In the interest of keeping this concise:
1. When I make note of "lesser [threats, individuals, etc.]" the intent is not to denigrate characters but to illustrate, with respect to Emperors Vitiate and Palpatine and those whom we can all agree rank highly in an otherwise loose hierarchy, that the conquest of even a collective of relatively (as in relative to the aforementioned parties) Force-weak or otherwise outclassed foes does not necessarily reflect the likely outcome of a contest between peers. Nai, you make this point yourself: Palpatine slaughters the notoriously martial Kolar, ace pilot Tiin, and a highly accomplished Kit Fisto in [seven?] seconds - that this is indicative of speed or ferocity stemming from the Force rather than technical proficiency is not at issue - but in Yoda and the Vaapad-immersed Windu he finds and is stymied by swordsmen of his caliber. The same should be expected of Emperor Vitiate and whatever aspects correspond.
Concerning "the likes of Malak, Revan, the Exile and Lord Scourge":
a. Revan had already been precluded; I've made clear that I don't think the Emperor was acting with any sort of impunity in his contest with Revan, and contextually made a note of demarcating him from the "four lesser Jedi" felled on the space station. They are considered together only to observe that neither party is the equivalent of Palpatine.
b. As I recall neither Scourge nor the Exile makes an objective assessment of the odds against Vitiate with Revan at their side, but Scourge is momentarily waylaid and subsequently driven to action by an influx of premonitions, not fear. I'm not sure what Malak has to offer here.
2. My stance on Emperor Vitiate's efficacy in combat against a comparably powerful foe on neutral ground is still rooted here:
Eminence
What feats can Emperor Vitiate conclusively claim
(1) bereft the aid of ritual, meditation, or other preparatory measures
(2) clear of a world or structure inferred or explicitly stated to be strong in the dark side
(3) without the tenuity of hearsay, legend, or ambiguous circumstancethat
(a) warrant his repute as a formidable top-tier combatant?
(b) Emperor Palpatine hasn't done first or better?
jadams
Palpatine has never faced a foe like Vitiate, especially when TK is involved, so simply being powerful in the force is unlikely to be enough.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
This is completely speculative.
How so?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
This is textbook false equivalency. There's a veritable chasm between "shitty fighter" and on par with the Emperor. Vitiate may not be the former, true, but that doesn't mean he qualifies for the latter.
Legend and myself were referring to where Faunus called Vitiate a 'fairly inept combatant.' I disagree, Vitiate has whooped enough ass over the millennia to preclude that description. I get that he didn't mean it to a certain extent, but I still feel that its disingenuous.
Originally posted by Eminence
Eh? Genuine: has Vitiate done something with telekinesis that you think Darth Vader, Yoda or Starkiller can't?
He disintegrated T3-M4 and demolished the Dark Temple while dying from a saber wound. That doesn't necessarily put him above those gaudy heights but he's still in the upper echelons.
Nai
I was more thinking about a prolonged gathering of power before a force attack is unleashed. Something that would require a little bit more time than four seconds. At least I was under the impression, that Eminence had something like that in mind.
In a clash among Force adepts, four seconds is a veritable eternity. You need only refer to the fate of Masters Kolar & Tiin for that truth.
Nai
Do I need to remind you, that the first time Malak and Revan confronted Vitiate, he didn't even need to fight them (according to Revan's own recollection of the fight) but utterly mindraped them.
Do I need to remind you that Malak and Revan were being led into an elaborate trap concocted by Vitiate and executed by Yaris, his captain of the guard?
Revan
“True, but we didn’t know that at the time,” Revan explained. “We were being led into a trap; the Emperor wanted us to come to him. When we got to his throne room, he was ready and waiting.” His voice dropped low. “We underestimated his power.
Nai
And when Revan managed to get an attack in on Vitiate, it is noted - even by Revan - that this was just possible because the Sith Emperor was focusing on attempting to dominate Revan's mind again, probably because he knew that he had been capable to do that before. Had Vitiate chosen to simply utilize his force abilities (e.g. lightning) against the trio as he did agains the Jedi strike team, I don't think Revan, the Exile and Scourge would have stood a change, provided how Vitiate leveled Revan's force defense with an attack before.
That's possible, but then it doesn't explain Vitiate's hesitation later in the duel. Regardless, the fact that the Jedi strike team had to weather the initial storm of lightning might very well be the reason they succumbed so easily to the second salvo.
Nai
Where does the text give any account of Vitiate's access to the situation?
It doesn't have any passages from his viewpoint.
Revan
Sensing hesitation and uncertainty in the Emperor as he tried to evaluate the strength and weaknesses of his new foe, Scourge rushed forward to join Meetra and Revan.
Nai
I wonder what text you did read.
The same one you claimed to have read yourself.
Nai
Vitiate is quite capable of completely overpowering Revan's force defense, just not with bolts of dark side energy, that he did fire "in quick succession.
That was when Revan arrogantly tried to absorb them barehanded. Even if Vitiate is capable of overwhelming a character's Force defense, that character may not afford him the opportunity to do so.
Nai
In the direct confrontation, he still seems rather certain about emerging victorious from that battle.
Not really. His own words hint at neutrality on the subject: "That remains to be seen."
You are, apparently hinting at this here:
Nai
"The distraction gave the Emperor the opportunity he needed, and he unleashed another blast of lightning into the Jedi's chest" - Darth Revan, p.325But he had already downed Revan before. Why not do it again? Why not unleashing the full extend of his abilities against the trio, as he does with the Jedi strike team in the video above?
Because there was no guarantee of success without Revan trying to take it on barehanded?
Nai
Does the "how" somehow change the result?
Why would absorbing the essence of other Sith be impressive if they submitted to the process?
Nai
Correct.
But then, Sidious himself had a master, to whom "lightsaber duels were tedious affairs, full of wasted emotions and needless acrobatics" (Darth Plagueis, iBook, p.80). And in fact, the only instances of actual combat training we witness, is Sidious dismantling some droids (with blasters) and him and Plagueis reducing a tribe of warriors to electro-shocked victims. And Plagueis himself also decided his duel against Venamis making use of his (controlled) fury, rather than of lightsaber expertise. And all we see Sidious do with his lightsaber is pretty much dependent on the (force aided) speed of the Sith Lord, rather than elaborated lightsaber manouvers. After all, we know, that he - unlike the Jedi in his time - didn't have much combat experience when it came to lightsaber duels. As it seems, not even in the form of sparing fights, since their is no account of him fighting Maul or Plagueis in practice fights, while Dooku even notices at one point, that honing his lightsaber abilities is probably beneath Sidious.
Plagueis's disinterest in the field notwithstanding, the sentence goes on to claim that Tenebrous had proclaimed him "a master" of the art. Clearly among Force adepts skill is not contingent solely on their passion for it. Though no one argues that the Emperor relishes crossing blades with an enemy.
Nai
The latter statements don't contradict the former idea. Sidious is certainly efficient when using his weapon and there are probably much and more duellists, that he could overcome with his abilities. Yet, he lacks the "drill" of people who dedicated their lives to lightsaber combat (as Dooku did for example) and, in consequence, might lose a lightsaber duel to a better trained duellist, even if being the (vastly) superior force user. That's what we see, when Mace disarms him and it's a possibility that is mentioned in other sources (e.g. Path of Destruction, when Kas'im starts utilizing two sabers against the otherwise superior Bane).
The quality of his technique, as suggested by Maul, suggests some measure of skill as a swordsman that does not owe completely to Force enhanced physicality.
Nai
In a realm, where every second being capable of holding a lightsaber in hand is dubbed "master swordsman", I'm somewhat reluctant to base my judgement on such quotes.
That's your prerogative, but that risks running into our persistent impasse.
Nai
And Vitiate is, likewise, no pushover when it comes to direct action.
No one has seriously contended that he's a pushover. As I explained to Nephthys, there is a vast difference between "pushover" and "Palpatine." Vitiate may not qualify for either.
Nai
Especially if you consider that most of the action in ToR is just him acting through his "voice", while a part of his essence (and power) resides within his Hands, his original body and his "children". Hence it's somewhat difficult to grasp the full extend of his abilities.
Weren't they created after the duel in Revan?
Nephthys
Legend and myself were referring to where Faunus called Vitiate a 'fairly inept combatant.' I disagree, Vitiate has whooped enough ass over the millennia to preclude that description. I get that he didn't mean it to a certain extent, but I still feel that its disingenuous.
@Tempest:
You ask too much. Suffice to say I am highly impressed by the integration of so much extant material. The politicking was engaging, too. I don't think I'll be able to rewatch the prequel trilogy (Clones largely excepted) without the events of this book coloring a very positive reinterpretation.
Originally posted by Eminence
1. When I make note of "lesser [threats, individuals, etc.]" the intent is not to denigrate characters but to illustrate, with respect to Emperors Vitiate and Palpatine and those whom we can all agree rank highly in an otherwise loose hierarchy, that the conquest of even a collective of relatively (as in relative to the aforementioned parties) Force-weak or otherwise outclassed foes does not necessarily reflect the likely outcome of a contest between peers.
This far, I can agree with your stance, but after this, our views do differ:
Nai, you make this point yourself: Palpatine slaughters the notoriously martial Kolar, ace pilot Tiin, and a highly accomplished Kit Fisto in [seven?] seconds - that this is indicative of speed or ferocity stemming from the Force rather than technical proficiency is not at issue - but in Yoda and the Vaapad-immersed Windu he finds and is stymied by swordsmen of his caliber. The same should be expected of Emperor Vitiate and whatever aspects correspond.
The difference here is, that the, while the Jedi accomplishing Mace had some renown concering their skill with a lightsaber [wherever that came from in the first place], they weren't known as power houses in the force. And here, the situation that Vitiate found himself in, when confronting Revan, the Exile and Scourge was different.
Revan was a living legend. That he was capable of overpowering Darth Nyriss with relative ease is testament to his own abilities with the Force (especially considering he had just gone through years of medical intoxication and a sever mental trauma, when his memories returned). Yet, he doesn't even register in comparison to Vitiate, once the letter decides to throw "everything he had" at Revan. Likewise the Exile, who has - after all - rid the Galaxy of Darth Nihilus and was a Wound in the Force, wasn't registered as a threat by Vitiate (and viewed herself as far below Revan in terms of force mastery). Add Scourge, who, despite lacking in the Force mastery department, had a gift of feeding of his opponents powers in combat. Even confronting that trio - where Revan alone would pose a threat to most Sith / Jedi in the mythos, Vitiate seems certain that he will walk away from that fight alive.
b. As I recall neither Scourge nor the Exile makes an objective assessment of the odds against Vitiate with Revan at their side, but Scourge is momentarily waylaid and subsequently driven to action by an influx of premonitions, not fear. I'm not sure what Malak has to offer here.
Scourge thought, that there was no way to determine the more likely outcome of the fight. Revan, when imprisoned by Vitiate, comes to the same conclusion. When Revan and Malak went to confront Vitiate for the first time, he simply mindraped them, not even granting them a "fight".
2. My stance on Emperor Vitiate's efficacy in combat against a comparably powerful foe on neutral ground is still rooted here:
Ah, Faunus. What would happen, if you'd apply the same questions you list here to Sidious feats?
A holistic and contextual look at this Emperor indicates to me that his centuries of scholarship and reflection better serve practices that are of little utility in this arena.
The same could be said about Sidious, aside from the fact, that he had 1200 years less time to explore the Dark Side.
I agree that he is gifted; that his long life and exploration of the dark side has granted him a skillset that is among the best in a setting that favors its application; and that despite his relative (as in relative to both his own likely potential and what is exhibited by others of comparable standing) lack of martial prowess he is capable of overwhelming most characters through brute force. But I don't think what works against most characters will work against Palpatine, and I have yet to see evidence that without a stacked deck Emperor Vitiate can really match him.
Again, I can just repeat my question: What would happen to the feats of the Emperor, if you would analyze them following the same questions, you want people apply to Vitiate's feats. I doubt there would be much left to put Sidious on a pedestal, starting with the fact that, apparently, Plagueis and Sidious have managed to generate an Galaxy spanning condition favoring the actions of Sith, while in turn deminishing the abilities of the Jedi to touch the Force [via month long meditation / rituals]. Applying the questions above, all of Sidious feats did benefit from that circumstance [at least until his death in RotJ, bringing balance to the Force], while later feats would always be performed with additional power drawn from the people on Byss [e.g. the Force storms conjured in orbit of that planet].
Originally posted by Eminence
If Legend and yourself could be bothered to consider the context (namely the chunk of qualifier in the proximate paragraph) you probably wouldn't, although I might just be underestimating the passion this topic elicits. I'm sorry my indiscretion has so affronted you.
You also said he was a scholar ill-suited to confrontation. This offends me deeply. Expect my Jihad in the mail shortly.
Originally posted by Nai
The dismantling of Mace Windu's company is either a landmark in terms of deception (interpretation of the fight in the RotS novel) or a demonstration of Force speed (as can be found in the Darth Plagueis novel as well), but certainly no testament to Sidious skill when using a lightsaber. The two instances in which he goes up against expert duellist in a one-on-one situation, he loses his weapon in under a minute (seen against Mace, claimed by the script regarding the fight with Yoda). In that regard, I would say that Sidious and Vitiate both would use their command of the Force to enhance their combat efficiency, rather than relying on actual duelling skill, as people like Dooku or Mace would. Neither of them is an actual "fighter".
Palpatine's ability to apply his tremendous speed skillfully in a lightsaber duel is what makes him one of the greatest lightsaber duelists in the entire mythos. He is an "actual fighter."
correct me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting that Vitiate can replicate Palpatine's lightsaber feats?
Originally posted by -kV-
Didn't George Lucas himself state that "Sidious was the most powerful Sith to have ever lived." That trumps all.Also, at the top of my head:
“Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.” - New Essential Chronology
“Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.” -Vader the Ultimate Guide [/B]
Alive, in History; Known by the Galaxy.
Key words, here. 😉
As an entity that did not breathe, eat (in the traditional sense) bleed, sleep, reproduce, etc - Nihilus could arguably not be considered "alive".
And information points to the existence of Nihilus not being known to either the Galaxy or the History books.
- He was simply a maelstrom of power; a phantom, that was known to a literal few and then gone.
Nihilus dwarfs Palpatine in power and killing ability - but, for all intents and purposes, Palpatine is the most powerful organic (living) Sith Lord - known by History and known to the Galaxy.
Originally posted by Pwned
SHUT THE F*CK UPIt was BANDON that taught Nihilus that! Lord Bandon is the most powerful EVER!
Haha. Sore Nihilus fanboy. 😉
Palpatine with one blast of Force Lightning, could convert Nihilus into ash.
His Lightning far exceeds the destructive output of the Mass Shadow Generator that ripped Malachor V asunder.
Search your feelings, you know them to be true..
Originally posted by RookwoodI, uh... Think you misinterpreted my post there.
Haha. Sore Nihilus fanboy. 😉Palpatine with one blast of Force Lightning, could convert Nihilus into ash.
His Lightning far exceeds the destructive output of the Mass Shadow Generator that ripped Malachor V asunder.
Search your feelings, you know them to be true..
You should check out the names. I said it was Lord Bandon. All bow before the might of Bandon.
FYI, I hate Nihilus. Over-hyped guy with next to no feats.
Originally posted by Pwned
I, uh... Think you misinterpreted my post there.You should check out the names. I said it was Lord Bandon. All bow before the might of Bandon.
It's all a matter of transference - your faith in Bandon, leads you to believe that Nihilus must surely be more powerful than Palpatine - when there's no proof for that.
..besides Canon.
But that's another story, for another time. 😛
Originally posted by Pwned
FYI, I hate Nihilus. Over-hyped guy with next to no feats.
You're touting him as a champion student of Bandon, pretending he's greater than the man a half-dead cyborg chucked down a shaft, like a bag of trash.
And Nihilus is over-hyped.
I mean, what, tanking a blast that ripped a Planet into pieces? - Ripping a monstrous ship out of the grasp of a planetary gravity-well? - Killing entire Planets full of people in seconds, with a single utterance?
- mere childsplay.
Nihilus does not possess the keen patience of Palpatine, to be able to slowly absorb the lifeforce of a planet, over a period of decades.
And I'd love to see how the weight of a Warship, stuck within the Gravity-Signature of a Planet - can compare - to the weight of three - count 'em, three floating senate pods.
It can't - those senate pods are the epitome of telekinetic-strength.
Warship. Pah. 😛
A maelstrom-wormhole of Dark side energy - enshrouded in Armor and a cloak.
That's not cool - what is cool, is being a wrinkly little man, with bowel-incontinence, who constantly has to live off of a diet of prunes and oatmeal.
Palpatine rocks - while Darth "I'm the embodiment of the death of the Force" Nihilus, is merely along for the ride.
So the next time you think of touting Nihilus as a great student of Bandon - think again, because even the great Bandon, will one day have to invite Palpatine to come live with him upon his retirement
- And Bandon will be stuck, changing the diapers of Palpatine, and feeding him prunes - for the thousands of years Palpatine expects to live with him. 😄
Palpatine always wins.
Originally posted by Eminence
@Tempest and Rookwood
Originally posted by Eminence
What feats can Emperor Vitiate conclusively claim
(1) bereft the aid of ritual, meditation, or other preparatory measures
While you intend to scrutinize Vitiate's abilities in this aspect, you should do the same for other characters as well.
Originally posted by Eminence
(2) clear of a world or structure inferred or explicitly stated to be strong in the dark side
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So this is a display of ineptness in combat:???
And the fact that he survived as the supreme ruler of a very powerful Sith Empire for a long long time and several attempts on his life?
I think that many are unable to comprehend Vitiate's talents and abilities.
- took place aboard a space station. Good enough for you?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
(3) without the tenuity of hearsay, legend, or ambiguous circumstance
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
that
(a) warrant his repute as a formidable top-tier combatant?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
(b) Emperor Palpatine hasn't done first or better?
Palpatine's greatest combat feats are with the Lightsaber. In contrast, Vitiate's greatest combat feats are with the Force.
Originally posted by Eminence
1. When I make note of "lesser [threats, individuals, etc.]" the intent is not to denigrate characters but to illustrate, with respect to Emperors Vitiate and Palpatine and those whom we can all agree rank highly in an otherwise loose hierarchy, that the conquest of even a collective of relatively (as in relative to the aforementioned parties) Force-weak or otherwise outclassed foes does not necessarily reflect the likely outcome of a contest between peers. Nai, you make this point yourself: Palpatine slaughters the notoriously martial Kolar, ace pilot Tiin, and a highly accomplished Kit Fisto in [seven?] seconds - that this is indicative of speed or ferocity stemming from the Force rather than technical proficiency is not at issue - but in Yoda and the Vaapad-immersed Windu he finds and is stymied by swordsmen of his caliber. The same should be expected of Emperor Vitiate and whatever aspects correspond.
Originally posted by Eminence
Concerning "the likes of Malak, Revan, the Exile and Lord Scourge":
a. Revan had already been precluded; I've made clear that I don't think the Emperor was acting with any sort of impunity in his contest with Revan, and contextually made a note of demarcating him from the "four lesser Jedi" felled on the space station. They are considered together only to observe that neither party is the equivalent of Palpatine.
Hero of Tython is a Champion of the Light (arguably even more powerful then Satele Shan); acknowledged as immensely powerful in the Force and also an extraordinarily skilled Lightsaber duelist.
Tol Braga is a powerful individual who held his own against Hero of Tython with the Force for a while after his fall. Prior to this; he dueled a Dark Counciler to a draw, who was so impressed by the former's skill and personality that he turned to Light in the aftermath. (This event alone proved to be vital for the Jedi Order's survival in the long run but this is another story.)
Warren Sedoru is a battle-hardened Jedi who had survived near death situations several times.
Leeha Nerazz gained the reputation of a Jedi who "never knew failure" and was considered worthy enough to be selected by Tol Braga for such a risky mission.
In the nutshell, this Jedi Strike Team wan't formed in haste and did not comprised of amateurs/incompetent individuals.
Nonetheless, Tol Braga wasn't foolish enough to challenge Vitiate alone and neither he expected even Hero of Tython to succeed without his help against such a foe in good shape.
When all the selected individuals got together, Tol Braga then clearly pointed out to Vitiate, prior to the confrontation, that the latter doesn't stands a chance against the combined might of such capable Jedi. However, Vitiate showed the whole Jedi Strike Team that how potent one can become with the power of the dark side. After this confrontation, the Jedi changed their strategy to handle Vitiate; thanks to betrayal from Lord Scourge during this tenure, such an opportunity came, and Vitiate was struck at his most vulnerable moment.
In short, shit happens. We just need to focus on the big picture and try to comprehend it properly.
Originally posted by Eminence
b. As I recall neither Scourge nor the Exile makes an objective assessment of the odds against Vitiate with Revan at their side, but Scourge is momentarily waylaid and subsequently driven to action by an influx of premonitions, not fear. I'm not sure what Malak has to offer here.
- Meetra haven't met Vitiate before. But she was very brave and confident still; this doesn't surprises me since she had handled Sith Triumvirate before.
- Scourge was also uncertain about the outcome due to his past history with Vitiate. He decided no to take risk in the end.
So we have two guys who were uncertain about the outcome of this confrontation (both had history with Vitiate); and both shared this uncertainty even when working in a team.
Originally posted by Eminence
2. My stance on Emperor Vitiate's efficacy in combat against a comparably powerful foe on neutral ground is still rooted here:A holistic and contextual look at this Emperor indicates to me that his centuries of scholarship and reflection better serve practices that are of little utility in this arena. I agree that he is gifted; that his long life and exploration of the dark side has granted him a skillset that is among the best in a setting that favors its application; and that despite his relative (as in relative to both his own likely potential and what is exhibited by others of comparable standing) lack of martial prowess he is capable of overwhelming most characters through brute force. But I don't think what works against most characters will work against Palpatine, and I have yet to see evidence that without a stacked deck Emperor Vitiate can really match him.
Originally posted by Eminence
Eh? Genuine: has Vitiate done something with telekinesis that you think Darth Vader, Yoda or Starkiller can't?
