DE Sidious -vs- The Emperor (Lord Vitiate)

All are statements from in-universe characters. Two of them don't even refer to Sidious force abilities (alone). And that brings the number of reliable sources proclaiming Sidious is the most powerful (in terms of Force powers) to precisely "zero". And that is already ignoring the fact that all three sources were written, before the invention of Vitiate, making them pretty useless for this very discussion, regardless whether you want to interprete them in favor for Sidious or not.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
haermm

I'm beginning to wonder what horrific crime the English language perpetrated against the three of you that would inspire you to so willfully abuse it.

Yoda referred to Palpatine as "emperor" during their infiltration of the clone-occupied Jedi Temple; he addresses Palpatine himself as such at the beginning of their confrontation beneath the Rotunda; Yoda was painfully aware of the fact that he was on his lonesome and Sidious had an Empire at his disposal before the fight began.

The fact that he elected to initiate and continue the brawl with these two facts in mind undermines the idea that they were the reason he fled. Perhaps they were the reason he never made a second attempt; that would be reasonable.

The reason he fled is because he was unarmed. He didn't drop his lightsaber out of awe of the Emperor's ability to recite bureaucratic procedure.

Pretty defensive on this point arn't we?

Of course Yoda already knew Sidious had an Empire before the fight.

The fact that he chose to still "initiate and continue" the attack on Sidious despite knowing that doesn't mean that wasn't at all an issue.

Yoda knew he'd have only a small window of time in which to attack him.

And why would he flee due to being unarmed? When Sidious was also seemingly unarmed and Yoda came close to destroying Sidious in their force contest.

No, he fled because his small window of opportunity had lasted long enough. The very next scene with Sidious we see Troopers are already with him.

Hmm good point DP.

And why would he flee due to being unarmed? When Sidious was also seemingly unarmed and Yoda came close to destroying Sidious in their force contest.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Pretty defensive on this point arn't we?

Of course Yoda already knew Sidious had an Empire before the fight.

The fact that he chose to still "initiate and continue" the attack on Sidious despite knowing that doesn't mean that wasn't at all an issue.

Yoda knew he'd have only a small window of time in which to attack him.

And why would he flee due to being unarmed? When Sidious was also seemingly unarmed and Yoda came close to destroying Sidious in their force contest.

No, he fled because his small window of opportunity had lasted long enough. The very next scene with Sidious we see Troopers are already with him.

And having trouble with the great and wise; humble and powerful Master Yoda is not playing down his suppossedly "wanked" abilities in the slightest. Yes, we know he could dispatch Jedi Masters in seconds by catching them off guard, similiarly we know he can surprise and easily best the likes of Darth Maul both from his personal journal and from the Clone Wars Series. We also know that he can surprise Luke Skywalker, but perhaps not overpower him a second time (definately not the third time). But it is still impressive that someone like Yoda couldn't find a way in the time he had to finish evil once and for all.

Vitiate was tough against Revan AND Surik, the stars of KOTOR I and II, but these two individuals were not on Yoda's level.

Nor quite on Windu's level - he had cults and followers but that does not mean anything, inherent Sith Kings conquered worlds back before the first Dark Jedi created the Sith Order. Yes, Revan was surely on par with the Jedi Masters, and had extensive experience and master of many Force powers, with exposure to light and dark, comparable to Luke and Galen Marek. However, Revan simply wasn't with it in combat like Mace Windu, who not only had a stronger sense of shatterpoints than both Satele Shan and Luke Skywalker as he demonstrated, but also mastered an impossibly difficult and corrupting variant of lightsaber combat and could wield a lightsaber hundreds of times faster than a normal Jedi.

Yoda was old, small, and meak - which was why he didn't destroy Dooku as quickly as Anakin despite being a little more powerful AND having astronomically greater mastery and knowledge of the Force and powers associated. Yet Dooku wouldn't have been capable of even scratching the surface of Yoda's defense and vitality within the Force, not even Windu could do that. But Yoda with all of his great power simply could not find a way to beat Sidious. Who wasn't all the powerful in straight lightsaber combat, he was quicker and deadlier when catching his opponents off guard, but he wasn't powerful in straight might and stand-up confrontation. Which is how I'd imagine Yoda disarmed him.

But when you look at his Disparity by Dark Empire, it supremely dwarfs any non-nexus Sith Lords, and is the greatest of the three known nexus Sith Lords, only surpassed by the likes of Son and Abeloth.

In a straight battle within his first elderly clone by Dark Empire with Vitiate in his armor with his original Sith heredity in the SWTOR MMO, the battle would be more like it was with Yoda. Imagine when Leia assaulted him in DE and he shrugged off thousands of pounds of steel dropping on him and atomized her lightsaber with a hand gesture. That's the Force nexus he gained from Byss, which may have been dumbed down some by DE II and definatly by Empire's End. Think of him creating things beyond the scope of the mere shadow clones of Vitiate (Force storms), that shows a greater mastery of the powers of the Dark than even Vitiate and Nihilus. Yet at the same time Sidious demonstrated master of what Vitiate and Nihilus demonstrated, Sever Force (on the whole Jedi order), Force drain (on Byss), Mind Domination (Coruscant to hide his Star Destroyer).

Sid DESTROYS Vit,

Firstly, The Creater of Star Wars GL created Sidious as the Ultimate Sith Lord of the Universe. And he was Canons MOST Powerful being. Some pathetic author Created Vit as an addition to the Star Wars universe.

No obviously we see Sidious in action in the films and of course the same cannot be said about Vit. So you cannot actually compare them Visually in combat. Besides a Normal actor/Stuntman can only do his best. Im sure if Vit were to be filmed, he wouldn't be nearly as impressive as he was in books/Comics.

Now what we do know is that Sidious was at least equal to Yoda in lightsaber combat. And Far superior in the Force. He could see Years into the future possibilities. this allowed him to be the most Cunning Person in the Galaxy.

Vit may have became immortal, but lets face it, He needed it. And he died in the end anyway....So not THAT immortal it seems. But Hey Sidious dies aswell.

But when they were both alive Sidious proved his mastery more, He enslaved BILLIONS of people on Byss to feed him force. He could render up Force Storms which could not only Destory Entire fleets by transport him anywhere in the Universe at lightspeed.

Sidious knew all 7 forms of lightsaber combat and was a master of them all. He even created his own styles. In the books he moved faster than light in ROTS and killed Kota. Can Vit do that....NOPE.

Vit Killed his father when he was six? How does that make him more powerful than Sidious? Perhaps more powerful than Him at that age but in the long shot NO WAY.

FACE it Vit is PATHETIC compared to Sidious.

Sidious was all-together the deepest Master of the Dark Side outside of Abeloth and Son, yet he at one point achieved a greater power than either, in the beginning of DE, by feeding off of the inhabitants of Byss to sustain him.

With that power, as with Vitiate after his ritual, and Nihilus after consumed the Mariluka species and hundreds of Jedi - his Dark Nexus put him at his peak, ready to defeat Vitiate at any point in time, even directly after his ritual.

Although if Sidious had taken Anakin Solo's body his end goal was not much different from Vitiate's ultimatum to consume the galaxy and recreate it in his image by either creating or protecting a few subjects to rule his Empire, and Nihilus' ultimatum to just go throughout the galaxy eating the Force until there was nothing left to rule but a Void.

In fact, Palpatine's end goal was greater and would make him strongest;

Originally posted by Dark Empire Sourcebook
As his plan proceeded, he became convinced that there was nothing between him and the eternal rule of Darkness. Even Ulic Qel-Droma would be envious of Palpatine. He had suceeded where all others had failed in taming the Dark Side. He would journey across the universe spreading the shadow of his rule, {I'd say he'd no doubt repeat Byss endlessly to sustain him, yet he could redo one world again and again by giving his subjects time to repopulate as he found other worlds to drain, and so he could come back and drain it of replenished life and Force energies once more.} blotting out the stars and taking his rule to other helpless galaxies {uh-oh, that's more than one galaxy drained over time.}

The problem is that Force drain makes a Sith stronger for an indefinate amount of time, they retain a little increased power but that is just them becoming a larger Nexus. The actual energies are lost and they begin to age again. Although, after an entire galaxy is drained at once Vitiate could live millions of years before he lost that, and Nihilus would consume entire systems, and then the entire galaxy at once, and more, forcing them to go elsewhere eventually. They all would have ultimately ended up in the same place, but that is not the question here. Sidious was just better. Darth Bane<Darth Zannah<...<Darth Millenial<Darth Tenebrous<Darth Plagueis<Darth Sidious.

Originally posted by NethanM
Sid DESTROYS Vit,

Firstly, The Creater of Star Wars GL created Sidious as the Ultimate Sith Lord of the Universe. And he was Canons MOST Powerful being. Some pathetic author Created Vit as an addition to the Star Wars universe.

No obviously we see Sidious in action in the films and of course the same cannot be said about Vit. So you cannot actually compare them Visually in combat. Besides a Normal actor/Stuntman can only do his best. Im sure if Vit were to be filmed, he wouldn't be nearly as impressive as he was in books/Comics.

Now what we do know is that Sidious was at least equal to Yoda in lightsaber combat. And Far superior in the Force. He could see Years into the future possibilities. this allowed him to be the most Cunning Person in the Galaxy.

Vit may have became immortal, but lets face it, He needed it. And he died in the end anyway....So not THAT immortal it seems. But Hey Sidious dies aswell.

But when they were both alive Sidious proved his mastery more, He enslaved BILLIONS of people on Byss to feed him force. He could render up Force Storms which could not only Destory Entire fleets by transport him anywhere in the Universe at lightspeed.

Sidious knew all 7 forms of lightsaber combat and was a master of them all. He even created his own styles. In the books he moved faster than light in ROTS and killed Kota. Can Vit do that....NOPE.

Vit Killed his father when he was six? How does that make him more powerful than Sidious? Perhaps more powerful than Him at that age but in the long shot NO WAY.

FACE it Vit is PATHETIC compared to Sidious.

Originally posted by Dolos
Sidious was all-together the deepest Master of the Dark Side outside of Abeloth and Son, yet he at one point achieved a greater power than either, in the beginning of DE, by feeding off of the inhabitants of Byss to sustain him.

With that power, as with Vitiate after his ritual, and Nihilus after consumed the Mariluka species and hundreds of Jedi - his Dark Nexus put him at his peak, ready to defeat Vitiate at any point in time, even directly after his ritual.

Although if Sidious had taken Anakin Solo's body his end goal was not much different from Vitiate's ultimatum to consume the galaxy and recreate it in his image by either creating or protecting a few subjects to rule his Empire, and Nihilus' ultimatum to just go throughout the galaxy eating the Force until there was nothing left to rule but a Void.

In fact, Palpatine's end goal was greater and would make him strongest;

[quote=Dark Empire Sourcebook]As his plan proceeded, he became convinced that there was nothing between him and the eternal rule of Darkness. Even Ulic Qel-Droma would be envious of Palpatine. He had suceeded where all others had failed in taming the Dark Side. He would journey across the universe spreading the shadow of his rule, {I'd say he'd no doubt repeat Byss endlessly to sustain him, yet he could redo one world again and again by giving his subjects time to repopulate as he found other worlds to drain, and so he could come back and drain it of replenished life and Force energies once more.} blotting out the stars and [b]taking his rule to other helpless galaxies {uh-oh, that's more than one galaxy drained over time.}

I'm not sure where you're getting ANY of your information. And who cares about goals? Not that it matters, seeing as how Vitiate was on his way to destroy the galaxy through a ritual.

Originally posted by jadams3928

I'm not sure where you're getting ANY of your information. And who cares about goals? Not that it matters, seeing as how Vitiate was on his way to destroy the galaxy through a ritual.

Dark Empire Sourcebook.

And lol Sidious was not approaching the cosmic speed limit like DC and Marvel superheroes, come on now.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Pretty defensive on this point arn't we?

I don't know, are we? Your many debates with Rookwood, SIDIOUS_66, and others do suggest an easily-aroused temper and juvenile tendencies, but I wasn't going to say anything.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course Yoda already knew Sidious had an Empire before the fight.

The fact that he chose to still "initiate and continue" the attack on Sidious despite knowing that doesn't mean that wasn't at all an issue.

No, it means that it wasn't the issue that prompted his retreat.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yoda knew he'd have only a small window of time in which to attack him.

Well that explains why he didn't waste his time with banter and taunts.
Wait—!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And why would he flee due to being unarmed?

Jedi tend to be a little more constrained in terms of weaponizing the Force compared to the Sith, bro.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
When Sidious was also seemingly unarmed and Yoda came close to destroying Sidious in their force contest.

lol
If by "destroy," you mean knock Sidious off the pod and reduce him to laughter moments later, then yes.

If by "destroy," you mean destroy, then no. Sidious and Yoda both tanked the coiled blast rather handily.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No, he fled because his small window of opportunity had lasted long enough.

Did this small window of opportunity close because of Sidious's "command of Republic legislative procedure and rhetorical prowess"? Did they stop to enter some sort of convoluted political debate and Yoda's schedule was just too full for a comprehensive rebuttal?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The very next scene with Sidious we see Troopers are already with him.

What's your point?
The very next scene with Sidious after that, he's entering Mustafar's orbit. Are we to infer from that that it was a 5-minute jaunt through the stars?

Face it, you came, you trolled, you lost. Make sure your next response includes either (1) a coherent, sensible explanation as to how Sidious's political savvy and mastery of Republic political procedure was the precise reason for Yoda's retreat or (2) a respectful concession and (preferably along with it) solemn vow to never again speak to me directly.

Anything other than one of these two will be interpreted as an open admission of your intellectual inferiority compared to myself as well as a thorough confession of your complete and utter worthlessness as a human being, concluding with public acknowledgment of my unparalleled inherent sexiness.

Do not fail me.

Originally posted by Dolos
Dark Empire Sourcebook.

And lol Sidious was not approaching the cosmic speed limit like DC and Marvel superheroes, come on now.

You mean the OUTDATED DE Sourcebook? And that wasn't my question. I was wondering where you were getting your logic.

Originally posted by jadams3928
You mean the OUTDATED DE Sourcebook?

I sense the phantom menace of a certain German at work. You should know better, my Texan son.

Originally posted by jadams3928
I was wondering where you were getting your logic.

Sidious' knowledge and abilities in the dark side are more advanced than Vitiate's based on what he's displayed.

I wasn't discounting it as a source, but it doesn't help your argument if your ONLY source is the DE Sourcebook.

Originally posted by Dolos
Sidious' knowledge and abilities in the dark side are more advanced than Vitiate's based on what he's displayed.

Not really

Examining the sources we have on him, Vitiate is alleged to have been a child prodigy with unnaturally advanced powers and a reputable scholar. He drained 8,000 Sith Lords and an entire world in an elaborate ritual, affording him functional immortality and an opportunity to experiment and research the Force for ~1,400 years.

My genuine question posed to no one in particular is, why is he not lightyears ahead of everyone?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Examining the sources we have on him, Vitiate is alleged to have been a child prodigy with unnaturally advanced powers and a reputable scholar. He drained 8,000 Sith Lords and an entire world in an elaborate ritual, affording him functional immortality and an opportunity to experiment and research the Force for ~1,400 years.

My genuine question posed to no one in particular is, why is he not lightyears ahead of everyone?

As I said ealier Vitiate predates Sidious and has access to a tiny arcane library when compared what Sidious has when Plagueis takes him under his wing. Furthermore, Plagueis is aware of Vitiate, and Bane, and all the knowledge the former rediscovered about the Ancient Sith from Revan's holocron along with new material. Plagueis mentions Vitiate was closest to becoming immortal, and the DE Sourcebook mentions Sidious was more successful specifically in the ways of the dark side than anyone before him, even the new Sith who come into the EU until otherwise stated. Furthermore, Palpatine has DEMONSTRATED mind domination, sever Force, and Force drain...as well as the Force storms that can rip apart the surfaces of planets, a power which no Sith has ever demonstrated the arcane knowledge neccessary to wield.

Name a dark side power of alchemy or sorcerery and Sidious probably knows it...

However, Vitiate's connection the dark side was stronger than Sidious' because the scope of his ritual, and he had better feats as a child because Sidious hadn't even begun training - and Vitiate was already using Force drain to unnaturally increase his Force sensitivity. The ritual on Nathema was more extreme than what Sidious did to Byss, which is why I already voted for Vitiate in a straight up battle like the OP. but retain that if Sidious wanted to, he could do the same thing and become just as powerful, and win because he is more knowledgable in the dark side, this is stated over and over and over again.

But guess who has a more extreme Nexus than Vitiate? Nihilus' completely UNAIDED consumption of Katarr was a far greater feat and proved that Nihilus had an even stronger unnatural connection than Vitiate.

But yes, I reiterate what I was saying earlier - and retain my earlier summation at the beginning of this topic. Sidious is a smaller Nexus, but he has greater knowledge of the dark side, and access to more powers and abilities.

Actually, Sidious is the only one of the three (Nihilus, Sidious & Vitiate) to be referred to canonically as a living dark side nexus.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Actually, Sidious is the only one of the three (Nihilus, Sidious & Vitiate) to be referred to canonically as a living dark side nexus.

I believe so.

It's implication is still relevant. Tor's game mechanics call it 'dark side corruption'.

Force Potential =/= Knowledge of the Force =/= Connection to the Force.

Natural Force sensitivity can be increased through training by strengthening ones connection. With the dark side it is increased faster using rage, fear, pain, but all pale in comparison to using the life force of others; Force drain.