RotS Sidious -vs- Count Dooku

In the The Making of Star Wars Revenge of the Sith, George Lucas, the creator and ultimate authority regarding the Star Wars universe, responded to the question of whether Mace Windu brought a weak group of Jedi with him for the confrontation with Palpatine by replying that "one would have to be either Windu or Yoda to compete with Palpatine," and that if Anakin had suffered none of his injuries, he could have beaten the Emperor.
- The Making of Star Wars Revenge of the Sith

Recently, I came across some interesting articles, whereupon George Lucas indicated, that had Anakin decided to fight Sidious in a lightsaber duel, without his injuries, he would have beaten him.

This same Anakin could defeat Dooku as well.

So I wondered - is there any salt to the idea of Dooku being able to defeat Sidious in a lightsaber duel?

Dooku was noticably afraid to fight Sidious, but he also wanted Sidious dead in the end.

So, how afraid does Dooku have to be, really? Sidious elected to fight Windu and his comrades, largely without the aid of offense Force powers.

Does Dooku have anything to fear from Sidious in a lightsaber duel?

Who is truly superior? Who would truly survive if they duked it out?

What evidence tells you who would win?

~

Shortly before the commencement of Palpatine's plan to have himself kidnapped and have Dooku fight Anakin onboard The Invisible Hand, Dooku has a dark dream, where he sees himself falling to Skywalker.

Having had enough of Sidious and his seedy schemes, the Count decides to head to Palpatine's Office on Coruscant, where he will face and end the insidious Dark Lord, once and for all.

Managing to get into the building without detection, and making his way to Palpatine's Office - the Count confidently strides into the room to see a surprised and robed Palpatine turn to stare back at him as he walks in.

The two don't speak; silence engulfs the room.

Then, the dual hiss-snap of two red blades.

Starting Distance Apart: 10 Feet.

Palpatine and Dooku don't seek to use Offense Force powers - only Passive ones, to amp their abilities, etc.

They will engage in a strict Lightsaber Duel.

Originally posted by Rookwood
So I wondered - is there any salt to the idea of Dooku being able to defeat Sidious in a lightsaber duel?

"One would have to be either Windu or Yoda to compete with Palpatine,"

No.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"One would have to be either Windu or Yoda to compete with Palpatine,"

No.

Apparently, though, even Palpatine can't defeat a non-Injured Anakin.

This seems to put both Dooku and Sidious in the same boat.

Originally posted by Rookwood

Recently, I came across some interesting articles, whereupon George Lucas indicated, that had Anakin decided to fight Sidious in a lightsaber duel, without his injuries, he would have beaten him.

I don't suppose you have a direct quote from the article?

That is what happens though in the alternate ending to the ROTS game.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"One would have to be either Windu or Yoda to compete with Palpatine,"

No.

That quote was referring to Jedi. And it's talking about an all out fight anyway. Here I believe Rockwood is just referring to a pure fencing match.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't suppose you have a direct quote from the article?

That is what happens though in the alternate ending to the ROTS game.

I don't, but apparently, according to the guide that the article is derived from, M. Lucas said that if Anakin had suffered none of his injuries, he could have beaten Sidious.

This same uninjured-Anakin defeated Dooku, so it makes me ponder.

Originally posted by Rookwood
I don't, but apparently, according to the guide that the article is derived from, M. Lucas said that if Anakin had suffered none of his injuries, he could have beaten Sidious.

This same uninjured-Anakin defeated Dooku, so it makes me ponder.

I'm not sure if Lucas has directly stated that but it wouldn't surprise me. He did always say Anakin could have defeated him if not for his injuries. Most people assumed he was talking about Anakin's potential only, but I was never fully convinced of that.

He also said after his injuries that: "From then on he was never as strong as the Emperor,"(Rolling stones interview) implying that before his injuries he was that strong.

I always thought it would probably be a good fight (Peak ROTS Anakin vs Sidious).

But even IF Anakin could beat both Sidious and Dooku that doesn't mean Sidious and Dooku have to be equals. I really don't see Anakin defeating Sidious without Immense Difficulty.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Apparently, though, even Palpatine can't defeat a non-Injured Anakin.

This seems to put both Dooku and Sidious in the same boat.

No it doesn't. Anakin before he was injured could potentially become twice as powerful as Sidious. As of RotS though, Sidious would kick Ani's ass.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That quote was referring to Jedi. And it's talking about an all out fight anyway. Here I believe Rockwood is just referring to a pure fencing match.

Ok. No anyway.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As of RotS though, Sidious would kick Ani's ass.

I doubt he would kick his ass in a pure Saber duel. But obviously his force powers would likely prove too much for Skywalker.

But then Mace avoided a force fight and just beat Sidious outright in Sabers. So.. I guess that option is possible.

No, he would kick his ass in a saber duel as of RotS...

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
No, he would kick his ass in a saber duel as of RotS...

You think so?

In Sabers that would make Sidious >> Anakin > Dooku.

That would make too much difference in the saber prowess between Sidious and Dooku Imo.

And then of course Yoda>Sidous in sabers. So if this chain was true then there really wouldn't have been any sort of Saber fight at all between Yoda and Dooku.

Nah. I'm certain Peak ROTS Anakin vs Sidious would be a good Saber fight.

You rely heavily on A>B>C arguments it would seem.

The quote from GL stating that Anakin would be able to compete with Sidious barring his injuries is a reference to Anakin achieving his potential and overcoming him... certainly not RotS Ani.

BTW - I never said that it wouldn't be a "good fight."

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I doubt he would kick his ass in a pure Saber duel.

I don't. Sidious is faster (blitzing 3 Jedi Council Members, Windu needing to amp up to be on par with him), stronger (saberlocking Maul and Opress at the same time) and more skilled (His fight with the brothers showed excellent skill and he stalemated Mace freaking Windu) than Anakin. He is utterly above Anakin in every way and would take him without much difficulty. Stop relying on ABC's so much.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't. Sidious is faster (blitzing 3 Jedi Council Members, Windu needing to amp up to be on par with him), stronger (saberlocking Maul and Opress at the same time) and more skilled (His fight with the brothers showed excellent skill and he stalemated Mace freaking Windu) than Anakin. He is utterly above Anakin in every way and would take him without much difficulty. Stop relying on ABC's so much.

Sidious is probably faster I agree, but I don't see anything to make me believe it's by a massive amount. And no way am I going to believe he's stronger with Anakin's Cyborg arm and his massive Force reserves.

Kenobi also saberlocked Maul and Opress and also showed excellent skill against them. Anakin is said to be just as skilled as Kenobi but a lot stronger and massively larger force reserves.

So no I don't believe Sidious is better in every single way. Not by a long shot.

Sidious might have (temporarily) stalemated Mace frigging Windu but Skywalker overpowered Count frigging Dooku by a noticeable margin.

End of the day Skywalker defeated the most powerful opponent he faced which was Count Dooku. So I don't really get where this assumed gap comes in between Sidious's and Skywalker's Saber Prowess.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai

The quote from GL stating that Anakin would be able to compete with Sidious barring his injuries is a reference to Anakin achieving his potential and overcoming him... certainly not RotS Ani.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove either way tbh. Lucas has said a few different things. He's said OT Vader is 80% as powerful as Sidious and he's said that same Vader "has lost a lot of power in the force" comparing him to ROTS Anakin.

He's also said "From then on he wasn't as strong as the Emperor, more like Darth Maul or Count Dooku,"

That seems to imply before his injuries he was that strong.

Point being he's not exactly been clear on the subject. But a level of parity has been implied.

And as for all his unusable potential, people quickly forget his feat on Mortis, where he clearly did use his full potential. You can argue that was just a mortis thing, but he did it. And the Son and Daughter also had access to the amp available on Mortis.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Sidious is probably faster I agree, but I don't see anything to make me believe it's by a massive amount.

'Probably?' You think Anakin could do what Sidious did? You think Anakin is faster than Mace Windu?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And no way am I going to believe he's stronger with Anakin's Cyborg arm and his massive Force reserves.

Lol, Anakin isn't automatically stronger just because he has a cyborg arm or because he has large Force reserves. Sidious held off Savage Oppress with one freaking hand. You know, the guy who threw Dooku into a wall the second he tried to block his attacks?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Kenobi also saberlocked Maul and Opress

For 3 seconds.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and also showed excellent skill against them.

Kenobi showed obvious desperation against them and they were hampered by the envirnment. Sidious kicked their asses in a open space without one of them having a bad knee while grinning up a storm.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Sidious might have (temporarily) stalemated Mace frigging Windu but Skywalker overpowered Count frigging Dooku by a noticeable margin.

End of the day Skywalker defeated the most powerful opponent he faced which was Count Dooku. So I don't really get where this assumed gap comes in between Sidious's and Skywalker's Saber Prowess

Anakin beat Dooku through sheer strength. That obviously won't work on Sidious. Besides which, Windu > Dooku.

Originally posted by Nephthys
'Probably?' You think Anakin could do what Sidious did? You think Anakin is faster than Mace Windu?

I don't think the difference is as large as you make out.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, Anakin isn't automatically stronger just because he has a cyborg arm or because he has large Force reserves. Sidious held off Savage Oppress with one freaking hand. You know, the guy who threw Dooku into a wall the second he tried to block his attacks?

So did Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Nephthys
For 3 seconds.

So imagine how much longer could Anakin do it for?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Kenobi showed obvious desperation against them and they were hampered by the envirnment. Sidious kicked their asses in a open space without one of them having a bad knee while grinning up a storm.

They wern't hampered at all for the Saber fight. The closed environment probably limited Opress using his not very targetted Force waves but that's about it.

If anything the environment favored the brothers in the Saber portion of the fight. Obi-Wan was fighting 2 physical beasts in a small cave stuck in between them. He had no room to give ground.

He best them through superior Saber skills.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anakin beat Dooku through sheer strength. That obviously won't work on Sidious. Besides which, Windu > Dooku.

Anakin's got massive amounts of strength as Dooku noted. He was at least as fast as Dooku. And you admitted yourself recently that his Saber skill is seriously understated on these boards.

Ok Windu > Dooku. So what? Anakin > Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't think the difference is as large as you make out.

Unless you can back it up, I'm not too concerned with what you believe.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So did Obi-Wan.

No he didn't.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So imagine how much longer could Anakin do it for?

I'd rather go by what he actually does. Anakin failed to overpower or even overly tire Obi-Wan in their duel.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
They wern't hampered at all for the Saber fight. The closed environment probably limited Opress using his not very targetted Force waves but that's about it.

If anything the environment favored the brothers in the Saber portion of the fight. Obi-Wan was fighting 2 physical beasts in a small cave stuck in between them. He had no room to give ground.

He best them through superior Saber skills.

Tempest has provided evidence from the show director that they were, so erm, yes they were?

No he didn't. He got lucky. They were clearly going to win until Savage's knee went.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anakin's got massive amounts of strength as Dooku noted. He was at least as fast as Dooku. And you admitted yourself recently that his Saber skill is seriously understated on these boards.

Ok Windu > Dooku. So what? Anakin > Dooku.

None of that makes him on Sidious' level.

And Sidious is above Windu, hence why the latter needed to elevate himself up to Sidious' level with Vaapad. Your argument still hinges on ABC logic though. Recall that even heavily boosted by a darkside nexus Dooku was no match for Yoda. Sidious obviously was.

*Shadow Conspiracy, Neph, not director.

Meh.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Unless you can back it up, I'm not too concerned with what you believe.

And likewise I have no interest in what you chose to believe without you backing it up. Saying he blitzed whoever is not proof.

Anakin defeated Dooku who went toe to toe with Yoda. So I don't see any reason to believe Sidious's speed is just too much for Anakin.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No he didn't.

Oh yes he did.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd rather go by what he actually does. Anakin failed to overpower or even overly tire Obi-Wan in their duel.

Are you really going to argue Anakin isn't substantially stronger than Kenobi?

The only reason Anakin wasn't able to overpower Obi-Wan is because Obi-Wan kept giving ground so that wouldn't happen. Doesn't change the fact that Anakin is just as skilled as Obi-Wan but Stronger.

Not to mention you have no idea how many seconds Sidious held off the 2 brothers for. Until you do it's a moot point. Considering Anakin is stronger than Obi-Wan, and yet even Obi-Wan did it, it's a moot point anyway.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Tempest has provided evidence from the show director that they were, so erm, yes they were?

LOL The director said Obi-Wan won that fight because he was properly focused this time and because he's a very skilled swordsman.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No he didn't. He got lucky. They were clearly going to win until Savage's knee went.

How exactly is smashing his knee in getting lucky?

Originally posted by Nephthys
None of that makes him on Sidious' level.

I think after overpowering Dooku the way he did we should at least consider the possibility. I never stated it as definite. Unlike you who has. Which means it's your job to prove it. Which I'm afraid you haven't done.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And Sidious is above Windu, hence why the latter needed to elevate himself up to Sidious' level with Vaapad. Your argument still hinges on ABC logic though. Recall that even heavily boosted by a darkside nexus Dooku was no match for Yoda. Sidious obviously was.

We have no idea how much of a boost Dooku was getting on Vjun. And the fight was basically like in AOTC anyway, just that he seemed to have held his own for longer this time.

As for the ABC logic, it's all we have to go on really. What exactly are you going on that makes you so certain Sidious would kick Anakin's butt in a Saber fight?

I'd rather go by what he actually does. Anakin failed to overpower or even overly tire Obi-Wan in their duel.

Tempest has provided evidence from the show director that they were, so erm, yes they were?

"Sabers hissed, their blades striking sparks from the walls, leaving half-melted scrapes and bubbling burns in their wake."

In movie not a signle time anyone's lightsaber touched walls. The only exception was when Kenobi's lightsaber touched cable.

"[i]The two Sith maneuvered to pin Obi-Wan against the wall- but there was so little room in the corridor that they got in each other's way. Savage charged in to strike, leaving his left arm exposed for a split second. It was all the time Obi-Wan needed. He lunged and sliced the Zabrak's yellow-and-black arm off at the shoulder.[/]"

In book brothers got in each other's way and as result Opress made silly move. In movie brothers surrounded Kenobi without any problem, then were attacking from opposite sides without getting in each other's way and Opress lost arm in completely different circumstances.

Imho author had very limited info of the fight and wrote it before episode came out. To be fare no one would expect Kenobi to utilize kicks so effectively and doing so much acrobatics.

And Sidious is above Windu, hence why the latter needed to elevate himself up to Sidious' level with Vaapad.