Originally posted by Astner
In relation to what? Energy output?Let me put this in terms you can wrap your head around. The average human has a power level of 5. Roshi had a power level of 139.
And Roshi certainly seemed much more powerful than the average human.
Also, Roshi peaked at around...what....180?
But let me put it into terms you might be able to wrap your head around:
x*1.3 or even x^1.02 doesn't really work as a growth.
Maybe if you said, "it is a complex system with limits and jumps as the power progresses" then, yes, I would have not choice but to agree because that model would best fit the jumps observed on the meter for kilis.
For instance, 0-500 kilis is a step function for all power levels less than 1,000,000. 501-1000 is for all power levels from 1,000,001-1,000,000,000. 1001-2000 is for power levels 1,000,000,001-2,000,000,00. 2001-3000 is for power levels 2,000,000,001-4,000,000,000.
That is just one additional interpretation that fits better than a geometric growth and a linear growth model. There could be a complex system between each step function that arrives at a number between those margins, of course: a different geometric growth model for each step.
Originally posted by dadudemon
And Roshi certainly seemed much more powerful than the average human.Also, Roshi peaked at around...what....180?
But let me put it into terms you might be able to wrap your head around:
x*1.3 or even x^1.02 doesn't really work as a growth.
Originally posted by dadudemon
For instance, 0-500 kilis is a step function for all power levels less than 1,000,000.
Originally posted by dadudemon
That is just one additional interpretation that fits better than a geometric growth and a linear growth model.
Originally posted by dadudemon
There could be a complex system between each step function that arrives at a number between those margins, of course: a different geometric growth model for each step.
Originally posted by dadudemonHuh? As Cell demonstrated vs. SSJ2 Gohan, he had been holding back a vast amount of his power. Against everyone. The entire time. Fact is, Goku's power was nothing to Cell's during the Cell Games. They were not "evenly matched" by any means--- heck, Goku was literally awed by Cell's power when he fully powered up.
And yet, there's no way that Goku could be evenly matched with Cell unless it was relatively close to Cells...that's how.
Originally posted by dadudemonI wasn't aware that random people noticing slight differences in wording was enough to classify something as "fake"-- especially when the guide was very clearly published in some form of text(which makes it more valid than an average joe's online posts)...
But that is that takes a backseat to the obvious language issues that make it clearly a fake.
Either way, it doesn't really matter to me if the guide is fake, I just haven't seen anything but personal opinion stating such--- and sorry, but that isn't enough to accurately invalidate published text. Imo.
Originally posted by Astner
Actually they do. They're monotonically increasing bijective functions.
Honestly, I thought monotonically increasing was different than bijective. Teach me: how can those be in the same function? Yes, I am serious...I am not being sarcastic.
Originally posted by Astner
Do you even know what a step function is? The unit step function is θ(x) = 1 for all x≥0, and θ(x) = 0 for all x<0, making the general expression for a step function aθ(x+b). What you're implying is that there aren't any Kiri values between 0 and 500.
Yeah, it works. In fact, the step function I used was very very simple: textbook example.
Originally posted by Astner
You have no idea of what you're talking about.
Actually, I do. It is fairly simple, to me.
Originally posted by Astner
That's not a step function, what you're talking about is by defining functions on intervals. Something that's not required, and overall useless because you wouldn't be be able to compute the derivate (change) in given any point.
Nah, it is a step function. I think you've been doing such high-level math that you forgot about the lower-level stuff.
Here's what a simple step function looks like:
Mine is pretty easy to graph, as well. Graph it yourself.
Originally posted by Galan007
Huh? As Cell demonstrated vs. SSJ2 Gohan, he had been holding back a vast amount of his power. Against everyone. The entire time. Fact is, Goku's power was nothing to Cell's during the Cell Games. They were not "evenly matched" by any means--- heck, Goku was literally awed by Cell's power when he fully powered up.
He was not in awe. It was more like admiration and he knew Cell could go there the whole time.
And, actually, had Goku known about Cell's trick, he would have won against cell due to his superior martial arts skills and strategy (the recovery thing).
Next, Cell could not have been vastly superior to Goku because Goku was evenly matched with Cell to the onlookers but Goku and Korin knew Cell was stronger.
Lastly, Gohan was getting tooled and Goku was doing decently, before Gohan was SSJ2. This tells us that Gohan's ASSJ state was weaker than Goku's. We know that (SSJ2) it is a x2 powerup so Cell falls in somewhere between 1.x times more powerful than Goku but less than 2x powerful than Goku.
Goku was about even with Frieza and he was 150,000,000 and Frieza was 120,000,000: so goku had to have been closer to Cell's power than 80% when they fought...much closer as Piccolo, IIRC, remarks that they were even. So with Cell's full power-up, which was stated as "slightly stronger", he still would not have been that much more powerful than Goku.
Originally posted by Galan007
I wasn't aware that random people noticing slight differences in wording was enough to classify something as "fake"-- especially when the guide was very clearly published in some form of text(which makes it more valid than an average joe's online posts)...
Then it is a good thing that that person was not "people" and that person was not just some random person.
Additionally, he did the same exact thing as a linguistic forensic specialist would do: hardly just random technique.
The simple fact that it lacks the branding mark, anywhere, immediately makes it suspect: all other charts like that have a branding mark.
The linguistic problems themselves destroy any hope that this was legit: no native speaker would make that many mistakes.
Originally posted by Galan007
Either way, it doesn't really matter to me if the guide is fake, I just haven't seen anything but personal opinion stating such--- and sorry, but that isn't enough to accurately invalidate published text. Imo.
Here's the deal: I am a digital forensics expert (no, I am not kidding). Find the original and I will analyze the photo for you. I'm quite sure I can find problems with it having been Japanese.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Honestly, I thought monotonically increasing was different than bijective. Teach me: how can those be in the same function? Yes, I am serious...I am not being sarcastic.
Monotonic increasing means that f(x) ≤ f(y) ∀x ≤ y.
Let's look at the first function you described.
f(x) = 1.3x, thus f(x) - f(y) = 1.3(x - y) is only zero when x = y, meaning that it's injective. Since f(x) exists for all real numbers x it's also surjective. Meaning that it's bijective.
f(x+d) - f(x) = 1.3d ≥ 0 for all d ≥ 0, and ≤ 0 for all d ≤ 0, meaning that it's monotonic.
So f(x) = 1.3x is both bijective and monotonic.
______________________________
For the next function f(x) = x^1.02, we have f(x) - f(y) = x^1.02 - y^1.02. Rewrite x = yz, we now have the relation y^1.02(z-1). This condition is only satisfied if either z = 1, in which case y∙1 = y = x, or if y = 0, in which case x = 0∙z = 0, in any case x = y. Meaning that it's injective. It' obviously surjective as f(x) exists for all x. Meaning that it's bijective.
f(x+d) - f(x) = (x+d)^1.02 - x^1.02 ≥ 0 for all d ≥ 0, and ≤ 0 for all d ≤ 0. Meaning that it's monotonic. Taylor expand (x+d)^1.02 if it's not obvious.
So f(x) = x^1.02 is monotonic increasing and bijective.
/Single variable analysis 101
Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, it works. In fact, the step function I used was very very simple: textbook example.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Here's what a simple step function looks like:Mine is pretty easy to graph, as well. Graph it yourself.
But you defined a step from 0 Kiri to 500 Kiri, which is not only nonsensical but also not how the [[x]]-relation work. What you're referring to is called a piecewise defined constant function, and it's still nonsensical in context.
Originally posted by dadudemonAgain: Cell was vastly holding back against Goku throughout their entire battle. Goku was NEVER comparable to Cell, because Cell NEVER used all of his power against Goku.
He was not in awe. It was more like admiration and he knew Cell could go there the whole time.And, actually, had Goku known about Cell's trick, he would have won against cell due to his superior martial arts skills and strategy (the recovery thing).
Next, Cell could not have been vastly superior to Goku because Goku was evenly matched with Cell to the onlookers but Goku and Korin knew Cell was stronger.
Lastly, Gohan was getting tooled and Goku was doing decently, before Gohan was SSJ2. This tells us that Gohan's ASSJ state was weaker than Goku's. We know that (SSJ2) it is a x2 powerup so Cell falls in somewhere between 1.x times more powerful than Goku but less than 2x powerful than Goku.
Goku was about even with Frieza and he was 150,000,000 and Frieza was 120,000,000: so goku had to have been closer to Cell's power than 80% when they fought...much closer as Piccolo, IIRC, remarks that they were even. So with Cell's full power-up, which was stated as "slightly stronger", he still would not have been that much more powerful than Goku.
In fact, by his own accord, Cell had lost a significant amount of energy during his battle with Goku. Despite this, he still urged Goku to eat a Senzu bean toward the end of the battle, so that their fight would become more evenly matched:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14445465/db34pg085.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14445467/db34pg087.gif.html
This means even at FULL POWER Goku was only comparable to a drastically WEAKENED Cell.
But again, none of that matters because Cell was holding back his true power the ENTIRE time, just for his own personal amusement(he is part Saiyan, after all.) He ONLY displayed the full extent of his power against SSJ2 Gohan:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14445462/350103.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14445463/350107.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14445464/350108.gif.html
Trying to argue that Goku was comparable to an all out Cell is horribly illogical. Cell was vastly more powerful--- so powerful that Goku was helplessly incapable of bridging the power-gap between them... Only SSJ2 Gohan was capable of doing that.
Originally posted by dadudemonThis side of the discussion has become stale. If you've had the ability to analyze the scan, then you should have done that right off the bat, and saved us all a headache. 😉
Here's the deal: I am a digital forensics expert (no, I am not kidding). Find the original and I will analyze the photo for you. I'm quite sure I can find problems with it having been Japanese.
Originally posted by Galan007
Again: Cell was vastly holding back against Goku throughout their entire battle. Goku was NEVER comparable to Cell, because Cell NEVER used all of his power against Goku.In fact, by his own accord, Cell had lost a significant amount of energy during his battle with Goku. Despite this, he still urged Goku to eat a Senzu bean toward the end of the battle, so that their fight would become more evenly matched:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14445465/db34pg085.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14445467/db34pg087.gif.html
This means even at FULL POWER Goku was only comparable to a drastically WEAKENED Cell.But again, none of that matters because Cell was holding back his true power the ENTIRE time, just for his own personal amusement(he is part Saiyan, after all.) He ONLY displayed the full extent of his power against SSJ2 Gohan:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14445462/350103.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14445463/350107.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14445464/350108.gif.html
No, that means at full power, Goku was nearly evenly matched with a Cell that was holding back a bit.
Also, Perfect Cell was drastically weakened because a significant portion of his body was just vaporized in addition to expending tons of energy against Goku.
Originally posted by Galan007
Trying to argue that Goku was comparable to an all out Cell is horribly illogical. Cell was vastly more powerful--- so powerful that Goku was helplessly incapable of bridging the power-gap between them... Only SSJ2 Gohan was capable of doing that.
Incorrect: trying to argue that Perfect Cell was vastly more powerful than ASSJ Goku is horrible logic as I've explained and used examples. You have not addressed the bulk of my argument.
Originally posted by Galan007
This side of the discussion has become stale. If you've had the ability to analyze the scan, then you should have done that right off the bat, and saved us all a headache. 😉
It only works if I have the original. Lots of data gets added and changed as the image is resaved, resized, different compression methods used (such as saving from a png to a jpg).
Originally posted by dadudemon...Yet even in such a weakened state, Cell wanted Goku to eat a senzu bean so that their fight would become more evenly matched. So again: this means even at full power Goku only stood a "slight" chance against a vastly weakened Cell.
Also, Perfect Cell was drastically weakened because a significant portion of his body was just vaporized in addition to expending tons of energy against Goku.
This was explicitly stated in the manga. Trying to argue against it is completely illogical, and holds no weight whatsoever.
Originally posted by dadudemonYour examples are meaningless in comparison to statements/actions from the manga itself. Cell WAS vastly more powerful than Goku, because even at full power Goku would have been hard-pressed to match a vastly WEAKENED Cell.
Incorrect: trying to argue that Perfect Cell was vastly more powerful than ASSJ Goku is horrible logic as I've explained and used examples. You have not addressed the bulk of my argument.
Aside from that, Cell never displayed the full extent of his power against Goku, he ONLY powered up to his max against SSJ2 Gohan. This, again, was explicitly stated in the manga.
Goku's power was nothing to Cell's. This is canon fact. Dunno why in the world you're trying to dispute the explicit evidence I've posted.
Originally posted by dadudemonSorry, I don't know where I found the original. It's been too long. 🙁
It only works if I have the original. Lots of data gets added and changed as the image is resaved, resized, different compression methods used (such as saving from a png to a jpg).
Originally posted by Galan007
...Yet even in such a weakened state, Cell wanted Goku to eat a senzu bean so that their fight would become more evenly matched. So again: this means even at full power Goku only stood a "slight" chance against a vastly weakened Cell.
That is baseless speculation: nothing supports this argument. Here's what really was going on: Goku was virtually exhausted: on empty. Cell was not...but he was vastly depowered. In order for the fight to continue to be fun and interesting, Goku would need to go back to full. However, that would have been a fatal choice from the overconfident Cell.
Originally posted by Galan007
This was explicitly stated in the manga. Trying to argue against it is completely illogical, and holds no weight whatsoever.
It was not. You are using words that were not in the manga. Your words hold no weight because they are fiction.
Originally posted by Galan007
Your examples are meaningless in comparison to statements/actions from the manga itself. Cell WAS vastly more powerful than Goku, because even at full power Goku would have been hard-pressed to match a vastly WEAKENED Cell.
Then you contradict canon and are therefore wrong. My examples are canon examples. My overreaching point is a canon point: Gohan, in SSJ2, is 2x more powerful. Perfect Cell was stronger than ASSJ Gohan. Cell was vastly outlcassed by SSJ2 Gohan even when Cell used his full power. That is all canon information. Therefore, Cell was closer to Goku's level than was Gohan's SSJ2 level. Why? Cause Goku and Frieza were 150m and 120m (Frieza was 80% of Goku) and they were fairly evenly matched. I'll requote this post the more you continue to talk it into circles.
Originally posted by Galan007
Aside from that, Cell never displayed the full extent of his power against Goku, he ONLY powered up to his max against SSJ2 Gohan. This, again, was explicitly stated in the manga.
Indeed and Goku knew he was holding back in addition to onlookers saying that Cell was evenly matched with Goku when they fought. This whole time, Goku knew Cell was stronger and holding back...and also knew that Cell was slightly stronger. Keyword: slightly.
Originally posted by Galan007
Goku's power was nothing to Cell's.
Inorrect; they were fairly close in power, even when Cell showed his full power. That's a paraphrase of both Korin's and Goku's words.
Originally posted by Galan007
This is canon fact. Dunno why in the world you're trying to dispute the explicit evidence I've posted.
Mostly because you're using something false and trying to pass it off as canon.
Originally posted by Galan007
Sorry, I don't know where I found the original. It's been too long. 🙁
You would not have found the original. You probably found a copy of a copy of a resize, of an edit, of a copy, of a different format.
This is getting old/circular... I've only got a few more posts in me before stop caring, so...
Originally posted by dadudemonWhen was it so much as alluded to that it would have been a fatal choice for Cell to allow Goku to power back up? That's a rhetorical question because that wasn't stated. What was stated is that Cell WANTED Goku to regain his full strength so that the fight would be more evenly matched, and therefore more spectacular. Why would Cell WANT a closer fight, you ask? Because he's part Saiyan. End of story.
However, that would have been a fatal choice from the overconfident Cell.
Assuming the theoretical fight between FP Goku and a weakened Cell would have been anything but an even match is purely your own speculation. Nothing on panel supports you. All evidence points to a WEAKENED Cell being equal to a full power Goku.
Originally posted by dadudemonEverything I've stated can be referenced in the scans I posted above.
It was not. You are using words that were not in the manga. Your words hold no weight because they are fiction.
Originally posted by dadudemonSSJ2 Gohan being more powerful than Cell has NOTHING to do with this discussion. Cell was a LOT more powerful than Goku. Their powers only *seemed* close because Cell was holding back a LOT of energy the entire time. It's really that simple. If you won't take my word for it, then look at the darn scans!
Then you contradict canon and are therefore wrong. My examples are canon examples. My overreaching point is a canon point: Gohan, in SSJ2, is 2x more powerful. Perfect Cell was stronger than ASSJ Gohan. Cell was vastly outlcassed by SSJ2 Gohan even when Cell used his full power. That is all canon information. Therefore, Cell was closer to Goku's level than was Gohan's SSJ2 level. Why?
Originally posted by dadudemonWhen was it stated (by anyone) that Cell, at full power, was only "slightly" more powerful than Goku?
Indeed and Goku knew he was holding back in addition to onlookers saying that Cell was evenly matched with Goku when they fought. This whole time, Goku knew Cell was stronger and holding back...and also knew that Cell was slightly stronger. Keyword: slightly.
Originally posted by dadudemonScan please. I want to see the character statement that says Goku's power was close to full power Cell's.
Inorrect; they were fairly close in power, even when Cell showed his full power. That's a paraphrase of both Korin's and Goku's words.
Originally posted by dadudemonAgain, everything I've stated can be referenced in the scans I posted above.
Mostly because you're using something false and trying to pass it off as canon.
Originally posted by dadudemon🙁
You would not have found the original. You probably found a copy of a copy of a resize, of an edit, of a copy, of a different format.
Originally posted by Galan007
When was it so much as alluded to that it would have been a fatal choice for Cell to allow Goku to power back up? That's a rhetorical question because that wasn't stated. What was stated is that Cell WANTED Goku to regain his full strength so that the fight would be more evenly matched, and therefore more spectacular. Why would Cell WANT a closer fight, you ask? Because he's part Saiyan. End of story.
No allusion: Goku and Cell were fairly evenly matched. Goku was drained, cell was vastly depowered. Cell was only slightly stronger than Goku.
Originally posted by Galan007
Assuming the theoretical fight between FP Goku and a weakened Cell would have been anything but an even match is purely your own speculation. Nothing on panel supports you. All evidence points to a WEAKENED Cell being equal to a full power Goku.
I'd agree that it is somewhere around "equal" at that point...IF Goku had taken a senzu. Goku has superior fighting techniques and abilities, however.
Nothing supports a greatly weakened Cell being equal to a full powered Goku. Cell and Goku were nearly even. Cell was holding back in his fight with Goku and they appeared dead even to onlookers.
Cell boasts that if Goku eats a Senzu, he might have a slight chance of winning:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/dragon_ball/v34/c006/10.html
Goku remarks that Cell has most of his ki left even though his was blown to bits:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/dragon_ball/v34/c005/9.html
Originally posted by Galan007
Everything I've stated can be referenced in the scans I posted above.
Wrong: none of your main points were in the scans. You used information in the scans to make speculative points, not canon points.
Originally posted by Galan007
SSJ2 Gohan being more powerful than Cell has NOTHING to do with this discussion.
Incorrect and here's why:
"My overreaching point is a canon point: Gohan, in SSJ2, is 2x more powerful. Perfect Cell was stronger than ASSJ Gohan. Cell was vastly outlcassed by SSJ2 Gohan even when Cell used his full power. That is all canon information. Therefore, Cell was closer to Goku's level than was Gohan's SSJ2 level. Why? Cause Goku and Frieza were 150m and 120m (Frieza was 80% of Goku) and they were fairly evenly matched. I'll requote this post the more you continue to talk it into circles."
Originally posted by Galan007
Cell was a LOT more powerful than Goku.
"Incorrect: he was only a bit stronger than Goku as stated by Goku and Korin."
Originally posted by Galan007
Their powers only *seemed* close because Cell was holding back a LOT of energy the entire time. It's really that simple. If you won't take my word for it, then look at the darn scans!
Incorrect: he was holding back just a bit so he could be even with Goku. That "just a bit" was the difference between holding back and not holding back.
Originally posted by Galan007
When was it stated (by anyone) that Cell, at full power, was only "slightly" more powerful than Goku?
"Incorrect: he was only a bit stronger than Goku as stated by Goku and Korin."
Originally posted by Galan007
Scan please. I want to see the character statement that says Goku's power was close to full power Cell's.
"Incorrect: he was only a bit stronger than Goku as stated by Goku and Korin."
The burden of proof is on you to show that your supposed "Full Power" Cell state was excluded from Korin's and Goku's assessments.
This will be my final post on this topic.
Originally posted by dadudemonCell was holding back the entire time. What isn't computing here? Seriously, your 'points' entirely ignore what was shown on panel... This is getting dumb.
No allusion: Goku and Cell were fairly evenly matched. Goku was drained, cell was vastly depowered. Cell was only slightly stronger than Goku.
Here we see Cell finally(for the first time) tap into the full extent of his power against SSJ2 Gohan...
-Cell-
"I'll show you the fearfulness of my full power.":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14523022/350103.gif.html
Begins powering up to max:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14523023/350104.gif.html
-Goku-
"AT LAST Cell's going to show his full fighting power. It feels like it's going to destroy the whole world, that's an incredible ki!":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14523024/350108.gif.html
That said, Cell and Goku only *appeared*(key word) to be evenly matched because Cell never displayed the full extent of his power during their fight. If he had, the fight wouldn't have been nearly as fun for him. That's why, even after becoming depowered, Cell still gave Goku the chance to eat a senzu before continuing. He wanted a good fight.
This isn't rocket science.
Originally posted by dadudemonSo now you're agreeing that full power Goku=weakened Cell? So confused.
I'd agree that it is somewhere around "equal" at that point...IF Goku had taken a senzu.
Originally posted by dadudemonWhen was this stated?
Goku has superior fighting techniques and abilities, however.
The only 'advantage' Goku had was instantaneous movement(an ability Cell would later copy anyway.) As far as fighting technique goes, unless you have proof(ie. scans) to back up your opinion that Goku was a better fighter than Cell, then I will simply write off your statement as more unsubstantiated conjecture.
To the contrary, Vegeta stated that Cell was always "one or two steps AHEAD OF Goku":
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/dragon_ball/v34/c006/10.html
Originally posted by dadudemonThey were even. Why? Because Cell was holding back the entire time. Read the scans. It's right there in black and white. The ONLY person Cell displayed his full power against was SSJ2 Gohan. Read the scans.
Nothing supports a greatly weakened Cell being equal to a full powered Goku. Cell and Goku were nearly even. Cell was holding back in his fight with Goku and they appeared dead even to onlookers.
Originally posted by dadudemonThanks for reposting something I've already posted. A weakened Cell WANTED Goku to eat a senzu to make the fight more evenly matched--- and even then Cell stated Goku would only have a "slight" chance of winning.
Cell boasts that if Goku eats a Senzu, he might have a slight chance of winning:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/dragon_ball/v34/c006/10.html
A weakened Cell was roughly equal to a full power Goku. Deal.
Originally posted by dadudemonCome on now. Don't purposefully leave out info just to help your point; that borders on trolling.
Goku remarks that Cell has most of his ki left even though his was blown to bits:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/dragon_ball/v34/c005/9.html
It was outright stated by both Cell and Goku that he [Cell] lost quite a bit of power during their battle (Cell WAS holding back, after all)...
-Goku-
"You should have lost a lot of strength with that attack.":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14523062/db34pg076.gif.html
-Cell-
"I've lost an unexpected amount of strength. If you were back at full power you would have a slight chance of winning.":
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/dragon_ball/v34/c006/10.html
Despite losing so much power, Cell still urges Goku to eat a senzu:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14523063/db34pg085.gif.html
So like I've been saying: a fully powered Goku only had a "SLIGHT" chance of beating a severely underpowered Cell-- which means that he logically had NO chance of beating a fully powered Cell. Again, this isn't rocket science.
Hell, even Roshi noted that Goku never had a chance...
"It certainly looks like a good fight BUT... Unlike Goku, Cell still looks fresh. GOKU CAN'T WIN. It looks to me like he's fighting in spite of that knowledge.":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14523219/db34pg084.gif.html
How many scans do I have to post to drive the point home?
Originally posted by dadudemonWhich is simply a red herring that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Incorrect and here's why:"My overreaching point is a canon point: Gohan, in SSJ2, is 2x more powerful. Perfect Cell was stronger than ASSJ Gohan. Cell was vastly outlcassed by SSJ2 Gohan even when Cell used his full power. That is all canon information. Therefore, Cell was closer to Goku's level than was Gohan's SSJ2 level. Why? Cause Goku and Frieza were 150m and 120m (Frieza was 80% of Goku) and they were fairly evenly matched. I'll requote this post the more you continue to talk it into circles."
SSJ2 Gohan>Cell>Goku. We already knew that stuff. Furthermore I've never said that the difference between Cell and Goku was the same difference that existed between SSJ2 Gohan and Cell. However, there was still a VAST difference between Goku and Cell--- at full power he [Cell] was more than just "slightly" above Goku, like you've stated.
Originally posted by dadudemon*insert facepalm gif here*
"Incorrect: he was only a bit stronger than Goku as stated by Goku and Korin."Incorrect: he was holding back just a bit so he could be even with Goku. That "just a bit" was the difference between holding back and not holding back.
"Incorrect: he was only a bit stronger than Goku as stated by Goku and Korin."
"Incorrect: he was only a bit stronger than Goku as stated by Goku and Korin."
Unless you have proof(ie. scans) to back up your opinion that Goku was only "a bit" stronger than full power Cell, then I will simply write your statement off as more unsubstantiated conjecture.
Originally posted by dadudemon"Unless you have proof(ie. scans) to back up your opinion that Goku was only "a bit" stronger than full power Cell, then I will simply write your statement off as more unsubstantiated conjecture."
The burden of proof is on you to show that your supposed "Full Power" Cell state was excluded from Korin's and Goku's assessments.
Reposting is fun!
Originally posted by NemeBrosure he would have.
If Cell were really holding back tremendously, he wouldn't have been vastly drained from their fight.
cell held back against goku, he made himself roughly equal with goku actually. cell could have powered up at any time and easily beaten goku if he wanted to, but that isn't how cell was. cell had a saiyan mentality, he always wanted the best possible fight. that's why he allowed the z fighters to train before the cell games. that's why he kept pushing gohan until he transformed ss2, etc.
heh and the fact that it was stated that max power goku would have only had a slight chance of beating cell, even when cell was weakened, tells me all i need to know. galan is spot on. it isn't like he's spouting opinion, hes posted numerous manga pages that concrete what hes saying. whether you agree or not, theres no way to discredit the manga itself.
Originally posted by Galan007
This will be my final post on this topic.[QUOTE=14137133]Originally posted by Galan007
[B]Cell was holding back the entire time. What isn't computing here? Seriously, your 'points' entirely ignore what was shown on panel... This is getting dumb.Here we see Cell finally(for the first time) tap into the full extent of his power against SSJ2 Gohan...
-Cell-
"I'll show you the fearfulness of my full power.":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14523022/350103.gif.htmlBegins powering up to max:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14523023/350104.gif.html-Goku-
"AT LAST Cell's going to show his full fighting power. It feels like it's going to destroy the whole world, that's an incredible ki!":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14523024/350108.gif.htmlThat said, Cell and Goku only *appeared*(key word) to be evenly matched because Cell never displayed the full extent of his power during their fight. If he had, the fight wouldn't have been nearly as fun for him. That's why, even after becoming depowered, Cell still gave Goku the chance to eat a senzu before continuing. He wanted a good fight.
This isn't rocket science.
What part about Cell being slightly more powerful than Goku are you not getting? Cell made himself equal to Goku but he was still only slightly more powerful.
Originally posted by Galan007
So now you're agreeing that full power Goku=weakened Cell? So confused.
No, this: "I'd agree that it is somewhere around "equal" at that point...IF Goku had taken a senzu."
Meaning: If the Cell that was weakened from having his arms and head blown off, who was holding back against Goku, fought a Goku that just took a Senzu bean, at that very moment, Goku would have been around that current Cell's all-out form. That's confusing as hell but just think of it this way: The Cell that boasted that Goku might have a slight chance of winning IF Goku took a senzu was boasting/talking out of his ass: Goku would have been stronger than Cell.
Originally posted by Galan007
When was this stated?The only 'advantage' Goku had was instantaneous movement(an ability Cell would later copy anyway.) As far as fighting technique goes, unless you have proof(ie. scans) to back up your opinion that Goku was a better fighter than Cell, then I will simply write off your statement as more unsubstantiated conjecture.
To the contrary, Vegeta stated that Cell was always "one or two steps AHEAD OF Goku":
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/dragon_ball/v34/c006/10.html
Simply because Goku was able to take on a Cell that had a myriad of genetically infused techniques and Goku stood up against them all and even defeated Cell in a fair fight. Had Goku known of Cell's ability to regen, he would have won that fight. It was Goku's experience and superior martial arts skills that allowed him to stand up to all of Cell's techniques. That is not unsubstantiated conjecture: that happened in the manga.
Originally posted by Galan007
They were even. Why? Because Cell was holding back the entire time.
This has never been disputed. Why make the same point so many times?
Originally posted by Galan007
Read the scans. It's right there in black and white. The ONLY person Cell displayed his full power against was SSJ2 Gohan. Read the scans.
This point is irrelevant: read my posts. "Gohan, in SSJ2, is 2x more powerful. Perfect Cell was stronger than ASSJ Gohan. Cell was vastly outlcassed by SSJ2 Gohan even when Cell used his full power. That is all canon information. Therefore, Cell was closer to Goku's level than was Gohan's SSJ2 level. Why? Cause Goku and Frieza were 150m and 120m (Frieza was 80% of Goku) and they were fairly evenly matched. I'll requote this post the more you continue to talk it into circles."
Originally posted by Galan007
Thanks for reposting something I've already posted. A weakened Cell WANTED Goku to eat a senzu to make the fight more evenly matched--- and even then Cell stated Goku would only have a "slight" chance of winning.
"The Cell that boasted that Goku might have a slight chance of winning IF Goku took a senzu was boasting/talking out of his ass: Goku would have been stronger than Cell." and "Cell was talking out of his ass."
Originally posted by Galan007
A weakened Cell was roughly equal to a full power Goku. Deal.
A slightly weakened Cell was roughly equal to a full power Goku. Why? Because Goku was slightly weaker than Cell: stated on panel more than once. So if Cell was slightly weakened and Goku was in a full power state...here his the math:
Goku+slightly more power = Cell
Goku=Cell-slightly more power
That's pretty dang simple. Why does this not computer for you?
And, as I stated, Goku's experience and techniques would give him the win against a truly equal Cell.
Originally posted by Galan007
Come on now. Don't purposefully leave out info just to help your point; that borders on trolling.
Woah. What are you doing? I made one point, here. You cut up that section of my post and isolated just that one section and then pretended I was leaving out information.
Let's do this again: quote this entire section, take the main point from this entire section, and respond to that point:
"I'd agree that it is somewhere around "equal" at that point...IF Goku had taken a senzu. Goku has superior fighting techniques and abilities, however.
Nothing supports a greatly weakened Cell being equal to a full powered Goku. Cell and Goku were nearly even. Cell was holding back in his fight with Goku and they appeared dead even to onlookers.
Cell boasts that if Goku eats a Senzu, he might have a slight chance of winning:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/drag...34/c006/10.html
Goku remarks that Cell has most of his ki left even though his was blown to bits:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/drag...v34/c005/9.html"
That whole section is one point, not multiple. Don't cut it up and pretend I am leaving out information. That section basically says the following:
Goku+slightly more power = Cell
Goku=Cell-slightly more power
Originally posted by Galan007
It was outright stated by both Cell and Goku that he [Cell] lost quite a bit of power during their battle (Cell WAS holding back, after all)...-Goku-
"You should have lost a lot of strength with that attack.":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14523062/db34pg076.gif.html-Cell-
"I've lost an unexpected amount of strength. If you were back at full power you would have a slight chance of winning.":
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/dragon_ball/v34/c006/10.htmlDespite losing so much power, Cell still urges Goku to eat a senzu:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14523063/db34pg085.gif.htmlSo like I've been saying: a fully powered Goku only had a "SLIGHT" chance of beating a severely underpowered Cell-- which means that he logically had NO chance of beating a fully powered Cell. Again, this isn't rocket science.
Hell, even Roshi noted that Goku never had a chance...
"It certainly looks like a good fight BUT... Unlike Goku, Cell still looks fresh. GOKU CAN'T WIN. It looks to me like he's fighting in spite of that knowledge.":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14523219/db34pg084.gif.html
That's a whole bunch of words just to make the same points I've been making. You're not supporting your case, at all: you're proving my point. You're indirectly admitting I am right. Look at what you've done: you looked up Roshi's words that supports my point that Cell was lowering his power to be equal to Goku. You pointed out another part where I was saying Cell lost power and a fully powered Goku would be equal (ignore Cell's boasting: Goku would have mopped the floor with that weakened version of Cell).
In other words: get your own points and stop making mine.
