Originally posted by Casper WhiteyHe also couldn't sense (or see) that Anakin was pretty upset at "someone" he was afraid to lose. He was so stupid that he couldn't figure out Anakin was obsessed with Padme, and he gave him some useless platitude to console him. PT Yoda was one of many retarded characters.
Seriously, why did Yoda split from Obi Wan and Face Sidious alone? He and Obi were both right there on the same planet as Sidious, yet Yoda thought it better to face Sidious alone and send Obi Wan across the galaxy to face Vader.Dumb move.
Originally posted by Casper Whitey
Seriously, why did Yoda split from Obi Wan and Face Sidious alone? He and Obi were both right there on the same planet as Sidious, yet Yoda thought it better to face Sidious alone and send Obi Wan across the galaxy to face Vader.Dumb move.
Dude, I brought that up a few years ago in the Star Wars forum, they came after me like a pack of rabid fanboys.
Their main response was that Obi Wan would "get in the way", no proof provided, but I got the impression it was a fact.
The other criticism I made was the fight scene b/w Obi Wan and Anakin when they had trouble balancing/walking across the beams. I said that wasn't good choreography or Jedi Master-like (Luke Skywalker didn't have trouble with balance in OT, neither do any Jedi in the EU, Cinematics). The response I got was... not sure what it was, but somehow my views were invalid.
If anyone wants some entertainment, you know where to go, the force is strong there.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Fatalism and vague warnings =/= wisdom. It equals tight-lipped optimism. Saying "it all worked out in the end" (thankfully) doesn't excuse Gandalf from not speaking up in the first place. There was no practical need to withhold information.
All I can say is that he made the danger apparent, without having to say the obvious. Besides, it's not like the Fellowship (with the exception of the Hobbits maybe) didn't know of Durin's Bane and the fact that Moria had long been infested with Goblins, and only recently recolonized by Balin and company. Point being, they all knew Moria was dangerous, and Gandalf didn't have to mention the Balrog. It would have just unnecessarily scared the Fellowship, since Gandalf knew they could very well meet dwarves or avoid anyone altogether in the Mines. That's all from me.
And the Eagles can be detected and sensed by Sauron, but a Hobbit carrying the One Ring escapes his gaze--even when his gaze falls directly on that hobbit at one point? And no... there was no arrow range the Eagles needed to be in. That mountain is gigantic. Unless there's anti-grav Orcs flying above the top, the Eagles are safe. And again, it's not that the Eagles weren't used, it was that they weren't asked. They weren't even asked to fly them over the mountains--the place Gandalf was afraid of.
Those are just some reasons that I have thought of as to why the Eagles weren't asked/used. Some others could be that:
* Eagles, because they are such a powerful race, may be tempted by the Ring - Gwaihir might take the Ring for himself. The Hobbits were chosen because they had special resilience to the Ring's power, and even then, Frodo claimed the Ring for himself at the end. It's simply too risky to place the Ring in the Eagles' "claws."
* Eagles have a similar 'policy' like that of the Istari - forbidden to directly counter Sauron, and only assist when the primary races of Middle Earth need it. Furthermore, they are technically a more neutral race, and so their involvement would be even lesser than that of the Istari. The Eagles would have never agreed to the mission, even if asked.
* The whole point of the Fellowship was to be a covert mission - even if Sauron knew the Ring was found and in the hands of a Hobbit, he didn't have any information on its whereabouts. Eagles flying the Ring to Mordor would have been bound to draw attention.
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As for Star Wars, I didn't understand why Yoda and Obi-Wan couldn't have just gone to Mustafar together and killed Vader. Who cares if Sidious knew? He would have essentially 'lost.'
"Scaring" the Fellowship shouldn't even have been a phrase going through Gandalf's mind (I'm sure it wasn't). Scaring the Hobbits maybe, but not the rest. And given Gandalf's personal praise for Hobbits' bravery and resilience, their recent showing of standing up to the Nazgul, and the very nature of their quest... unwillingness to "scare" them isn't even on the table. There was no indication that anyone besides Gandalf knew what was going on inside Moria. And he still decided to withhold important information, insist they go the ostensibly hard way 'round (without telling them why), and leave the vital decision to go forward or turn back to an unknowing Hobbit--in the middle of a killer storm. This route of theirs and the options available should have been discussed ad nauseam and to great detail in Rivendell. Everybody, but Gandalf especially, displayed a distinct lack of wisdom.
The Eagle thing is all just speculation from fans at this point. The issue was never discussed in the film, nor I think in the novels. It's a plot hole.
And the PT is nothing but one giant plot hole, so no surprises there.
Wisdom point being: Dumbledore>>Gandalf>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Yoda.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
"Scaring" the Fellowship shouldn't even have been a phrase going through Gandalf's mind (I'm sure it wasn't). Scaring the Hobbits maybe, but not the rest. And given Gandalf's personal praise for Hobbits' bravery and resilience, their recent showing of standing up to the Nazgul, and the very nature of their quest... unwillingness to "scare" them isn't even on the table. There was no indication that anyone besides Gandalf knew what was going on inside Moria. And he still decided to withhold important information, insist they go the ostensibly hard way 'round (without telling them why), and leave the vital decision to go forward or turn back to an unknowing Hobbit--in the middle of a killer storm. This route of theirs and the options available should have been discussed ad nauseam and to great detail in Rivendell. Everybody, but Gandalf especially, displayed a distinct lack of wisdom.
Hmm, yeah I see your point in why he wouldn't tell them out of not scaring them.
Still, the movie didn't want to spoil to the audience that the "shadow and flame" Saruman is talking about is an 18 foot fire demon from the ancient world. It was all done for dramatic purpose. Everyone in the books knew of the Balrog (and in the books they recognize it upon sight). It's evident in the films that everyone in the party, except for perhaps the Hobbits, would have known of Durin's Bane (definitely Gandalf, Gimli, and Legolas for sure). Boromir only asks, "What is this new devilry?" later on because the Fellowship (sans Gandalf) isn't familiar with what a Balrog physically looks like. Everyone knew the danger of Moria beforehand.
And the route was discussed prior. That voice over of Gandalf in the "Ring Moves South" sequence indicates they had a planned path. There was no need for extended discussion - there really wasn't any other fallback options except for the Pass of Caradhras. In the end, each option was equally bad - continue forward in the blizzard, go back and head south towards Saruman, or go subterranean though Moria. Boromir wanted one option, Gimli the other. In the end, he left the option to Frodo because he trusted that his decision will ultimately work out - and also the movie did it for thematic element (since in the books Aragorn and Gandalf discuss the decision).
Ultimately, my entire point here is that even though Gandalf doesn't directly mention the Balrog in the blizzard, Frodo knew well enough that Moria was a dangerous place. Considering his monumental role as a whole in directing Sauron's downfall, I think Gandalf more than makes up for this blip.
Galadriel: "Needless were none of the deeds of Gandalf in life."
The Eagle thing is all just speculation from fans at this point. The issue was never discussed in the film, nor I think in the novels. It's a plot hole.
I don't think it's far to deduct wisdom points from Gandalf due to a plot hole. Even then, the reason why the Eagles weren't asked could be explained logically through speculation.
Wisdom point being: Dumbledore>>Gandalf>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Yoda.
Why would you say Dumbledore is "> >" than Gandalf in wisdom? Dumbledore's decision to isolate himself from Harry in OOTP completely backfired and ultimately resulted in Sirius's death , and nearly got Harry and co. killed. Dumbledore even admits his mistake.
Except Gimli. And everyone. Only Gandalf gave any indication that shit was serious in those mines. The movie doesn't get a free pass just because important things may have happened off-screen. If it doesn't show it, or show the characters acknowledging it, then it didn't happen. Speculation and wishful thinking from the fans doesn't change that. Gandalf dropped the ball about Moria, everyone dropped the ball about asking the Eagles, and Gandalf is not the ultra wise superman simply because he looks impressive and things turned out alright in the end. He also noted Pippin's excitement about the Palantir, but instead of hiding it away somewhere, or keeping it under tighter guard, he simply keeps out where anyone can see it. Not wise.
He sounds wise. He looks wise. But he doesn't do wise things. He's no more impressive than Aragorn.
Yes it is fair, because it's never explained. It's why Yoda can be considered nearly retarded. Lousy writing, editing, and story turned him from a semi-wise guy in the OT, to a total dumbass in the PT.
And Dumbledore>> Gandalf because Dumbledore has actually been shown to be wise. Dumbledore's biggest f*ck-up was the OotP example, but beyond that he's been consistently shown to have his shit together, knows what he's doing, and has amazing foresight. He's just been more impressive in those regards than Gandalf. And, at least until Michael Gambon butchered the character, he also was far less prone to anger or temper.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Except Gimli. And everyone. Only Gandalf gave any indication that shit was serious in those mines. The movie doesn't get a free pass just because important things may have happened off-screen. If it doesn't show it, or show the characters acknowledging it, then it didn't happen. Speculation and wishful thinking from the fans doesn't change that. Gandalf dropped the ball about Moria
Saruman says, "The Dwarves delved too greedily and too deep. You know what they awoke in darkness of Khazad-Dum. Shadow and flame." The movie transcript reads, and the film depicts, that "Legolas's eyes show only fear - he clearly knows what the beast is." Gandalf knew of Durin's Bane. Legolas knew of Durin's Bane. Gimli the dwarf knew of Durin's Bane. Point being, members of the Fellowship knew of the Balrog and/or Moria was dangerous. Gandalf, in his hesitance to enter the Mines, emphasized that danger to everyone. Therefore, even though Gandalf didn't mention the Balrog on the pass, I wouldn't go so far as to call it "dropping the ball."
Considering the situation they were in during the blizzard, with Boromir saying "this will be death of the Hobbits" if they continued on the pass, they only had two options: go south towards Saruman and certain danger or face uncertainty in Moria. And if not for the Watcher in the Water, they wouldn't have even continued forward once they saw the bodies.
everyone dropped the ball about asking the Eagles, and Gandalf is not the ultra wise superman simply because he looks impressive and things turned out alright in the end. He also noted Pippin's excitement about the Palantir, but instead of hiding it away somewhere, or keeping it under tighter guard, he simply keeps out where anyone can see it. Not wise.
They didn't drop the ball on the Eagles. If we're only using movie scenes to explain why things didn't occur, then the reason they couldn't ask the Eagles was because the messenger Moth was nowhere to be seen. Gandalf could only contact Gwaihir because the Moth came to him. The Moth didn't pop up during the Council, ergo nobody could contact the Eagles.
And this is just nitpicking. Gandalf couldn't just hide the Palantir elsewhere in the castle where somebody else could stumble upon it. And he wouldn't trust others to look after something that dangerous and tempting. The safest place for the Palantir was right next to Gandalf, where even if it was taken from him, he would know instantly.
And Dumbledore>> Gandalf because Dumbledore has actually been shown to be wise. Dumbledore's biggest f*ck-up was the OotP example, but beyond that he's been consistently shown to have his shit together, knows what he's doing, and has amazing foresight. He's just been more impressive in those regards than Gandalf. And, at least until Michael Gambon butchered the character, he also was far less prone to anger or temper.
If Gandalf loses major wisdom points because of Moria and Palantir, Dumbledore completely dropped the ball in OOTP. That was a terrible mistake that's much worse than Gandalf's mistakes.
Care to provide examples where Dumbledore demonstrates greater feats of wisdom than Gandalf?
I've got to go with Albus Dumbledore. He clearly understands the wisdom that a man can still learn, even when it seems that he knows everything. He did say that he made mistakes - just that his mistakes were rather disastrous because they were few and far between. A wise man knows that he is not infallible.
He was clever enough to make the deal with Snape when he made the whoopsie with the Resurrection stone, a deal that would allow Snape first-hand access to the mind of a maniac.
I agree he made a big mistake when he kept Harry away from him when Harry went into CAPSLOCK! OF RAGE state. But it was a wise philosophy that helped make up his mind...
Gandalf was a little too self-assured for my taste - the books didn't show him as smug.
Yoda - well, I don't believe he belongs in the list. Maybe another LotR character - like Elrond?
Originally posted by ares834
Still wanna go with Gandalf on this one.By far his biggest mistake though was not realizing Bilbo's ring was the One Ring. But I'd argue that while Dumbledore never had such a PIS mistake he had far more.
Im not sure he didn't notice. Before it can be said for sure we will have to wait for one of the next two movies. In the scene that Bilbo is putting the ring in his pocket Gandalf gives him this "im on to you Hobbit" look. It looked like he knew what Bilbo had but didn't want to tell everyone else.