Shaman Nate Grey VS Worldbreaker Hulk

which makes me think, I really wonder to what extent his reality warping abilities could of gone, they should of touched up on it more

He would've thrown a spanner in Avengers/X-men, if they hadn't depowered him.

Barring exotics and bfr.

Regarding telepathy
Hulk may or may not fall to X-Man's teleapthy. Some would point out Xavier failed to do so in WWH. I would quickly point out, that he is vastly more potent Telepath than Xaiver. food for thought, he was drilling Xaviers mind, and all Earth telepaths when he cut loose a psychic wave across the globe. He is after all a bio weapon, designed to expunge all life Earth.

Force for Force
Its ridiculous to think Nate would stoop himself into a dogfight with Hulk, knowing he cant put him down. For one his is a telepathic/precog, Nate would know the results of such fight before they play out. Secondly, Nate knows more of Hulk, than Hulk of Nate. He took a tour down history lane, and was brought up to date with all major events that took place in his absence. That includes the World War Hulk shenanigans.

Originally posted by "Id"
Barring exotics and bfr.

[b]Regarding telepathy
Hulk may or may not fall to X-Man's teleapthy. Some would point out Xavier failed to do so in WWH. I would quickly point out, that he is vastly more potent Telepath than Xaiver. food for thought, he was drilling Xaviers mind, and all Earth telepaths when he cut loose a psychic wave across the globe. He is after all a bio weapon, designed to expunge all life Earth.

Force for Force
Its ridiculous to think Nate would stoop himself into a dogfight with Hulk, knowing he cant put him down. For one his is a telepathic/precog, Nate would know the results of such fight before they play out. Secondly, Nate knows more of Hulk, than Hulk of Nate. He took a tour down history lane, and was brought up to date with all major events that took place in his absence. That includes the World War Hulk shenanigans. [/B]

Also, going into Planck time enables him to see everything of a person's past, present and history. Doing this at the start would equip him with every little detail he would need to know, if he needs to.

Agreed with the TP attacks, too. I just didn't want to get bogged down on the gap between Xavier and Nate being equal/less than/greater than the gap between WBH and WWH....

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Goddamn, right...

Neither is Hulk. Yet, somehow, you have him thunder-clapping and pouring out his energy before the fight? That is biased, surely?

Maybe I read your intentions wrong. So before the bell rings, neither side does anything. No omnidirectional energy, no thunderclaps, no exotic Nate stuff.

The bell rings. Immediately, you have Hulk thunderclapping. But strangely, Nate does nothing? My rebuttal to your next post will show you why I think you're wrong here.

Never said the reaction to Northstar et al was an exotic move. I put that up to show his reaction speed, which is fairly decent. So IF Hulk thunder claps from the get go (which he doesn't do, but I'll let that slide), Nate can still react to it. By either shifting intangible, or doing this:

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/5679/xfactor02236.jpg

So no need to stop it, just either let it pass harmlessly through (intangible) or around (shifting). Unless you can prove the shockwave from Hulk is faster than the shockwave of a bomb? Good luck. This is ignoring his ability to just say 'stop' as soon as the bell rings.

Look at the scan again. I reproduce it in its glory here. He is in midthought, and mid flight, when the lightning strikes. He stops thinking (showing his mind was on other things at the time of the strike), and even flies parallel to the lightning bolt for a bit, as he pulls up. His arm goes up, his right leg goes down...all in REACTION to the lightning. A lightning bolt crashed through right in front of him, and he managed to stop himself before he flew into it.

So in summary:

Before the bell, neither side can use their powers. No omniblast, no precog, no thunder-clap, no superspeed.

*Ding*

Hulk leads with a thunderclap, and starts pouring out energy. But Nate has the reactions to see the energy, bend it around him, go intangible, then do whatever he wants at a leisurely pace (I haven't even mentioned him stepping into Planck time yet).

Your mistake, I think, is to regard this like a Street Fighter/Tekken game fight - that something has to happen (combo button mash, or in this case, Nate has to think 'precog on', or 'superspeed on'😉 before it happens. Which it isn't. As soon as the bell goes, all powers are on automatically. [/B]

The force would be unstoppable for Nate. He doesn't have the power to stop WBH. Doesn't matter if he sees it coming. The point is can he activate his exotic powers faster than Hulk's thunderclap can reach him?

I didn't see Nate going intangible there. Even so then how long would it take for him to do it? Nate could have reacted to the lightning far away and only managed to stop within a few feet of it. You see the energy lines of his path going out of the picture. Meaning the lightning could have struck in front of him. And he just stop because of surprise.

I didn't say Hulk will lead with a thunderclap. But he could knowing Nate's abilities or while being lifted in the air.

Bran is acting silly, of course Nate will try to lift Hulk. This is common sense stuff. Posting a scan of Nate doing something else doesn't mean he's immune to doing the stupid and lifting Hulk.

Did you see the scan where a weaker Nate was curving the shockwaves and shrapnel from an explosion around him? a feat directly applicable to this battle. He can and has reacted to explosive energies heading in his direction, pre upgrade.

I've never said he could match Hulk force for force. In fact, all the strategies involve letting the destructive energies of the Hulk either pass through or around him.

And again, you're making the mistake of thinking Shaman Nate has to activate his powers to use them. They're always on, its like saying Hulk has to think in order to have his HF

And Nate knows Hulks abilities better than Hulk knows his.

He goes intangible against a simultaneous attack from Daken (at melee range), and Bullseye at pretty close range:

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/3315/darkxmen003012.jpg

So its not like he has to shout Hadouken, or do hand seals, or anything like that.

He goes intangible against a simultaneous attack from Daken (at melee range), and Bullseye at pretty close range:

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/3315/darkxmen003012.jpg

So its no

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Did you see the scan where a weaker Nate was curving the shockwaves and shrapnel from an explosion around him? a feat directly applicable to this battle. He can and has reacted to explosive energies heading in his direction, pre upgrade.

I've never said he could match Hulk force for force. In fact, all the strategies involve letting the destructive energies of the Hulk either pass through or around him.

And again, you're making the mistake of thinking Shaman Nate has to activate his powers to use them. They're always on, its like saying Hulk has to think in order to have his HF

And Nate knows Hulks abilities better than Hulk knows his.

But that showing doesn't mean he can curve any energy no matter how powerful. Could he curve the energy from Odin, or Galactus, or LT?
My point is that the energy coming from WBH is too strong for him to curve entirely.

My point is when someone decides to do something then it isn't always instaneous and thus takes time. Sure I can move my hand when I think of it but if I decide to vomit then that will take some time. Just because a being can go intangible doesn't mean they can do so instantly. It could take a split second to happen after the initial though. The process could take that long or longer.

Lastly, how can Nate affect the WBH, without bfr, even if WBH just stood there and not fought? I'm having a hard time seeing how he could even damage WBH in any way.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He goes intangible against a simultaneous attack from Daken (at melee range), and Bullseye at pretty close range:

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/3315/darkxmen003012.jpg

So its no

So this showing is what you base Nate being able to go intangible.
Well it doesn't even seem that he went intangible. I don't see any attacks going through him. Daken is too far from Nate and those arrows look like they were headed at Daken. Otherwise why not let Ares axe pass through him? Why did he have to catch it to protect himself? I have to read the story to be sure. What comic is this?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Did you see the scan where a weaker Nate was curving the shockwaves and shrapnel from an explosion around him? a feat directly applicable to this battle. He can and has reacted to explosive energies heading in his direction, pre upgrade.

I've never said he could match Hulk force for force. In fact, all the strategies involve letting the destructive energies of the Hulk either pass through or around him.

And again, you're making the mistake of thinking Shaman Nate has to activate his powers to use them. They're always on, its like saying Hulk has to think in order to have his HF

And Nate knows Hulks abilities better than Hulk knows his.

But that showing doesn't mean he can curve any energy no matter how powerful. Could he curve the energy from Odin, or Galactus, or LT?
My point is that the energy coming from WBH is too strong for him to curve entirely.

My point is when someone decides to do something then it isn't always instaneous and thus takes time. Sure I can move my hand when I think of it but if I decide to vomit then that will take some time. Just because a being can go intangible doesn't mean they can do so instantly. It could take a split second to happen after the initial though. The process could take that long or longer.

Lastly, how can Nate affect the WBH, without bfr, even if WBH just stood there and not fought? I'm having a hard time seeing how he could even damage WBH in any way.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Not sure that simple tk would work too well on wbh.... Or even at all considering that tk has been resisted via strength in the past. Nate grey has absolutely no chance of putting wbh down via power output so perhaps he can do it via something esoteric. Otherwise stalemate presuming he stays intangible the whole fight

Yah, my phone went on the fritz, hence the multiple posts.

Originally posted by h1a8
So this showing is what you base Nate being able to go intangible.

No, its him using it in battle, I had loads of others, but they were him phasing through walls and walking casually, so I thought you might quibble and say he had to concentrate hard or something. Also, its Shaman Nate Grey in those scans, and its a very recent showing, I didn't want to rely on 20 or 30 year old scans witha weaker Nate (though I HAVE used some).

Here are others:
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/6900/theuncannyxmen33515.jpg
http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/5460/xman047page11image0001.jpg

Well, you get the picture. There are other scans out there too.

Otherwise why not let Ares axe pass through him? Why did he have to catch it to protect himself?

He even explains with Ares -'But you. You are a War God. I have nothing to counteract you.'

I have to read the story to be sure. What comic is this?

Lastly, how can Nate affect the WBH, without bfr, even if WBH just stood there and not fought? I'm having a hard time seeing how he could even damage WBH in any way.

Or he could time-stop. Immobilising Hulk FTW.

Or he could time-travel (which he does when in Planck length), and change aspects of Hulk's history

Or he could BFR Hulk into space (yes, I know you said barring BFR)

Or BFR Hulk across dimensions etc.

Nate has full knowledge of Hulk, as he was told everything about WWH when he came back. He can see energy, and see everything about a person's past and future, so will know what he is capable of.

Seriously, read Dark X-men, and then come back to us.

Edit: Just read your message in the Odin WBH thread.

Here's Nate stopping time:

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/9528/cable03009.jpg
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/413/cable03011.jpg

Originally posted by Uriel005
he moves the planet away from the hulk

His lifting of Hulk is not simple TK, though. He actually reverses the gravitational field of the Earth when he does it.

Damn, was too late..

Here are some more intangibility feats, showing that he can do it, at least. This is why I wanted to show him using it in battle, because you might have quibbled that he can't do it:

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/5682/xman03514.jpg
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/558/xman2320.jpg

He can also teleport other people across dimensions (another method of BFR):
http://i.imgur.com/LLiDt.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/k4EXh.jpg

Why in the name of sweet tap dancing jesus is this thread still open?

Because H1a8 and carver are defending Hulk.

H1a8 though needs to do some homework and read up on Shaman NAte Grey, so have given him some homework.

Carver has given up (I claim yet another scalp!)

And I see less of it as debating, and more educating on both sides.

Nate reaction time of quantifiable feats lands him in the heavily hypersonic realm.

He easily plucks 10 rounds, from 4 gunman off different angles. Stop and consider that the muzzle trajectory of these weapons are around 1,700 m/s.
http://i.imgur.com/fbrRm.jpg

In terms of flight speed, he traveled from New York to Asia on a single panel.
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/3117/60171972.jpg

A teleapth having hypersonic reactions, should not come as a surprise. Marvel has gone through good lengths, in establishing that they have superior speed of thought.

Nate speed of thought>>>Hulk movements.

And Nate took on Qibiri an all out planet buster, and defeated the harvester!

Nate wins due to being more powerful and versatile!

So people try to argue h1 eh?haermm

I.....try.

I see it as less as an argument, and more teaching. He seems willing to learn, I think.