Emperor Palpatine -vs- Emperor Vitiate

Started by jadams39289 pages
Originally posted by Eminence
Vitiate seems to fit into a niche as a potent Force-user who is nonetheless a fairly inept combatant. I don't think he's undeserving of most of the accolades heaped upon him by the narration and character testimony in Revan and The Old Republic, the various sourcebooks you've all consulted, and whatever he is accorded in the Timeline entries, but with deference to context they seem to speak to scholarship and prowess ill-suited for confrontation. Like Old Daka's necromancy, Joruus C'baoth or Andeddu's telepathy, and the mastery of any number of practiced alchemists or users of dark side arcana, some esoteric pursuits do not necessarily pay dividends against a sufficiently capable foe, and perhaps like Abeloth not all Force-sensitives have the knack for combat you would expect given their potential. Vitiate has a general efficacy enabled by his talents; that he overpowered Revan when the efforts of Lady Nyriss were so contemptuously rebuked is a noteworthy testament to that. Yet what facilitated that favorable exchange was arrogance on Revan's part following a contest that was not one sided despite the advantages Vitiate enjoyed. I think it's reasonable to conclude that when the deck isn't favorably stacked, he's simply not as dangerous as Palpatine, Luke, and others.

What about the purge of both dark councils as well as his destruction of the jedi strike team?

Originally posted by Eminence
Vitiate seems to fit into a niche as a potent Force-user who is nonetheless a fairly inept combatant. I don't think he's undeserving of most of the accolades heaped upon him by the narration and character testimony in Revan and The Old Republic, the various sourcebooks you've all consulted, and whatever he is accorded in the Timeline entries, but with deference to context they seem to speak to scholarship and prowess ill-suited for confrontation. Like Old Daka's necromancy, Joruus C'baoth or Andeddu's telepathy, and the mastery of any number of practiced alchemists or users of dark side arcana, some esoteric pursuits do not necessarily pay dividends against a sufficiently capable foe, and perhaps like Abeloth not all Force-sensitives have the knack for combat you would expect given their potential. Vitiate has a general efficacy enabled by his talents; that he overpowered Revan when the efforts of Lady Nyriss were so contemptuously rebuked is a noteworthy testament to that. Yet what facilitated that favorable exchange was arrogance on Revan's part following a contest that was not one sided despite the advantages Vitiate enjoyed. I think it's reasonable to conclude that when the deck isn't favorably stacked, he's simply not as dangerous as Palpatine, Luke, and others.

👆

Faunus neglected the fact that Revan had to channel equal parts light and dark for the fight to not be one sided.

That's not really a fact.

It is actually. Vitiate would have stomped him x 2 combo if he hadn't done that iirc. Unless that technique wasn't the method of resisting Vitiates domination that he previously indicated.

Originally posted by Eminence
Vitiate seems to fit into a niche as a potent Force-user who is nonetheless a fairly inept combatant. I don't think he's undeserving of most of the accolades heaped upon him by the narration and character testimony in Revan and The Old Republic, the various sourcebooks you've all consulted, and whatever he is accorded in the Timeline entries, but with deference to context they seem to speak to scholarship and prowess ill-suited for confrontation. Like Old Daka's necromancy, Joruus C'baoth or Andeddu's telepathy, and the mastery of any number of practiced alchemists or users of dark side arcana, some esoteric pursuits do not necessarily pay dividends against a sufficiently capable foe, and perhaps like Abeloth not all Force-sensitives have the knack for combat you would expect given their potential. Vitiate has a general efficacy enabled by his talents; that he overpowered Revan when the efforts of Lady Nyriss were so contemptuously rebuked is a noteworthy testament to that. Yet what facilitated that favorable exchange was arrogance on Revan's part following a contest that was not one sided despite the advantages Vitiate enjoyed. I think it's reasonable to conclude that when the deck isn't favorably stacked, he's simply not as dangerous as Palpatine, Luke, and others.

So this is a display of ineptness in combat:

YouTube video

???

And the fact that he survived as the supreme ruler of a very powerful Sith Empire for a long long time and several attempts on his life?

I think that many are unable to comprehend Vitiate's talents and abilities.

I agree. Vitiate didn't survive that long by being a shitty fighter.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It is actually. Vitiate would have stomped him x 2 combo if he hadn't done that iirc. Unless that technique wasn't the method of resisting Vitiates domination that he previously indicated.

This is completely speculative.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I agree. Vitiate didn't survive that long by being a shitty fighter.

This is textbook false equivalency. There's a veritable chasm between "shitty fighter" and on par with the Emperor. Vitiate may not be the former, true, but that doesn't mean he qualifies for the latter.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are trying to make this feat look more impressive then it is. Nihilus trumps every Sith Lord in this aspect. Should we consider him more powerful then Palpatine?
Um you do know that unlike Nihilus, Palpatine has full control over the same power that Nihilus has absolutely no control over?

And yes, you're right, both didn't need rituals to do such feats.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
Um you do know that unlike Nihilus, Palpatine has full control over the same power that Nihilus has absolutely no control over?

And yes, you're right, both didn't need rituals to do such feats.

Uh Palpatine can't "Eat" the force. Slowly draining the inhabitants of Byss for years isn't anything impressive.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Uh Palpatine can't "Eat" the force. Slowly draining the inhabitants of Byss for years isn't anything impressive.
Uh Nihilus doesn't "eat" the force either if you actually played the game. And considering that palpatines mere presence was leeching life out of the entire planet over time, i see no reason why he couldn't simply quickly drain it all at once had he wanted to.

jadams
What about the purge of both dark councils

What feats can Emperor Vitiate conclusively claim
(1) bereft the aid of ritual, meditation, or other preparatory measures
(2) clear of a world or structure inferred or explicitly stated to be strong in the dark side

jadams
as well as his destruction of the jedi strike team?

As I recall, the Hero of Tython and co. sense that the Emperor is waiting for them and they're walking into a trap. While I won't suggest the Emperor's Force-lightning was bolstered by ritual it stands to reason that he had ample time to gather himself for a stronger effort. Even if he didn't and that was all dredged up then and there, I'm not sure what the implications are supposed to be (although I do appreciate you addressing my question). I'm in agreement with you that the Emperor can dispatch lesser threats with relative impunity, what's up for contention is how he fares against those individuals whose command of the Force (in this arena) rivals his own and have proven to be fighters of appropriate ability and repute.

I consider the dismantling of Mace Windu's company at the hands of Palpatine to be a landmark in lightsaber prowess, but I don't apply his performance in that particular scenario to all others irrespective of his foes, because a suitably formidable swordsman - like Yoda, and to a lesser extent Windu himself - will still hold his own. Likewise, that Emperor Vitiate could overpower Revan or four lesser Jedi (< himself and his tier) has little bearing when he's facing down Palpatine.

jadams
Faunus neglected the fact that Revan had to channel equal parts light and dark for the fight to not be one sided.

If it was neglected it's because I find this incorrect and irrelevant. Nowhere to my knowledge is it confirmed that channeling the Force in this manner is the only way a Force-user (or even Revan) can elude or resist the Emperor's will, it's simply what he chose to do and it worked. The possibility that it was the best or only option available to him in that setting doesn't warrant all this qualification anyway; it wasn't the only time in that fight he put the Emperor on his ass. Ergo, this is probably not an issue someone as strong in Force and mind as Palpatine needs to be concerned with.

Nephthys
Vitiate didn't survive that long by being a shitty fighter.

😬

Perhaps "[relatively] inept" would have been a better choice of words. Given the elaboration I'd hoped you all would get my meaning anyway.

As I recall, the Hero of Tython and co. sense that the Emperor is waiting for them and they're walking into a trap. While I won't suggest the Emperor's Force-lightning was bolstered by ritual it stands to reason that he had ample time to gather himself for a stronger effort. Even if he didn't and that was all dredged up then and there, I'm not sure what the implications are supposed to be (although I do appreciate you addressing my question). I'm in agreement with you that the Emperor can dispatch lesser threats with relative impunity, what's up for contention is how he fares against those individuals whose command of the Force (in this arena) rivals his own and have proven to be fighters of appropriate ability and repute.

Well, you're right in terms of conclusively, but it is reasonable to assume that he dispatched the dark council by himself in his throne room, while having some weird technique to install the other dark council "in a flash of light". And while you're correct about the implications about facing someone like Palpatine, the reverse can be said. Palpatine has never faced anyone with the power of Vitiate, especially mind domination.

If it was neglected it's because I find this incorrect and irrelevant. Nowhere to my knowledge is it confirmed that channeling the Force in this manner is the only way a Force-user (or even Revan) can elude or resist the Emperor's will, it's simply what he chose to do and it worked. The possibility that it was the best or only option available to him in that setting doesn't warrant all this qualification anyway; it wasn't the only time in that fight he put the Emperor on his ass. Ergo, this is probably not an issue someone as strong in Force and mind as Palpatine needs to be concerned with.

I did not say it was the only way, but we've only seen one individual (revan) resist Vitiate's mind domination, and he needed perfect parts light and dark side to do it. Palpatine has never faced a foe like Vitiate, especially when TK is involved, so simply being powerful in the force is unlikely to be enough.

Originally posted by shinkoryu
i see no reason why he couldn't simply quickly drain it all at once had he wanted to.

Palpatine could quickly drain the entire Universe if he wanted to. The only reason Nihilus could drain planets is because Palpatine taught him.

But the Nihilus fanboys will never admit that. 🙂

Didn't George Lucas himself state that "Sidious was the most powerful Sith to have ever lived." That trumps all.

Also, at the top of my head:

“Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.” - New Essential Chronology

“Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.” -Vader the Ultimate Guide

Originally posted by Rookwood
Palpatine could quickly drain the entire Universe if he wanted to. The only reason Nihilus could drain planets is because Palpatine taught him.

But the Nihilus fanboys will never admit that. 🙂

SHUT THE F*CK UP

It was BANDON that taught Nihilus that! Lord Bandon is the most powerful EVER!

Anyways, hadn't Palpatine turned an entire legion of stormtroopers to ash with one blast of lightning by now? I recall a feat along those lines.

Originally posted by Eminence
As I recall, the Hero of Tython and co. sense that the Emperor is waiting for them and they're walking into a trap. While I won't suggest the Emperor's Force-lightning was bolstered by ritual it stands to reason that he had ample time to gather himself for a stronger effort.

That kind of ignores the fact, that the first barrage of lightning he fires at the Jedi is - at least partitially - absorbed / redirected by the Masters. It's the second barrage that overpowers them, and he neither had time to bolster that up with a ritual, nor had he time to "charge" after the first barrage was fired.


Even if he didn't and that was all dredged up then and there, I'm not sure what the implications are supposed to be (although I do appreciate you addressing my question). I'm in agreement with you that the Emperor can dispatch lesser threats with relative impunity, what's up for contention is how he fares against those individuals whose command of the Force (in this arena) rivals his own and have proven to be fighters of appropriate ability and repute.

I'm somewhat surprised that you consider the likes of Malak, Revan, the Exile and Lord Scourge as "lesser threats". Especially after reading Darth Revan, I was under the impression that even when Revan and Scourge confronted Vitiate together with the Exile, neither Revan nor Scourge was certain of their victory. Hence Scourge betraying the two Jedi. And they were all three standing right in front of him, their lightsaber in hand while he was unarmed (if my memory of that scene isn't wrong).

And I'm also uncertain, that there is an individual whos command of the Force does rival that of Vitiate. The guy absorbed an entire planet worth of force energy, including the power of 8,000 Sith Lords.

I consider the dismantling of Mace Windu's company at the hands of Palpatine to be a landmark in lightsaber prowess, but I don't apply his performance in that particular scenario to all others irrespective of his foes, because a suitably formidable swordsman - like Yoda, and to a lesser extent Windu himself - will still hold his own. Likewise, that Emperor Vitiate could overpower Revan or four lesser Jedi (< himself and his tier) has little bearing when he's facing down Palpatine.

The dismantling of Mace Windu's company is either a landmark in terms of deception (interpretation of the fight in the RotS novel) or a demonstration of Force speed (as can be found in the Darth Plagueis novel as well), but certainly no testament to Sidious skill when using a lightsaber. The two instances in which he goes up against expert duellist in a one-on-one situation, he loses his weapon in under a minute (seen against Mace, claimed by the script regarding the fight with Yoda). In that regard, I would say that Sidious and Vitiate both would use their command of the Force to enhance their combat efficiency, rather than relying on actual duelling skill, as people like Dooku or Mace would. Neither of them is an actual "fighter".


If it was neglected it's because I find this incorrect and irrelevant. Nowhere to my knowledge is it confirmed that channeling the Force in this manner is the only way a Force-user (or even Revan) can elude or resist the Emperor's will, it's simply what he chose to do and it worked. The possibility that it was the best or only option available to him in that setting doesn't warrant all this qualification anyway; it wasn't the only time in that fight he put the Emperor on his ass. Ergo, this is probably not an issue someone as strong in Force and mind as Palpatine needs to be concerned with.

If I'm not mistaken, the few instances in which Vitiate's ability of mind-control was "resisted" people broke free of the grasp once and could resist it later. I haven't seen anybody simply "resisting" it. And Revan just managed to put Vitiate on his ass, because the latter was focusing entirely on attempting to mind-dominate Revan, knowing that he was - apparently easily - capable of doing so before.
And you really think offers that much more strength in the Force and especially mind in comparison to Revan, that Vitiate would find it impossible to execute his mind-domination? Somewhat hard to imagine, though I don't think he would even try something like this against individuals like Sidious.

Nai
That kind of ignores the fact, that the first barrage of lightning he fires at the Jedi is - at least partitially - absorbed / redirected by the Masters. It's the second barrage that overpowers them, and he neither had time to bolster that up with a ritual, nor had he time to "charge" after the first barrage was fired.

It certainly precludes a ritual, but he definitely charges up between the 2:20-2:24 mark. We see him coil and gather the energy before it leaves his hands.

YouTube video

Nai
I'm somewhat surprised that you consider the likes of Malak, Revan, the Exile and Lord Scourge as "lesser threats".

Vitiate never dispatched any of them but Revan in combat. As Eminence explained, it was hardly a one-sided contest and Revan was back on his feet moments after foolishly trying to literally manhandle Vitiate's barrage of Force lightning after foolishly allowing him to channel the power to begin with.

Nai
Especially after reading Darth Revan, I was under the impression that even when Revan and Scourge confronted Vitiate together with the Exile, neither Revan nor Scourge was certain of their victory.

An uncertainty they shared with Vitiate, if the text is to be believed.

Nai
Hence Scourge betraying the two Jedi. And they were all three standing right in front of him, their lightsaber in hand while he was unarmed (if my memory of that scene isn't wrong).

Not quite. Scourge had a vision that the Jedi who triumphed over Vitiate would not be Revan. If the text is to be believed, Vitiate "needed" the distraction afforded by Scourge's treacherous murder of Surik to incapacitate Revan.

Nai
And I'm also uncertain, that there is an individual whos command of the Force does rival that of Vitiate. The guy absorbed an entire planet worth of force energy, including the power of 8,000 Sith Lords.

As part of a ritual that at least two sources (The Old Republic Encyclopedia & the in-game codex) alleges was a cooperative effort between Vitiate and the Sith victims.

Nai
The dismantling of Mace Windu's company is either a landmark in terms of deception (interpretation of the fight in the RotS novel) or a demonstration of Force speed (as can be found in the Darth Plagueis novel as well), but certainly no testament to Sidious skill when using a lightsaber. The two instances in which he goes up against expert duellist in a one-on-one situation, he loses his weapon in under a minute (seen against Mace, claimed by the script regarding the fight with Yoda).

Losing to Mace and Yoda hardly disqualifies one as an expert duelist.

Nai
In that regard, I would say that Sidious and Vitiate both would use their command of the Force to enhance their combat efficiency, rather than relying on actual duelling skill, as people like Dooku or Mace would.

I'm not sure.

Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy
But as strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious. The Sith Lord was astonishingly fast and efficient, and the Force flowed through him effortlessly. His sabers stabbed and slashed through the smallest hole in an opponent's guard, his movements never carried him a millimeter out of position, and he could sense every attack Maul or Savage made before it developed.

His lethality clearly owes much to his command of the Force, but in Maul's estimation, Sidious is extremely efficient as a swordsman and (elsewhere) refers to his prowess as "elegant."

Nai
Neither of them is an actual "fighter".

Star Wars Insider #113 refers to Palpatine as a "stunning fighter." Probably an allusion to his political cunning, though.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Well, you're right in terms of conclusively, but it is reasonable to assume that he dispatched the dark council by himself in his throne room, while having some weird technique to install the other dark council "in a flash of light". And while you're correct about the implications about facing someone like Palpatine, the reverse can be said. Palpatine has never faced anyone with the power of Vitiate, especially mind domination.

I did not say it was the only way, but we've only seen one individual (revan) resist Vitiate's mind domination, and he needed perfect parts light and dark side to do it. Palpatine has never faced a foe like Vitiate, especially when TK is involved, so simply being powerful in the force is unlikely to be enough.

I'd really like to b1tchslap you.
Eminence and you have been bitter foes for years, but you're way nicer to him than me. 😬

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It certainly precludes a ritual, but he definitely charges up between the 2:20-2:24 mark. We see him coil and gather the energy before it leaves his hands.

YouTube video

I was more thinking about a prolonged gathering of power before a force attack is unleashed. Something that would require a little bit more time than four seconds. At least I was under the impression, that Eminence had something like that in mind.


Vitiate never dispatched any of them but Revan in combat. As Eminence explained, it was hardly a one-sided contest and Revan was back on his feet moments after foolishly trying to literally manhandle Vitiate's barrage of Force lightning after foolishly allowing him to channel the power to begin with.

Do I need to remind you, that the first time Malak and Revan confronted Vitiate, he didn't even need to fight them (according to Revan's own recollection of the fight) but utterly mindraped them.
And when Revan managed to get an attack in on Vitiate, it is noted - even by Revan - that this was just possible because the Sith Emperor was focusing on attempting to dominate Revan's mind again, probably because he knew that he had been capable to do that before. Had Vitiate chosen to simply utilize his force abilities (e.g. lightning) against the trio as he did agains the Jedi strike team, I don't think Revan, the Exile and Scourge would have stood a change, provided how Vitiate leveled Revan's force defense with an attack before.

An uncertainty they shared with Vitiate, if the text is to be believed.

Where does the text give any account of Vitiate's access to the situation?


Not quite. Scourge had a vision that the Jedi who triumphed over Vitiate would not be Revan. If the text is to be believed, Vitiate "needed" the distraction afforded by Scourge's treacherous murder of Surik to incapacitate Revan.

I wonder what text you did read.

"A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan treid to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been. Revan's body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor pured more and more power into him" - Darth Revan, p.321

Vitiate is quite capable of completely overpowering Revan's force defense, just not with bolts of dark side energy, that he did fire "in quick succession. In the direct confrontation, he still seems rather certain about emerging victorious from that battle. You are, apparently hinting at this here:

"The distraction gave the Emperor the opportunity he needed, and he unleashed another blast of lightning into the Jedi's chest" - Darth Revan, p.325

But he had already downed Revan before. Why not do it again? Why not unleashing the full extend of his abilities against the trio, as he does with the Jedi strike team in the video above?


As part of a ritual that at least two sources (The Old Republic Encyclopedia & the in-game codex) alleges was a cooperative effort between Vitiate and the Sith victims.

Does the "how" somehow change the result?


Losing to Mace and Yoda hardly disqualifies one as an expert duelist.

Correct.
But then, Sidious himself had a master, to whom "lightsaber duels were tedious affairs, full of wasted emotions and needless acrobatics" (Darth Plagueis, iBook, p.80). And in fact, the only instances of actual combat training we witness, is Sidious dismantling some droids (with blasters) and him and Plagueis reducing a tribe of warriors to electro-shocked victims. And Plagueis himself also decided his duel against Venamis making use of his (controlled) fury, rather than of lightsaber expertise. And all we see Sidious do with his lightsaber is pretty much dependent on the (force aided) speed of the Sith Lord, rather than elaborated lightsaber manouvers. After all, we know, that he - unlike the Jedi in his time - didn't have much combat experience when it came to lightsaber duels. As it seems, not even in the form of sparing fights, since their is no account of him fighting Maul or Plagueis in practice fights, while Dooku even notices at one point, that honing his lightsaber abilities is probably beneath Sidious.


His lethality clearly owes much to his command of the Force, but in Maul's estimation, Sidious is extremely efficient as a swordsman and (elsewhere) refers to his prowess as "elegant."

The latter statements don't contradict the former idea. Sidious is certainly efficient when using his weapon and there are probably much and more duellists, that he could overcome with his abilities. Yet, he lacks the "drill" of people who dedicated their lives to lightsaber combat (as Dooku did for example) and, in consequence, might lose a lightsaber duel to a better trained duellist, even if being the (vastly) superior force user. That's what we see, when Mace disarms him and it's a possibility that is mentioned in other sources (e.g. Path of Destruction, when Kas'im starts utilizing two sabers against the otherwise superior Bane).


Star Wars Insider #113 refers to Palpatine as a "stunning fighter." Probably an allusion to his political cunning, though.

In a realm, where every second being capable of holding a lightsaber in hand is dubbed "master swordsman", I'm somewhat reluctant to base my judgement on such quotes. And Vitiate is, likewise, no pushover when it comes to direct action. Especially if you consider that most of the action in ToR is just him acting through his "voice", while a part of his essence (and power) resides within his Hands, his original body and his "children". Hence it's somewhat difficult to grasp the full extend of his abilities.