The better Dark Knight villain: Bane or Joker?

Started by Arachnid116 pages

Originally posted by quanchi112
You're speculating. Bane was the final great villain. Joker was the middle act. End of discussion. Bane's plans were far greater. He broke batman on screen.
You're convincing yourself of false facts. Bane was a good villain, but not a great final villian. Those plans where Talia's, and they weren't any greater than Ras' or Jokers. He broke Batman physically, and Joker broke him mentally, which was much worse. Bane, while significantly more competent, was nothing more than hired muscle just like in the Schumacher film. Besides the first sentence, all of that is fact. That is the end of the discussion.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
You're convincing yourself of false facts. Bane was a good villain, but not a great final villian. Those plans where Talia's, and they weren't any greater than Ras' or Jokers. He broke Batman physically, and Joker broke him mentally, which was much worse. Bane, while significantly more competent, was nothing more than hired muscle just like in the Schumacher film. Besides the first sentence, all of that is fact. That is the end of the discussion.
He carried the plan out. He was the focal point. She might have been someone he answered to but for what we know he did so. You're speculating because you're biased. No, Joker was easily rounded up. Batman needed the entire police force to take back the city. Bane>>>Joker. You lose.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
What I'm arguing is that those weren't Banes plans. The reason I believe this is because Bane never had any kind of motivation for taking down Gotham. He was just following Talia, who had all the reason in the world to destroy Gotham and Batman. Talia and he had some kind of relationship where they both felt they owed eachother. Bane felt he owed her his life for getting him out of the pit and into the league. He had no other motivation to want to put Wayne through hell like that other than at Talias request. He wasn't even in the League of Shadows until after Talia took control, which at best was 8 years prior when Ras' died. Ras' kicked him out, so there is no way Bane did it to avenge his death. This entire thing was orchestrated by Talia. Thats the only thing that makes sense. That's why her being the mastermind was heavily implied.

I'm also arguing that Joker did significantly more with a whole lot less. Both of their end games was to destroy Gotham in some way, just like Ras' in Begins. Talias plan wasn't grander than Jokers, and neither of their plans were grander than Ras'. The exact same thing was at stake in all 3 movies. It was just through a different medium and a bit more direct. Joker was going to psychologically destroy an entire city (kind of like Ras' plan in the first one, except without the fear gas). Joker also did his carnage by himself, which made it even more impressive.

I also feel that Batman went through and sacrificed a whole lot more both before and after capturing the Joker. This was far from easy. For Bane, all he had to do was work out intensely for a few months while living in bad living conditions and enduring a ton of pain. He never really lost anything personal, and he never lost his motivation to come back to Gotham as Batman to save it. I feel that was do to his mental progression he had to make after the Joker, because Joker was a psychological adversary. This movie was more about him rebuilding himself and rising after the second movie which was the fall. Thats why Nolan made those words the tag lines for their respective movies. He wouldn't revisit the same plot point again (especially when it was already done so well). That would be retreading old ground.

Bane was once in the LOS, which would imply that he probably shared their ideals. The fact that he continued to do mercenary work afterwords almost confirms this. We don't know exactly what kind of work he did, but it had to have fit inside his destructive, totalitarian mindset. Combine this speculation with what we see on screen, as well as his fanatically devoted followers, and compare it against what we see and know about Talia, and it brings your theory into doubt. Obviously Talia and Bane owed each other, and were close to each other via their time in the Pit, which leads me to think that they were co-conspirators. If Bane was just another lackey, the movie we saw wouldn't make sense. Why focus so much on one guy who's not important in the grand scheme of things? At worst, Bane would be akin to the decoy Ra's Al Ghul that was killed in Batman Begins.

I do agree that The Joker is a much better villain, however. I enjoyed Bane(and Talia, what little we saw of her), but there's a good reason that one was nominated for an Academy Award and the other wasn't. It's not Hardy's fault, I blame the flaws of the movies instead.

The Joker

I like how this went for 15 pages. F*ckin nerds, man.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I like how this went for 15 pages. F*ckin nerds, man.

I like how you say that as though youre not one...,As you post a reply on an internet forum dedicated primarily towards entertainment. You're so slick

Regarding the topic...,I think, Bane could have been just as good a villain had his character been properly realized and developed.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I like how this went for 15 pages. F*ckin nerds, man.
You're the nerd, you nerd.

Phuck you!

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
I like how you say that as though youre not one...,As you post a reply on an internet forum dedicated primarily towards entertainment. You're so slick
Can't get anything past you, you clever dog.

Originally posted by Mindset
You're the nerd, you nerd.

Phuck you!

No-uh... a f*ck YOU!

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx

Regarding the topic...,I think, Bane could have been just as good a villain had his character been properly realized and developed.

Nolan already did the "villain twist" in Begins. Bane was portrayed intelligent enough only to be reduced to a love-lorn henchman in the end of TDKR.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

No-uh... a f*ck YOU!

Hmm, no dude, PHUCK YOU!

Heath ledger's Joker hands Down. Joker was a much deeper and twisted villain bane was merely a henchman

No he wasn't. Bane was not a henchmen. I'm sick of people saying that. There is NOTHING in the movie that suggests this.

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
I like how you say that as though youre not one...,As you post a reply on an internet forum dedicated primarily towards entertainment. You're so slick

Regarding the topic...,I think, Bane could have been just as good a villain had his character been properly realized and developed.

This. TDKR had a plot that was just too complex(convoluted if you're less forgiving) to do in a single movie. I mean, f.ucking Kill Bill and Harry Potter and Twilight had finales that were split into two movies and all of those had far less going on in them.

Originally posted by Dr Will Hatch
No he wasn't. Bane was not a henchmen. I'm sick of people saying that. There is NOTHING in the movie that suggests this.

Henchman: A loyal & trusted follower or subordinate.

Talia's lap dog.

And where in the movie is Bane ever referred to as a subordinate to Talia?

Never, that's where. There is not one scene or line of dialogue that states that the two have a Leader/Follower relationship.

I hate to be the one who brings this up, and I'm not saying that you specifically are like this, but whenever I hear the "Bane was Talia's b.itch" argument, I can't help but sense a certain amount of sexism. If it had been Ra's Al Ghul working with Bane on the Occupy Gotham plot, I don't think many people would have complained. But because it IS Talia working with him, that makes Bane p.ussywhiped.

Well that's only because Ras is a man and Talia is a worthless woman.

Originally posted by Esau Cairn
Henchman: A loyal & trusted follower or subordinate.

Talia's lap dog.

+1

Banes a henchman.

Originally posted by Dr Will Hatch
I hate to be the one who brings this up, and I'm not saying that you specifically are like this, but whenever I hear the "Bane was Talia's b.itch" argument, I can't help but sense a certain amount of sexism. If it had been Ra's Al Ghul working with Bane on the Occupy Gotham plot, I don't think many people would have complained. But because it IS Talia working with him, that makes Bane p.ussywhiped.
lol at "working with". Bane was working FOR Talia, becuase he was in love with her. He was her top lieutenant and most loyal man. But he was her subordinate. She was in charge. He was, by definition of the word, her henchman.

Originally posted by Dr Will Hatch
I hate to be the one who brings this up, and I'm not saying that you specifically are like this, but whenever I hear the "Bane was Talia's b.itch" argument, I can't help but sense a certain amount of sexism.

The moment Miranda reveals herself as Talia, it becomes obviously apparent that Bane was a)never in charge, b) following her orders & c) hopelessly in love & faithful to Talia.

A love that Talia didn't give back but exploited in Bane.
This doesn't make Bane her b#tch but a faithful follower.
In the end, it's Talia's plans to follow in her father's plan to destroy Gotham, not Bane.