People are forgetting to quote most of my agruments here.
Obese people less cut out for survival as well I would say because they can't move, get up, etc. One more difference is that, even if it's not the obese person's fault, obese people have issues with gluttony, and anorexic people get satiated far too easily, the same amount of food makes them sick, they will loose more weight from gorging themselves because of how their metabolism is set. When a fat person gorgeous his or herself nothing changes, when they try cutting calories, that's when they gain weight because of how their metabolism is set. I have more empathy towards obese people for that reason, I would rather no one have to suffer from being fat than from lacking the ability to have fat.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Yes, I'm aware that diet can be a noun. If you eat an ideal healthy amount of food every day of your life you'll die one day.Demonstrating that a high sodium diet is "lethal" or even reduces life span is very difficult for a number of reasons (for example high sodium diets are usually unhealthy in other ways so extracting the effects of sodium by regression is basically impossible). Perhaps you mean that people have found health issues linked to high sodium intake?
So you're saying a high sodium diet and a diet with high sodium intake are two different things? Sorry, just a bit confused.
In what other ways are these diets unhealthy, do you mean that they're normally also high in fat etc, and so the affects of sodium haven't been studied alone?
Originally posted by silver_tears
Just for argument's sake, for those people who support this idea, how do you decide someone is fat? Is it strictly by the numbers on the scale? Is it through common ideals of aesthetics?
First of all I don't agree because destruction of confidence isn't a positive motivator for many people. I'll answer your question as it pertains to when and why I decided to lose weight.
I knew people who were fat and had girlfriends and were thought of as attractive, I knew fat people who were good at sports. However, I also noticed that having this flab hanging off my body really pissed me off...that's because I don't find it attractive at all. This distracted my attention, made everything more difficult. For me, it was a matter of being uncomfortable with who I was. At what point am I comfortable with my phsyique? When I see myself in a picture and a video and I look like a stud, an appearance defined totally by me.
Originally posted by Raisen
Not all. Some people have genuine health problems they can't overcome. However, that percentage is ridiculously small. Vast majority of fat people are lazy/gluttonous/weak willed.
No, they aren't.
"Fat" doesn't just cover those people that ride around on scooters and eat mcdonalds every day.
If you want to say "morbidly obese" then those people, sure.
Originally posted by Kharhmah
[list]
[*]A lot of different medications can make you gain weight. Birth control pills and antidepressants, for example.
[*]Being deficient in some vits & mins can change your metabolism making it harder to lose weight.
[*]Age also slows metabolism therefore you'd have to try adjust your diet/fitness routine accordingly. However some people may find changes difficult to cope with at first.
[*]Musculoskeletal conditions may affect weight gain as sufferers may not be able to be as active as they would like.
[*]Hypothyroidism, Cushing's syndrome, Polycystic ovarian syndrome. All cause weight gain.
[*]People who suffer from Prader–Willi syndrome have, among a very long list of other symptoms, a constant feeling of hunger. Therefore they eat excessively to compensate, obviously, this leads to weight gain. This one is especially significant, as they are not eating out of greed. All they want is to stop feeling hungry. Although PWS is rare, there is no outright cure.
[*]etc.
[/list]
In order:
1. Adjust your diet and activity rates, accordingly.
2. Improve your diet and activity rates.
3. Then a premature death awaits them if they cannot make that adjustment.
4. Adjust diet and activity, accordingly. There are tons of exercise programs even for the disabled.
5. Their diets and activity rates should all be adjusted.
6. They should adjust their diet and activity rates, accordingly. Refusing to moderate your diet is not an excuse.
Originally posted by Kharhmah
Before you start attempting to shame someone into losing weight you might want to consider why they are overweight in the first place.
Some people are overweight through no fault of their own and others have no right to shame them for something they cant control.
& to be honest all those who generalise and stereotype need a good kick in the shin.
It is almost impossible to say a person is morbidly obese through no fault of their own but I stop short of an absolute statement because there is most like an exception out there, somewhere. I would agree with you, however, that some people are overweight, which is not the same thing as morbidly obese, through no fault of their own. For example, a person on AAS (Androgenic Anabolic Steroids) can gain as much as 25 pounds in a month with no change to their diet. If they are using those legally (such as a prescription for hypogonadism), they could go from healthy to overweight in no time. However, they should be careful and keep in contact with their doctor while going through that cycle: their doctor should have also communicated the side-effects of such a drug, as well. Their doctor should make recommendations on diet or exercise and/or refer them to a specialist if they lack the expertise to make adequate recommendations.
Also, they do have a right to shame other people: it is called freedom of speech. It exists in most modern nations. However, it has to stop before it reaches the level of legally defined harassment.
Originally posted by silver_tears
...and mandatory gym classes in high school before you demand edgier anti-fat advertising.
I considered mandatory physical activity for all adults. But it offends my freedom of choice sensibilities.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I believe anyone who wishes for more harassment and assault should be harassed and assaulted more in their daily life.
I could be ignorant of where "assault" came into play in this discussion...but I don't think anyone, even the douche researcher who made the harassment recommendation, suggested assault.
Originally posted by silver_tears
Really appreciate the thought-provoking response though, especially the condescending thumbs up 👆
😆 😆
I would say that ultra-thin people (the really thin ones) are gawked and scoffed at even more than fat people, in America.
Originally posted by silver_tears
Just for argument's sake, for those people who support this idea, how do you decide someone is fat? Is it strictly by the numbers on the scale? Is it through common ideals of aesthetics?
Body-fat percentage is a pretty good measure. But it cannot be boiled down to one number unless that number is a composite of many different measures.
Let's call it a health index. 😄
There are things like cholesterol, blood pressure, heart rate, etc. Too many things go into what constitutes being "too fat."
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Where does this information come from? I like sources for my prior probabilities.
You're treating this like a comic book. You want scans?
YOU BECOME FAT WHEN YOU CONSUME MORE CALORIES THAN YOU EXPEND. I allowed a small margin for those who are in too much pain to exercise, or those on medications which may slow down their metabolism. EITHER WAY, THESE PEOPLE ARE CONSUMING MORE CALORIES THAN THEY ARE EXPENDING. So, what can you attribute that to?? Gluttony and selfishness............for eating too much. Laziness........for not excersing to make up the difference?
Do you believe most people are fat for reasons out of their control?
Who do you want to blame for people being fat? You don't hold the individual responsible for what they shove into their mouths? Where does this road end, when do we hold people accountable for their actions?
Are we to blame the criminal's behavior on society? bad teachers? parents? poverty? Or do we hold the criminal responsible for his own behavior?
Do we blame rape on the attacker himself being raped in prior years? Do we blame television or adult video producers? Or do we hold the rapist responsible for his actions?
Originally posted by Raisen
You're treating this like a comic book. You want scans?
I like evidence.
If you would like to debate as though you were less mature and reasonable than an angry comic book nerd you are, of course, free to do so but you're not going to sway me with kindergarten rhetoric.
Originally posted by Raisen
Do you believe most people are fat for reasons out of their control?
No, but you seem very certain that they only a very small portion are. What actual reasons do you base this on? Typing in all caps, for example, doesn't support your argument.
Originally posted by Raisen
Who do you want to blame for people being fat?
I'm not sure its clear we have to blame anyone. So far you haven't done anything to change my opinion.
Originally posted by -Pr-
No, they aren't."Fat" doesn't just cover those people that ride around on scooters and eat mcdonalds every day.
If you want to say "morbidly obese" then those people, sure.
http://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20100210/percentage-of-overweight-obese-americans-swells
3% of Americans are morbidly obese.
More than half are obese( and there is a distinction made between obese and overweight, obese being more severe)
There is a correlation between exercise and obesity level.
You don't even necessarily need to diet. If you just got up and exercised............many would be in a much healthier condition. I eat fast food every day. I was fat. I joined the military and started running. lost weight and still ate like crap.
I'm now in the best shape of my life at 30. I got abs. I train for five boxing rounds a day. I weigh 200 lbs and can do 10 pull ups with 70 lbs of weight hanging around my waist. I do dips with 140 lbs of weight around my waist. Run a 5:30 mile. I still eat like crap. I do all this while pursuing my Masters, raising a child, and working 40 + hours a week.
You know what really motivated me? I cancelled cable and I don't watch t.v. YEP, I THINK LAZINESS IS A REAL FACTOR HERE.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I like evidence.If you would like to debate as though you were less mature and reasonable than an angry comic book nerd you are, of course, free to do so but you're not going to sway me with kindergarten rhetoric.
No, but you seem very certain that they only a very small portion are. What actual reasons do you base this on? Typing in all caps, for example, doesn't support your argument.
I'm not sure its clear we have to blame anyone. So far you haven't done anything to change my opinion.
Why are so many more people obese now compared to 70 years ago? Everybody contracted a new fat virus? Or is it television and crap food? Yet we have ultra in shape people running around. I'd say nature is weeding out the strong from the weak. The weak and lazy choose to sit around watching televison and getting fat.
Originally posted by Raisen
http://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20100210/percentage-of-overweight-obese-americans-swells3% of Americans are morbidly obese.
More than half are obese( and there is a distinction made between obese and overweight, obese being more severe)
There is a correlation between exercise and obesity level.
You don't even necessarily need to diet. If you just got up and exercised............many would be in a much healthier condition. I eat fast food every day. I was fat. I joined the military and started running. lost weight and still ate like crap.
I'm now in the best shape of my life at 30. I got abs. I train for five boxing rounds a day. I weigh 200 lbs and can do 10 pull ups with 70 lbs of weight hanging around my waist. I do dips with 140 lbs of weight around my waist. Run a 5:30 mile. I still eat like crap. I do all this while pursuing my Masters, raising a child, and working 40 + hours a week.
You know what really motivated me? I cancelled cable and I don't watch t.v. YEP, I THINK LAZINESS IS A REAL FACTOR HERE.
I know guys who work forty hours a week on a construction site, and play almost four hours worth of football (soccer to clarify) during that same week.
Yet they're still technically overweight because they don't eat the healthiest food in the world. Hell, I WAS one of those guys.
No, laziness isn't always a factor. It just depends on what your definition of "fat" really is.
Originally posted by -Pr-
I know guys who work forty hours a week on a construction site, and play almost four hours worth of football (soccer to clarify) during that same week.Yet they're still technically overweight because they don't eat the healthiest food in the world. Hell, I WAS one of those guys.
No, laziness isn't always a factor. It just depends on what your definition of "fat" really is.
We both know I never said that laziness is always a factor. Also, playing four hours of football in a week is not nearly enough exercise, no matter how intensely you play.
Anyway, I had a few too many last night. GOT TO GO TO THE GYM NOW
🙂
Originally posted by Raisen
We both know I never said that laziness is always a factor. Also, playing four hours of football in a week is not nearly enough exercise, no matter how intensely you play.Anyway, I had a few too many last night. GOT TO GO TO THE GYM NOW
🙂
ermm
Yeah, because all that construction work is easy peasy.
Originally posted by Raisen
EITHER WAY, THESE PEOPLE ARE CONSUMING MORE CALORIES THAN THEY ARE EXPENDING. So, what can you attribute that to?? Gluttony and selfishness............for eating too much. Laziness........for not excersing to make up the difference?
I think you could blame at least a small portion (ha! PUN!) on ignorance.
How many people do you know that say the following in anyway: "Well, damn, my resting metabolic rate is not enough to outpace my daily Caloric intake. I am going to have to increase my activity, slightly, so I can lose this fat I've gained and then taper back the activity once I reach a healthy percentage." The only people that think like that are fitness-minded people and health professionals. They comprise...what...less than 2% of the population? CNN says only 3 out of 10 people exercise regularly. I bet you out of those 3, waaaay less than 1 of them is as health conscience enough as to account for a daily caloric expenditure.
Actually increasing the amount of calories proportionate to caloric intake is a ridiculous underpinning unless you get a bunch of paper to solve for math each day...and then you're not taking into account hormones.
What works, especially sense diets and exercise routines cannot be scheduled for normal people with sporadic work schedules; is simply strengthening every single muscle group.
A stronger muscle is heavier and larger, and requires more energy to maintain. Only thing consistently that has worked for me.
Originally posted by Raisen
We both know I never said that laziness is always a factor. Also, playing four hours of football in a week is not nearly enough exercise, no matter how intensely you play.
Anyway, Calories in vs Calories out is the not-so-secret formula of weight management. If you can't/won't exercise, eat less. It may be annoying for newcomers, but turn the packaging over on the foods you eat. Count the calories. Make sure what you eat in a day is less than your maintenance calories*. It's not rocket science.
As for the actual thread topic, I don't know if fat shaming is what society "needs." I don't believe it's "right" though. Some people feel it is unfortunate, but people are allowed to be as fat as they want to be. I see no point in making people feel shitty about it.
*Online calculators aren't perfect, but they are a good place to start if you want to know your daily calorie requirements. Be honest when you input your info. Places like the bodybuilding.com forums are good for more info/advice. Check the "Losing Fat" sub-forum.
Overweight people cannot reduce calories without increasing fat storing hormones. Their metabolisms are set in stone. If by the off chance they do manage to lose quite a bit of weight, they will have such high quantities of fat storing hormones like estrogen that if they eat just a little bit they can take a lot of fat from that. And you need food to survive. I noticed that as I ate less and less the weight loss began to slow down, it halted until I pretty much had to go on the water diet Omega Vision mention to lose any more.
Now I just shit it all out and the weight can go down a lot faster.