I did.
Furthermore, the Sith Empire has mini-Star Forges in the form of the Sun-Razers. ;o)
And a number of super-weapons that they produced. Plus regenerating cybernetics and other technological marvels.
I did.
Furthermore, the Sith Empire has mini-Star Forges in the form of the Sun-Razers. ;o)
And a number of super-weapons that they produced. Plus regenerating cybernetics and other technological marvels.
The New Sith Empire not just have planet busting (mobile) superweapons but also many competent Sith Lords under its arsenal.
After the incident with the Sith Emperor (Vitiate), the New Sith Empire internally fractured, and this gave Republic the advantage it needed in the war. Otherwise, Republic would have never won.
Keeping in mind that an 'insignificant rebellion' was able to defeat The Galactic Republic, it should not be regarded as unstoppable and invincible force. Yes, Thrawn did not participated in the Battle of Endor but the New Sith Empire have some brilliant tacticans of its own as well.
Technological gap isn't big between these two Empires. And large number of Sith Lords serving the New Sith Empire can actually turn the tide of this hypothetical conflict in its favor.
Therefore, The New Sith Empire can win.
An, "insignificant force" that just so happened to be spearheaded by one of the most powerful force users to ever live (ableit severely undertrained) who then redeemed THE most powerful Force user to ever live and killed the man holding the ambitious assholes behind it all together and keeping them from infighting, yes. If Luke hadn't redeemed Vader, the Rebels would have been destroyed. They never really had any chance whatsoever until Luke, specifically Luke, joined them.
Originally posted by NephthysOh what the teats? Can nothing in TOR be original?
I did.Furthermore, the Sith Empire has mini-Star Forges in the form of the Sun-Razers. ;o)
And a number of super-weapons that they produced. Plus regenerating cybernetics and other technological marvels.
Originally posted by PwnedVader? Neither Vader nor Anakin were ever close to being the most powerful. Potential means jack if it's not realized, and Vadakin never realized it.
who then redeemed THE most powerful Force user to ever live
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Malgus kept an extensive war journal in The Book of Sith that has been perused personally by the Emperor. I doubt it is the only one in existence.
True, that'd be a good source of intel.
The lack of information about that conflict owes more to its recent out-of-universe creation than it does to any in-universe informational crisis. If you consult any of the sourcebooks and compendiums pre-2005, you'll find details about the prequels fairly sketchy, with phrases like "records of these events were lost, but what is known is... blah blah."Post-2005? It's radically different. I see no reason to believe that such a tremendous conflict would be largely unknown to the Galactic Empire.
There's in-universe fuzziness too. Like the Sith Lord Riven, who tried to name himself after Revan (and was invented post-Revan I believe).
Originally posted by Nephthys
The GE does not have the technological advantage some think they do. Simply because there was thousands of years between them does not mean the technology grew considering how stagnant the tech level of SW is. They still use durasteel to make starships, they still use blasters etc etc.If we check out the SWTOR Encyclopedia to compare an Imperial Star Destroyer with a Harrower-Class Dreadnought:
Length
Harrower: 800 metres
Star Destroyer: 1600 metresOverall the Star Destroyer is superior to the Harrower, but not by a considerable amount, a Harrower could still take on a Star Destroyer and win. Not even taking into account that all the player characters in TOR are ace pilot members of the Empires Fury who solo hundreds of fighters and multiple capitol ships every mission.
That length different is a *huge* thing. Especially with the Harrower putting more of it's space into hangers.
It means that the ISD is bigger, tougher, more guns, and has more power to put into guns and shields (since bigger size = bigger engines).
A Imperial Star Destroyer will overwhelm a Harrower in a gun fight 10 times out of 10, and should even be able to manage being outnumbered well (2-on-1, the ISD retains it's mass edge). Even a Victory Star Destroyer has the solid advantage one on one.
Not to mention, did the Sith Empire have any Dreadnaught-class ships like the Executors? Those are fleet killers themselves (even in their own era, let alone against a fleet of effectively lighter, more carrier-focused Vicstars!), and the Galactic Empire had quite a few of them.
As for aces... well, you do have the likes of Mareek Stele and Soontir Fel, who pull off that kind of thing too. The GE has it's super-aces as well, and in superior fighters.
The GE's fleet strength is further diminished by the Dread Masters, who can single-handedly destroy entire fleets as they did with the Republic.
Yes, it's really the force users who're key here.
Q99
There's in-universe fuzziness too. Like the Sith Lord Riven, who tried to name himself after Revan (and was invented post-Revan I believe).
Obviously there are voids in recorded history, but you can't exactly compare a no-name Sith Lord with the renewed Sith Empire. They sacked Coruscant, destroyed the Jedi Temple, and controlled half the galaxy. That's not something that is realistically going to be excised from the history books.
Of course it's a moot point because Neph acceded to my request.
Nevertheless, the military advantage remains firmly with the Empire. They're bigger, stronger, and more advanced. The number of troops they could hurl at ground battles is ridiculous, but more important is their naval advantage. They can afford to lose ground battles as long as a Base Delta Zero is on the table.
The Sith's best bet is to target the Emperor and incite in-fighting among the Empire. In a sheer slugfest, they're doomed.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I did.Furthermore, the Sith Empire has mini-Star Forges in the form of the Sun-Razers. ;o)
And a number of super-weapons that they produced. Plus regenerating cybernetics and other technological marvels.
Rather, they completed one, which was destroyed.
And most of the superweapons aren't exactly game changers. 'Super warships' and all that.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Of course it's a moot point because Neph acceded to my request.Nevertheless, the military advantage remains firmly with the Empire. They're bigger, stronger, and more advanced. The number of troops they could hurl at ground battles is ridiculous, but more important is their naval advantage. They can afford to lose ground battles as long as a Base Delta Zero is on the table.
The Sith's best bet is to target the Emperor and incite in-fighting among the Empire. In a sheer slugfest, they're doomed.
I agree that the military advantage remains with the Empire and think you're overestimating the Empires power. The Empire may have more troops, but the Empire has access to Sith, who are easily superior to the Empires ground forces. Sure there might be some crap ones due to the Empires policy to just send every Force-sensitive to Korriban regardless of strength, but considering what they have to go through to get off Korriban, I doubt theres many. The Empire also has the Mandalorians, regenerating cyborgs etc. And imo I don't think the Empire has that much of an advantage in naval battles considering the Empire has multiple fleet-killers at there disposal and the ability to manufacture more.
In short, the Empire wins.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The Empire may have more troops, but the Empire has access to Sith, who are easily superior to the Empires ground forces.
According to whom? Jace Malcom, for whom I cannot find a single shred of evidence of extraordinary skill, ragdolls Sith forces on Alderaan before giving Malgus himself hell. The rank-and-file Sith may very well be superior to the common stormtrooper, sure. On the other hand, that's hardly the totality of Imperial ground troops. You have everything from the Dark Trooper to the Shadow Guard to all the shiz Vader and the Empire threw at Starkiller, who's arguably more powerful than any of Vitiate's Sith (including Vitiate himself).
To say nothing of the fact that ground battles are ultimately meaningless when the Empire can simply conduct a Base Delta Zero operation from orbit and slag the surface. Unlike the Old Republic, Palpatine is more than willing to raze his own citizens, troops, and worlds to ensure victory.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Sure there might be some crap ones due to the Empires policy to just send every Force-sensitive to Korriban regardless of strength, but considering what they have to go through to get off Korriban, I doubt theres many.
Quite possibly, but by virtue of superior number, technology, and variety, the Empire definitely has a shot on the ground. That's not even touching the numerous support craft and space & aerial support.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The Empire also has the Mandalorians, regenerating cyborgs etc.
I'm seeing nothing that would guarantee the Sith a victory in the war. On the ground, perhaps. I'm willing to concede that possibility. But ultimately, they are still hopelessly outclassed militarily.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And imo I don't think the Empire has that much of an advantage in naval battles considering the Empire has multiple fleet-killers at there disposal and the ability to manufacture more.
The Sith are outnumbered and outgunned ship-to-ship. The ImpStar outclasses the Harrower utterly, as Q99 explained. The Sith's superweapons might dent Imperial forces, but (as I recall) they aren't like the Death Star and practically invulnerable to conventional attack-- they can be destroyed through sheer superior firepower. The Ascendant Spear is a retrofitted Harrower, right?
As I said, the Emperor is literally their worst enemy: he'll go to the same ludicrous methods the Sith will, except he can foot the bill better than they can by virtue of resources.
Originally posted by Nephthys
In short, the Empire wins.
Indeed they do.
I'm not sure how this fight could be more comparable. Perhaps limiting it to the so-called "Dark Empire"?
The Sith definitely have a shot if they apply asymmetrical warfare and avoid slugfests with the Empire. Their best shot, IMHO, is to target Palpatine and bring as much force to bear against him. In a protracted war, they're fvcked.
That's the point of contention with me: how do you really call this? If Vitiate has his Sith and the Mandos carry out strategic hit & run raids, perhaps culminating in a focused effort against the Emperor to take him and throw his forces into chaos, they could take it all.
If Palps can locate Vitiate and send a concentration of his forces against him or over time against any collections of Sith and then against Vitiate then the Empire survives.
Realistically, it would likely end up with factions on both sides trying to exploit weaknesses where they see them in order to seize power themselves and both sides collapse into chaos.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Just like the Death Star was destroyed? The Empires get things like that even if destroyed.
The designer was unfortunately on the only completed Sun Razer.
The individual weapons can be made without the Razer, but take so much time and effort they're hardly worth it.
They're capable of defeating entire fleets. Nothing to sneeze at.
Entire fleets at their time. Some of 'em are just exceptionally big, fast ships, perhaps with a slow-firing big beam gun. I.e. nothing that can't be taken down by being willing to expend some ships and jumping 'em at once. Not even necessarily requiring a particularly large fleet of GE ships (as an exceptionally large supership... may be the size of a base ISD).
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Indeed they do.I'm not sure how this fight could be more comparable. Perhaps limiting it to the so-called "Dark Empire"?
The Sith definitely have a shot if they apply asymmetrical warfare and avoid slugfests with the Empire. Their best shot, IMHO, is to target Palpatine and bring as much force to bear against him. In a protracted war, they're fvcked.
Hm, the Dark Empire's forces were... interesting. While they didn't have as much resources as the GE as it's height, they had a much higher proportion of big ships than normal (drawing on as it did the forces of so many warlords, all of whom wanted to show off with big flagships), which'd make the psychological aspect of battling them worse.
And consider the World Devastators- as they continually grow and build up their power, there'd really be very, very little capable of stopping them from just going on building/destroying sprees across swaths of spacr. The Sith Empire'd need to send it's super weapons to take those out ASAP, which'd take out a lot of those super weapons in the process or at the least leave them exposed.
When it comes to force users, there's no Vader to worry about, just the 'Dark Side Elite,' though you may or may not count Darkside Luke as an asset of theirs.