mathayus>>>anything Aragorn or Gimli ever did. Only Legolas isn't satisfyingly replaced. But then again... in that entire battle, with all his archery skill and dagger swinging, he only killed 43/10000. His absence isn't a huge loss. Not to mention his PIS-poor aim with the suicide bomber.
Gimili while not getting many great screen feats did have some good ones. For instance he was able to kill a Worg, snap its rider's neck with one hand. Then he was benching pressing an animal off of him that was about as big as a horse.
Him and Aragorn were fending off the Main Entrance long enough for the people inside to re-enforce it.
Originally posted by Newjak
Obviously if the people can get in and out then they are usable 😛And what I'm trying to say is if they concentrate all their efforts on the main entrance keep area. The invaders will climb the ladders, the blow the wall and get inside the keep where they will be able to get behind the people defending the main entrance.
The keep had one entrance from the main courtyard IIRC. That's the main door that the uruk's are banging on. Other than that, there's the "secret path that leads into the mountains" and the stairs that lead up to the great horn. Certainly not an open door policy there. 😛
The keep was too high for ladders, I think (it's shaped like a high tower) and uruk's used up their entire explosive load on the main wall, else they wouldn't be using a small portable battering ram on the main keep door.
Seriously, if the uruks did what they did in Two Towers vs the most-certainly-slightly-insane Spartans, they'd be the ones going:
"So much death... What can uruks do against such reckless hate?" 😄
Originally posted by NibedicusOkay we are thinking of different areas. I thought you thinking of the main entrance into helm's deep itself.
The keep had one entrance from the main courtyard IIRC. That's the main door that the uruk's are banging on. Other than that, there's the "secret path that leads into the mountains" and the stairs that lead up to the great horn. Certainly not an open door policy there. 😛The keep was too high for ladders, I think (it's shaped like a high tower) and uruk's used up their entire explosive load on the main wall, else they wouldn't be using a small portable battering ram on the main keep door.
Seriously, if the uruks did what they did in Two Towers vs the most-certainly-slightly-insane Spartans, they'd be the ones going:
"So much death... What can uruks do against such reckless hate?" 😄
If they go to that point and surrender their only real fortification positions, the Uruk-hai could just outlast them. They have no supplies, no way of mounting an effective counter attack.
Also if they retreat from the main area into that little place(Assuming they could fit everyone), then they won't have to use the explosive bomb on the wall to get in, they can just batter down the entrance and place at the door to the high tower keep you're talking about light it and boom no more Defenders.
Originally posted by Newjak
Okay we are thinking of different areas. I thought you thinking of the main entrance into helm's deep itself.If they go to that point and surrender their only real fortification positions, the Uruk-hai could just outlast them. They have no supplies, no way of mounting an effective counter attack.
Also if they retreat from the main area into that little place(Assuming they could fit everyone), then they won't have to use the explosive bomb on the wall to get in, they can just batter down the entrance and place at the door to the high tower keep you're talking about light it and boom no more Defenders.
Maximus would prolly still deploy the majority at the walls (there are still the knights, myrmidons and archers after all) but would withdraw to the keep as soon as the walls are breached (not charge them like lunatics as the elves did. I'd go "elves gooood at shooty not so good at stabby" at Aragorn were I there at Helm's Deep beside im. Lol.) as they wouldn't really know the bomb existed. Aragorn was awesome at inspiring troops but his strategic and tactical acumen pales in comparison to Maximus IMO.
I'd argue that Mathayus would be able to one shot that torch wielding Uruk zerker, tho as his bow hits like a freakin car.
Also, I'd have to disagree about poor supplies. In any siege battle, supplies are protected the most and Helm's Deep, being a defensive fortress designed to break sieges, should have ample supplies. In fact, Theoden's point of withdrawing TO Helm's Deep was to outlast the Uruks.
Theoden: Crops can be re-sown, homes re-built. Within these walls... we will outlast them.
A counter attack is certainly possible once enemy morale is broken with enough casualties. Sometimes, a counter attack isn't even needed.
Originally posted by NibedicusThen they've lost the majority of their forces and would be relying on the Spartans to keep the inner sanctum safe.
Maximus would prolly still deploy the majority at the walls (there are still the knights, myrmidons and archers after all) but would withdraw to the keep as soon as the walls are breached (not charge them like lunatics as the elves did. I'd go "elves gooood at shooty not so good at stabby" at Aragorn were I there at Helm's Deep beside im. Lol.) as they wouldn't really know the bomb existed. Aragorn was awesome at inspiring troops but his strategic and tactical acumen pales in comparison to Maximus IMO.I'd argue that Mathayus would be able to one shot that torch wielding Uruk zerker, tho as his bow hits like a freakin car.
Also, I'd have to disagree about poor supplies. In any siege battle, supplies are protected the most and Helm's Deep, being a defensive fortress designed to break sieges, should have ample supplies. In fact, Theoden's point of withdrawing TO Helm's Deep was to outlast the Uruks.
Theoden: Crops can be re-sown, homes re-built. Within these walls... we will outlast them.
A counter attack is certainly possible once enemy moral is broken with enough casualties. Sometimes, a counter attack isn't even needed.
And Legolas shows that Elves are very good at stabby. The reason why the Elves stayed where they were at was so the other people had time to retreat to the area you are talking about.
You do realize there is a difference between outlasting someone while you are within the walls and they aren't compared to them being inside the walls as well.
He may take out the one torch wielding Uruk - Hai doesn't mean he will do it when they decide to send two in the next time.
Let me get this straight you think an entire fighting force retreating into a very small room, with most of their supplies outside, is going to outlast and demoralize a bunch of monster men?
The Uruk-Hai are better than anything these forces faced. They are more heavily armed, armored, and much better fighters than your standard Persain/Greek/Knight Templar fighter in their respective movies.
Originally posted by NewjakYeah... that says more about the shittiness of Uruk-hai than the skill of Aragorn. Aragorn and Gimli are impressive for their endurance, not their incredible fighting prowess.
I take issue with this. Aragorn was extremely skilled and had some pretty good feats for him, and he faced much harder competition than anything those 3 faced.Gimili while not getting many great screen feats did have some good ones. For instance he was able to kill a Worg, snap its rider's neck with one hand. Then he was benching pressing an animal off of him that was about as big as a horse.
Him and Aragorn were fending off the Main Entrance long enough for the people inside to re-enforce it.
That's not to say they aren't really good, compared to normal people. But compared to their fellow movie warriors, they're very average. A LOT of endurance--being able to take the falls they do, fight for as long as they do-- but skill, swiftness, reflexes... those are all things Uruks and Orcs are shown to lack. Even Merry and Pippin soloed their fair share. Aragorn was given hell by Lurtz. There's no way someone like Achilles wouldn't have cut him down in seconds. Endurance and brute strength are great(!) but they won't defeat speed and skill.
Originally posted by Lord LucienThey fought Trolls man.
Yeah... that says more about the shittiness of Uruk-hai than the skill of Aragorn. Aragorn and Gimli are impressive for their endurance, not their incredible fighting prowess.That's not to say they aren't really good, compared to normal people. But compared to their fellow movie warriors, they're very average. A LOT of endurance--being able to take the falls they do, fight for as long as they do-- but skill, swiftness, reflexes... those are all things Uruks and Orcs are shown to lack. Even Merry and Pippin soloed their fair share. Aragorn was given hell by Lurtz. There's no way someone like Achilles wouldn't have cut him down in seconds. Endurance and brute strength are great(!) but they won't defeat speed and skill.
A single Troll would have devastated the Spartans, Achilles and his Mymodans, the Knights.
Swiftness Aragorn was able to swiftly dispatch foes so was Gimili.
And Lurtz was able to toss a shield with such accuracy, skill, and strength that he perfectly trapped Aragorn's head in it. Lurtz was obviously a formidable opponent and based on that one feat is tougher and better and more skilled than anything Achilles fought.
Originally posted by Newjak
Then they've lost the majority of their forces and would be relying on the Spartans to keep the inner sanctum safe.And Legolas shows that Elves are very good at stabby. The reason why the Elves stayed where they were at was so the other people had time to retreat to the area you are talking about.
You do realize there is a difference between outlasting someone while you are within the walls and they aren't compared to them being inside the walls as well.
He may take out the one torch wielding Uruk - Hai doesn't mean he will do it when they decide to send two in the next time.
Let me get this straight you think an entire fighting force retreating into a very small room, with most of their supplies outside, is going to outlast and demoralize a bunch of monster men?
The Uruk-Hai are better than anything these forces faced. They are more heavily armed, armored, and much better fighters than your standard Persain/Greek/Knight Templar fighter in their respective movies.
Did you see the size of that door? Barely 2-3 uruks at a time could get thru. Added to a narror corridor and you have Hot Gates version 2 right there. A much smaller one. You won't need all 300 spartans to guard that.
Also, that wasn't a small room. A narrow one, yes. But it had enough room to stash like close to 20 horses off screen as well as all the women and children (off screen as well) in the movie. A smart general (like Maximus) would fill these rooms with supplies first instead of horses and women/children.
Will certainly NOT store supplies near the walls or open courtyards where siege weapons, fire arrows and rot from dead bodies would get to them.
Not to mention the "secret path into the mountains" could well be a good place to store more supplies (also, Maximus/Leonidas/Balian would no doubt ASK if there was such a path EARLY. Seriously, who would FORGET to ask ppl about a secret escape path til much later when the battle has turned REAL badly?? That's some pretty crucial terrain/environment info missing from the battle plan right there).
Uruks were strong and savage. But were highly disorganized outside of the preplanned battle strat they had at the start of the battle. The concept of formations, flanking, skirmishing, maneuvering, etc. or overall warfare tactics just didnt exist that much for the LoTR bad guys (in the movies anyway).
PS. Didn't day Elves were BAD at stabby. Just nowhere as good as the shooty part. A smarter (and more ruthless) general would have let the weaker soldiers cover the elite soldier's retreat and not vice versa.
PPS. If they let them torch wielders do the olympics walk with all the other uruks's standing aside instead of shielding him, then I'd say Mathayus would take em down even two at a time.
Originally posted by NibedicusHow much time do these guys have to prepare it wasn't like the Fellowship had days to prepare for the fighting.
Did you see the size of that door? Barely 2-3 uruks at a time could get thru. Added to a narror corridor and you have Hot Gates version 2 right there. A much smaller one. You won't need all 300 spartans to guard that.Also, that wasn't a small room. A narrow one, yes. But it had enough room to stash like close to 20 horses off screen as well as all the women and children (off screen as well) in the movie. A smart general (like Maximus) would fill these rooms with supplies first instead of horses and women/children.
Will certainly NOT store supplies near the walls or open courtyards where siege weapons, fire arrows and rot from dead bodies would get to them.
Not to mention the "secret path into the mountains" could well be a good place to store more supplies (also, Maximus/Leonidas/Balian would no doubt ASK if there was such a path EARLY. Seriously, who would FORGET to ask ppl about a secret escape path til much later when the battle has turned REAL badly?? That's some pretty crucial terrain/environment info missing from the battle plan right there).
Uruks were strong and savage. But were highly disorganized outside of the preplanned battle strat they had at the start of the battle. The concept of formations, flanking, skirmishing, maneuvering, etc. or overall warfare tactics just didnt exist that much for the LoTR bad guys (in the movies anyway).
You also have no idea how big these escape paths are, nor where they lead or even if they could half the supplies needed to alst more than a week in that room.
Basically anyone outside of that little keep is going to die once they get surrounded.
The Spartans are arguably the best fighting force here and they are a downgrade from the Elves yet you expect them to be the trump card in this battle.
I honestly think you are overselling the Spartans. The Uruk-Hai won't go down as easily as the Persians did. They are to heavily armed, armed for that. Just because they only used the crossbows a few times doesn't mean they aren't there and can not be used.
Edit: Mathayus wasn't exactly a speed shooter nor was he better than Legolas nor can you prove one arrow from him will be enough to stop the Uruk-Hai warrior. It also took him quite a bit of time to line up that bad@ss shot you keep mentioning on the king guy.
They are still better at stabby stabby than the Spartans.
It would stand to reason that the main supplies would be in the deepest most defended part of a siege fortress. With that in mind, Theoden (who's extremely familar with the keep as well as siege warfare) mentioned that he had more than enough supplies to outlast the uruks outside the wall with his army plus women and children. A smaller army (due to losses) would need much less. It would not be an unreasonable assertion that they'd have more than enough supplies here.
Again, keep's not little. Enough room for all his women/children villagers as well as 20 horses. But yes, anyone outside the keep would be no doubt overwhelmed. But the keep was designed for layered defend->retreat to next defensible position->defend-> retreat to next defensible position combat. They'd lose many but as Maximus is a better commander than Theoden or Aragorn, I'd say enough of the elite troops would survive to hold at the keep.
Myrmidons weren't bad either. And can you imagine Achiless, Conan, Mathayus and Maximus standing side-by-side with the Spartans holding a narrow corridor against a somewhat disorganized attackers trickling thru a narrow door? It would be a massacre. Eventually. They'd be able to build a corpse-wall made out of Uruk bodies, IMO.
I agree that we don't know how big the escape paths are, but as they are paths, more supplies can be stashed lineary on it.
Not overselling the Spartans IMO. Their organizatiom and battle tactics make them a nightmare for the poorly organized Uruks.
Also, again, IIRC they never used the crossbows EVER outside of just shooting ppl off the battlements. They exist, yes, but the Uruks were prolly too battle and blood hungry to use them effectively to break lines.
Edit. They were spotted in the mid afternoon IIRC and arrived at nightfall (Tho, again Maximus would have had mounted scouts patrolling the countryside who would have spotted them wayyy earlier than Aragorn did, I mean it's a freakin HORDE slow-marching towards your keep. And they really weren't trying to be quiet about it. Spotting them isn't really a problem). At least several hours notice. More than enough to set up a battle plan.
Originally posted by Newjak
Edit: Mathayus wasn't exactly a speed shooter nor was he better than Legolas nor can you prove one arrow from him will be enough to stop the Uruk-Hai warrior. It also took him quite a bit of time to line up that bad@ss shot you keep mentioning on the king guy.They are still better at stabby stabby than the Spartans.
That run took a while, tho, and IIRC, I remember him shooting not so slowly at the start of the movie. And you gotta admit, the king killshot was slow for dramaric effect.
I'd argue that. Legolas was an exception to the rule, no doubt. But I never really saw any impressive no-name elf feat outside of their stealth and archery. Plus no shields = automatically less effective in a formation.
Originally posted by NewjakA single troll would have taken a spear through the eye and dropped like a rhino. A single troll would also let a couple of midgets outwit him. Irrelevant since no trolls were at Helm's Deep.
They fought Trolls man.A single Troll would have devastated the Spartans, Achilles and his Mymodans, the Knights.
Swiftness Aragorn was able to swiftly dispatch foes so was Gimili.
And Lurtz was able to toss a shield with such accuracy, skill, and strength that he perfectly trapped Aragorn's head in it. Lurtz was obviously a formidable opponent and based on that one feat is tougher and better and more skilled than anything Achilles fought.
So was Sam. And Merry. And Eowyn. Your sentence went nowhere.
Lurtz was a b*tch. But he'd go down Boagrius style to Achilles. Or Mathayus. Or Conan. Aragorn had no screen feats more impressive than any of them. Neither did Gimli. And the two of them have been replaced by warriors far more formidable than they.
Originally posted by Newjak
They fought Trolls man.A single Troll would have devastated the Spartans, Achilles and his Mymodans, the Knights.
Swiftness Aragorn was able to swiftly dispatch foes so was Gimili.
And Lurtz was able to toss a shield with such accuracy, skill, and strength that he perfectly trapped Aragorn's head in it. Lurtz was obviously a formidable opponent and based on that one feat is tougher and better and more skilled than anything Achilles fought.
They fought that troll as a whole group and let's face it, without Legolas they wouldn't have brought it down as timely as they did... and yet even then they got pretty beaten up.
Aragorn and Gimli fought they're own share of fodder just like Achilles did (Urukai and Goblins vs. Trojans) but when it came to harder opponents you see the difference. Aragorn was getting hit and beat up by some opponents (Lurtz) and Gimli was getting hit by the normal rabble of worg riders. If Aragorn (or was it Legolas?) hadn't saved Gimli from that worg he'd be dead.
Achilles on the other hand walked through every competition he ever had with ease. He went through the whole war without a single hit except a scratch on his armor.
Legolas is on a whole different level though. I can't see anyone of the said warriors on this thread capable of replicating his feats. In fact if he was the one who faced Lurtz I have a feeling he'd have dispatched him way easier than Aragorn did.
In any case, we're still both in agreement that the Urukai end up conquering Helm's deep in this scenario.
Originally posted by FrothByte
In any case, we're still both in agreement that the Urukai end up conquering Helm's deep in this scenario.
An argument can certainly made for that. But, how do you think the Uruks would overwhelm the Spartans in the narrow building at the end of Two Towers?
Narrow corridor, narrower door, high bridge blocking access to it and protecting it from siege weapons, poor Uruk tactics (such as not using the crossbows effectively), more than adequate defender supplies, etc would really render a lot of the (edit!) Uruk's numbers useless.
Also, I think a lot of people are forgetting the Spartan's almost-superhuman "feats" here like one shotting a rhino with a THROWN spear and jumping ten feet in the air.
Originally posted by NewjakIf you look at the fight it looked liked Achilles wanted Hector to suffer, he was toying with him.
Feats man,Achilles was the best fighter in Troy but even he couldn't just plow through Hector without some difficulty and Hector had trouble with Ajax.
The LOTR characters were crazy with what they fought.
Aragorn, Legolas, even Gimili had some pretty crazy feats taking on Trolls, hordes of Goblins, Worgs, Elephants.
Plus the Uruk Kai army has crossbows something the 300 will have a tough time standing up to.
There is a reason why the Phalanx became outdated in history.
He definitely didn't have difficulty beating him.