Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Gandalf didn't realize that an army of giant Eagles could have saved thousands of lives, national infrastructure, and like 2 1/2 books worth of paper. He also dropped the ball by not telling everyone that a Balrog lived in Moria and instead "let the Ringbearer decide." That's pertinent information that should have been discussed back in Rivendell.
Saruman was intentionally forcing them into moria or the gap of rohan. Either was they were screwed.
It wasnt a statement when he said "you know what they awoke in the darkness of kazad dum?" twas a question. If we go by the books all he knew was that something drove the orcs out and they called it durins bane.
Movie wise even saruman only refered to it as shadow and flame. Tho saruman appeared to have an artists rendering of the rough shape of a balrog with a couple of eyes in the middle.
Also since apperently Balin had established himself near the east gate, gandalf had every reason to think that whatever it was may not be a threat anymore.
His ultimate decision was to let the good instincts of Frodo make his decision for him. He even states his wonderment at how amazing and surprising he finds the hobbits.
Also as to the eagles thing, they came of their own free will because they wanted to help. The army of eagles was not at gandalfs beck and call. He did the king a solid once and he helps out from time to time. You really think that the eagles wanted to go anywhere near mordor? They came at a moment of need. They arent taxis.
Originally posted by omgchosYeah, no. When you yourself are more willing to risk the perilous mountain pass, and yell out "NO!" in the middle of a killer snowstorm when someone says to turn back--you know damn well that there's some seriously dangerous shit going on in that mine.
He didnt know it was there. That was saruman poking fun at him.Saruman was intentionally forcing them into moria or the gap of rohan. Either was they were screwed.
It wasnt a statement when he said "you know what they awoke in the darkness of kazad dum?" twas a question. If we go by the books all he knew was that something drove the orcs out and they called it durins bane.
Movie wise even saruman only refered to it as shadow and flame. Tho saruman appeared to have an artists rendering of the rough shape of a balrog with a couple of eyes in the middle.
Also since apperently Balin had established himself near the east gate, gandalf had every reason to think that whatever it was may not be a threat anymore.
His ultimate decision was to let the good instincts of Frodo make his decision for him. He even states his wonderment at how amazing and surprising he finds the hobbits.
Also as to the eagles thing, they came of their own free will because they wanted to help. The army of eagles was not at gandalfs beck and call. He did the king a solid once and he helps out from time to time. You really think that the eagles wanted to go anywhere near mordor? They came at a moment of need. They arent taxis.
Discussing with the group-- prior to leaving Rivendell-- that there's something so f*cking terrifying that even the ancient wizard doesn't want to go near it, is only rational. Gandalf, in all his wisdom, decided against chipping in his valued opinion, and decided against revealing pertinent information. That's not wise.
And the eagle thing is a cop out. They're willing to rescue a bunch of pissant Dwarves from some Orcs, and they're willing to rescue Gandalf from Saruman, and they're willing to fight the Nazgul over the gates of Mordor in the last-ditch effort to stop Sauron... but they're not willing to fly the One Ring to Mount Doom in order to stop Sauron? Everyone loses Wisdom points for this one-- neither Gandalf, Elrond, Bilbo, Gloin, Aragorn, or anyone else decided to pipe up and say "Hey! Do you guys want to at least ask the Eagles?"
You know... makes sense.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And the eagle thing is a cop out. They're willing to rescue a bunch of pissant Dwarves from some Orcs, and they're willing to rescue Gandalf from Saruman, and they're willing to fight the Nazgul over the gates of Mordor in the last-ditch effort to stop Sauron... but they're not willing to fly the One Ring to Mount Doom in order to stop Sauron? Everyone loses Wisdom points for this one-- neither Gandalf, Elrond, Bilbo, Gloin, Aragorn, or anyone else decided to pipe up and say "Hey! Do you guys want to at least ask the Eagles?"
The books do a great job of explaining that. They wished to remain neutral in that war but owed a debt to Gandalf and were friends with Gandalf. They were snobs.
As a Maia, Gandalf's been around for about.. 36,000 years, IRC. As an Ainu he existed before creation, so... he's timeless.
Originally posted by dadudemonI wish that was expanded on in the books too. Why were some races willing to stay neutral? It was pretty clear Sauron wanted a war of global extermination/enslavement. Why would Manwe's animals be okay with that. Or the Ents. Or f*cking Rohan. Theoden considering not riding to Gondor's aid. Once they're gone, you're next, *******.
The books do a great job of explaining that. They wished to remain neutral in that war but owed a debt to Gandalf and were friends with Gandalf. They were snobs.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yeah, no. When you yourself are more willing to risk the perilous mountain pass, and yell out "NO!" in the middle of a killer snowstorm when someone says to turn back--you know damn well that there's some seriously dangerous shit going on in that mine.Discussing with the group-- prior to leaving Rivendell-- that there's something so f*cking terrifying that even the ancient wizard doesn't want to go near it, is only rational. Gandalf, in all his wisdom, decided against chipping in his valued opinion, and decided against revealing pertinent information. That's not wise.
And the eagle thing is a cop out. They're willing to rescue a bunch of pissant Dwarves from some Orcs, and they're willing to rescue Gandalf from Saruman, and they're willing to fight the Nazgul over the gates of Mordor in the last-ditch effort to stop Sauron... but they're not willing to fly the One Ring to Mount Doom in order to stop Sauron? Everyone loses Wisdom points for this one-- neither Gandalf, Elrond, Bilbo, Gloin, Aragorn, or anyone else decided to pipe up and say "Hey! Do you guys want to at least ask the Eagles?"
You know... makes sense.
Well, nobody really knew what happened to Balin's colony in Moria. For all Gandalf knew, the dwarves may still have held a settlement. He probably didn't want to unnecessarily scare the others - Gandalf presumed he would either find dwarves or that the Fellowship would traverse Mora undetected by Goblins (which they almost did).
As for the second point, I don't think there were enough eagles to launch an aerial mission to throw the Ring into Mount Doom. The Nazgul on Fell Beasts would have been there, and not to mention tens of thousands of Orcs would have shot them down.
I just think the Eagles are a mix of inherently neutral and massive superiority complex - they only help when they see the lesser goodly races in deep sh1t.
Originally posted by Casper WhiteyLol.
Speaking of Yoda, something always bugged me about the end of ROTS.
Originally posted by -kV-It's not the point. A wise person would discuss why he doesn't want to. Gimli was propping up the idea, and Gandalf was just making a scared face and saying "No." A wise man will explain why. He won't leave the decision up to the inexperienced, ignorant, sheltered, Hobbit. It wasn't a wise decision, not by a long shot.
Well, nobody really knew what happened to Balin's colony in Moria. For all Gandalf knew, the dwarves may still have held a settlement. He probably didn't want to unnecessarily scare the others - Gandalf presumed he would either find dwarves or that the Fellowship would traverse Mora undetected by Goblins (which they almost did).As for the second point, I don't think there were enough eagles to launch an aerial mission to throw the Ring into Mount Doom. The Nazgul on Fell Beasts would have been there, and not to mention tens of thousands of Orcs would have shot them down.
I just think the Eagles are a mix of inherently neutral and massive superiority complex - they only help when they see the lesser goodly races in deep sh1t.
And you don't need an aerial assault to destroy the Ring, you just need a small group to sneak in--say... 9. Gather every Eagle, fly above arrow-height. They're clearly capable and willing to take on the Winged Beasts. And when the fate of the entire world hangs in the balance, you don't sit on the sidelines waiting for the last minute.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It's not the point. A wise person would discuss why he doesn't want to. Gimli was propping up the idea, and Gandalf was just making a scared face and saying "No." A wise man will explain why. He won't leave the decision up to the inexperienced, ignorant, sheltered, Hobbit. It wasn't a wise decision, not by a long shot.And you don't need an aerial assault to destroy the Ring, you just need a small group to sneak in--say... 9. Gather every Eagle, fly above arrow-height. They're clearly capable and willing to take on the Winged Beasts. And when the fate of the entire world hangs in the balance, you don't sit on the sidelines waiting for the last minute.
Exactly, Gandalf made it very evident that he was hesitant to risk going into the Mines. He didn't need to say, "Well...an 18 foot fire demon from the ancient world exists somewhere deep inside there". What's the point of saying that, when he knew there was a possibility of friendly dwarves or a possibility of sneaking through Moria without attracting any attention. He conveyed to the Fellowship that Moria was treacherous, and he feared going into the Mines, and that was sufficient.
And Gandalf is the fatalistic type. According to him, Frodo was meant to have the Ring, and since he (Gandalf) was undecided, he believed it was the Ring-Bearer's right to choose. And Frodo chose Moria. Ultimately, Durin's Bane was defeated, Gandalf was resurrected into a more powerful form, the Fellowship started to break (a blessing in disguise)...so the decision paid off lol.
The Eagles wouldn't have entered undetected. Sauron would have felt/seen them coming well in advance and would have prepared a defense. And even then, one Eagle would have needed to descend to be over Mount Doom to drop the ring. It would have been in arrow range. Basically, there was never any way the Eagles could have just done the mission solo from the get-go. And as for the Eagles' nature, that's what they are man...they like to be deus ex machinas. Shrug.
Fatalism and vague warnings =/= wisdom. It equals tight-lipped optimism. Saying "it all worked out in the end" (thankfully) doesn't excuse Gandalf from not speaking up in the first place. There was no practical need to withhold information.
And the Eagles can be detected and sensed by Sauron, but a Hobbit carrying the One Ring escapes his gaze--even when his gaze falls directly on that hobbit at one point? And no... there was no arrow range the Eagles needed to be in. That mountain is gigantic. Unless there's anti-grav Orcs flying above the top, the Eagles are safe. And again, it's not that the Eagles weren't used, it was that they weren't asked. They weren't even asked to fly them over the mountains--the place Gandalf was afraid of.
Originally posted by Casper Whitey
Seriously, why did Yoda split from Obi Wan and Face Sidious alone? He and Obi were both right there on the same planet as Sidious, yet Yoda thought it better to face Sidious alone and send Obi Wan across the galaxy to face Vader.Dumb move.
Yoda was being arrogant and petty. He had to learn a hard lesson and he pretty much admits his decision and efforts were a failure. For me, it was just showing, metaphorically, that the Jedi really were too arrogant and assumed too much power. Sidious and co were right about the Jedi. 😐
So, yes, I see Yoda as the lowest, by far, in this thread. Yoda is no better than a Yogi, if we are to be honest. Sure, Yogi's are smart but not transcendentally wise like Gandalf.