The Galactic Empire vs The New Sith Empire

Originally posted by Q99
Hm, the Dark Empire's forces were... interesting. While they didn't have as much resources as the GE as it's height, they had a much higher proportion of big ships than normal (drawing on as it did the forces of so many warlords, all of whom wanted to show off with big flagships),

True, but then the Emperor had been withdrawing resources to Byss for years.

Originally posted by Q99
which'd make the psychological aspect of battling them worse.

Psychological elements are fairly nebulous and even more difficult to argue, in my opinion.

Originally posted by Q99
And consider the World Devastators- as they continually grow and build up their power, there'd really be very, very little capable of stopping them from just going on building/destroying sprees across swaths of spacr. The Sith Empire'd need to send it's super weapons to take those out ASAP, which'd take out a lot of those super weapons in the process or at the least leave them exposed.

True, but perhaps the Sith slicers could hack the Master Control Signal and take them down?

Originally posted by Q99
When it comes to force users, there's no Vader to worry about, just the 'Dark Side Elite,' though you may or may not count Darkside Luke as an asset of theirs.

The Sith have a definite advantage in terms of the Force, through sheer numbers alone.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
According to whom? Jace Malcom, for whom I cannot find a single shred of evidence of extraordinary skill, ragdolls Sith forces on Alderaan before giving Malgus himself hell.

Malcom was the commander of Havoc Squad, the absolute Elite in the Republic military. Its the same position the Trooper class receives in TOR. There are plenty of examples of surpassingly talented non-force-sensitives defeating Jedi and Sith, even powerful ones.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The rank-and-file Sith may very well be superior to the common stormtrooper, sure.

Seriously?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
On the other hand, that's hardly the totality of Imperial ground troops. You have everything from the Dark Trooper to the Shadow Guard to all the shiz Vader and the Empire threw at Starkiller, who's arguably more powerful than any of Vitiate's Sith (including Vitiate himself).

Starkillers power is irrevelent. And as I've said, the Sith are hardly the totality of the SEs ground troops.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
To say nothing of the fact that ground battles are ultimately meaningless when the Empire can simply conduct a Base Delta Zero operation from orbit and slag the surface. Unlike the Old Republic, Palpatine is more than willing to raze his own citizens, troops, and worlds to ensure victory.

Quite funny considering Vitiate was willing to consume the entire galaxy for his own ends.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Quite possibly, but by virtue of superior number, technology, and variety, the Empire definitely has a shot on the ground. That's not even touching the numerous support craft and space & aerial support.

I doubt it. The technology is hardly useful compared to the Force and considering that their troops are outfitted with armor that yields to sticks and stones. And the SE also has support craft and aerial support as you see and fight in the game (droids, walkers, tanks, gunships etc).

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm seeing nothing that would guarantee the Sith a victory in the war. On the ground, perhaps. I'm willing to concede that possibility. But ultimately, they are still hopelessly outclassed militarily.

Other than the best troops in the galaxy coupled with an army of Force users and unkillable cyborgs?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Sith are outnumbered and outgunned ship-to-ship. The ImpStar outclasses the Harrower utterly, as Q99 explained. The Sith's superweapons might dent Imperial forces, but (as I recall) they aren't like the Death Star and practically invulnerable to conventional attack-- they can be destroyed through sheer superior firepower. The Ascendant Spear is a retrofitted Harrower, right?

Q99's argument is that bigger = better. This is not necessarily the case at all, and is merely an assumption.

Considering the Ascendant Spear is twice the size of a Harrower, no, not really. Its outfitted with a megalaser capable of one-shotting capital ships.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
As I said, the Emperor is literally their worst enemy: he'll go to the same ludicrous methods the Sith will, except he can foot the bill better than they can by virtue of resources.

Considering the SE can strip-mine stars, I think they're fine on resources. They also hold Balmorra, the best factory-world in the galaxy.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Indeed they do.

I'm not sure how this fight could be more comparable. Perhaps limiting it to the so-called "Dark Empire"?

The Sith definitely have a shot if they apply asymmetrical warfare and avoid slugfests with the Empire. Their best shot, IMHO, is to target Palpatine and bring as much force to bear against him. In a protracted war, they're fvcked.

Thats also a possibility. What chances do you think they have? Maybe if they hit him with the Desolator. It was a failure in the game because Angral was a tard and attacked Tython solo, but maybe backed by the SE's navy and the Dread Masters it would stand a chance.

Speaking of assassinations, the Empire also gains assess to a legion of HK-51 droids during the course of the game. Considering that HK-47 asserts that they can win the war for whomever holds them within a few years they shouldn't be underestimated.

Does Palpatine get his force storms?

I'm leaning towards no considering that he developed the power after the collapse of the Galactic Empire.

Yes or no.

No leaning.

No.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Psychological elements are fairly nebulous and even more difficult to argue, in my opinion.

Yes, but I'm not exactly talking subtle stuff here. I'm talking in a lot of battles there'll be "Oh crap there's giant ships that blow up half our fleet every time they show up!".

Very shock & awe situation where most captain's panic.

Every battle they manage to win, will involve massive casualties. Every battle where they lose, they'll get massive casualties *and* not even necessarily any ship kills to show for it.

Tactics that rely on heavy number can win the day and the situation can turn around when you actually start managing to drop them, but especially in early days of a war it can be expected to increase results.

True, but perhaps the Sith slicers could hack the Master Control Signal and take them down?

Difficult. Programming is definitely one of the areas where we have an indication of advancement- Protocol droids advanced from hundreds of languages to millions during the intervening millennia.

Meaning their slicing tools will be underpowered. Though from what I gather, the base programming core is still more-or-less on similar structures, just more-so over time, so they can learn the new stuff.

The Sith have a definite advantage in terms of the Force, through sheer numbers alone.

Oh yes. The One Sith are pretty much the only other Sith that could take them on in the numbers front.

Neph
Q99's argument is that bigger = better. This is not necessarily the case at all, and is merely an assumption.

It holds true with ships from the same era in the wide majority of circumstances, let alone when the bigger ships are newer and more advanced as well.

If anything, merely going by size alone should understate the GE forces, as tech *has* improved, if not in a revolutionary way.

Heck, it's even visible during the life span of the GE- ISD2s noticeably surpass ISD1s at the same mass, and some clone war designs are considered underpowered for their size.

Speaking of assassinations, the Empire also gains assess to a legion of HK-51 droids during the course of the game. Considering that HK-47 asserts that they can win the war for whomever holds them within a few years they shouldn't be underestimated.

I'll note that back in KotoR/TOR era, the HK series resembled common protocol droids, allowing them to work in disguise.

In the GE era, they are the *only* droids who look like they do, obvious assassin droids, and they're very underpowered in the language department to try and sell themselves as new protocol droids.

It would probably come down to Malgus vs. Vader and Vitiate vs. Sidious. Vader would beat Malgus, Vitiate would beat Sidious, Vitiate would beat Vader. So... Sith Empire FTW!

Bump.

Vitiates Empire has 'millions of powerful sith'. So they win.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bump.

Vitiates Empire has 'millions of powerful sith'. So they win.

No, they don't.

The Galactic Empire possesses the largest military-industrial complex in the SW mythos, and technology literally thousands of years beyond that of the New Sith Empire. Millions of sith or no, the Empire's resources and military prowess turn Vitiate's Empire into a pile of smoking planets within months.

The largest military in the mythos doesn't matter when its made up of stormtroopers. Quality >>> Quantity, remember? Trolololol!

But seriously, millions of Sith shitstomp the Empire.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The largest military in the mythos doesn't matter when its made up of stormtroopers. Quality >>> Quantity, remember? Trolololol!

But seriously, millions of Sith shitstomp the Empire.

What good are millions of Sith (and I think you're assuming that every sith in this number are actual lords) against a fleet of millions (billions?) of warships? Are they going to launch sith lightning at the sky?

Furthermore, we see that the Empire can almost casually construct a 900 kilometer, planet busting superweapon, in secret, in the outer rim, within a matter of months. With a completed Death Star having no exhaust port weakness, how do you expect the other Empire to counter a fleet of those things?

Are thay actually referring to Sith as force users or not? Afterall, Sith often refers to all those under the Sith.

Originally posted by Master Han
What good are millions of Sith (and I think you're assuming that every sith in this number are actual lords) against a fleet of millions (billions?) of warships? Are they going to launch sith lightning at the sky?

Furthermore, we see that the Empire can almost casually construct a 900 kilometer, planet busting superweapon, in secret, in the outer rim, within a matter of months. With a completed Death Star having no exhaust port weakness, how do you expect the other Empire to counter a fleet of those things?

What good are fleets of starships against the Dark Masters, who can solo fleets? The NSE also has a superweapon that can take out fleets.

Lol, a fleet of Death Stars. Okay. 🙄

Originally posted by ares834
Are thay actually referring to Sith as force users or not? Afterall, Sith often refers to all those under the Sith.

There are millions of Sith just competing for the Dark Council positions. Millions of the most powerful Sith in the Empire were considered as Scourges replacement. The amount of Sith in Vitiates Empire is titanic.

Where is this stated? In the TOR encyclopedia and if so what page?

Anyway, a million Sith, while impressive, isn't going to turn the war around. I mean they weren't able to conquer the Republic after all. And, considering the GE has the largest military in the galaxy's history, I doubt the Sith are going to fair any better than they did against the Republic.

Edit: Ah, saw the millions of Sith being considered for the Wrath. Cool. Finally an author begins to understand the scale of the galaxy.

Page 172 and 163. The figure of millions vying for the Council is repeated again at least once.

The Republic had Jedi. Millions of Sith very much are going to turn the war around.

Nah, like Han said fleets are even more important to Galactic combat then ground forces.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What good are fleets of starships against the Dark Masters, who can solo fleets? The NSE also has a superweapon that can take out fleets.

I don't think you're properly considering how a galactic war will work out here. The Empire has millions of warships that can reduce Sith Empire planets into hulks of molten slag from astronomical units away (notice that Vader originally intended to bombard Hoth from beyond the star system, as clarified in the novelization). They can destroy any and all military installations, bases, and whatever with utter impunity, because their navy is orders of magnitude larger and more advanced. It would be like the modern US navy going against the Spanish Armada.

That some of the upper end sith have been implicated to "bring down" warships in specific situations, under unknown timeframes, does not mean that these "millions" of sith can just start one-shotting fleets from millions of kilometers away before they get a turbolaser bolt up their ass.

Lol, a fleet of Death Stars. Okay. 🙄

Not only is it insinuated in the EU that this was the Empire's goal with the projects, but when you consider that they've streamlined the process by RotJ to the point where they can secretly construct a massively oversized one in the outer rim within months, then at full military mobilization, they could have an entire fleet within a matter of years.

Even a single Death Star is more than a match for anything the sith could throw at them. What's to stop it from blowing up dromund kaas immediately upon dropping out of hyperspace?

There are millions of Sith just competing for the Dark Council positions. Millions of the most powerful Sith in the Empire were considered as Scourges replacement. The amount of Sith in Vitiates Empire is titanic.

Not only do I doubt that all of these Sith are particularly worth mentioning, they're still hopelessly outmatched by the Empire's industrial might and military prowess. And we're conveniently forgoing mention of the Empire's sun crushers, galaxy guns and world devastator that Palpatine could have whipped out past RotJ.

Originally posted by ares834
Nah, like Han said fleets are even more important to Galactic combat then ground forces.

And the Dark Masters plus fleet-killing superweapons even it out.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And the Dark Masters

Useless against star destroyers.

plus fleet-killing superweapons even it out.

Fleet killing? 🙄 Being able to destroy TOR-era fleets is nothing compared to being able to mass scatter planets.

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Furthermore, all of your trump cards exist for the sith empire only in small quantities, whereas the Empire has 25,000 ISDs and millions of smaller cruisers, each capable of rendering a planet's surface uninhabitable from millions of kilometers away.

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And we're generously assuming only what both sides have at the start of the war, and that the Empire not only has a list of massively powerful superweapons close to development, and Palpatine almost learning how to conjure Force storms with impunity, but also has a military-industrial complex to the point where it can replace its warships ten times faster than the other empire can destroy them.