Originally posted by Lestov16
I understand the possibilities of this. One would basically see the world as a clay and reshape it, but I would like a character who can create their won universes, where they are unbound by physics or even logic. They could create worlds where 2/0=fish, and other mathematical impossibilities. Are such impossibilities within the wavefunction?
I feel like your committing a rather damaging error in the way you're approaching this. Not every question has an answer. If you demand an answer long enough when there isn't one eventually you'll just get a wrong answer. Right now no one knows how to create any kind of universe. The answer might be within the mathematics of wave function or it might not be. The absolute truth of the matter is that we don't know (and that's okay).
Originally posted by Symmetric ChaosBasically, the many-worlds spin fascinates the hell out of me, especially for its inherent infinity-from-simplicity. I also enjoy the "psi" coincidence between parapsych and quantum mechanics.
Under many-worlds your actually not any more accurate than anyone else, you're just ignoring your mistakes.
My main point really is to highlight how separate and apparently distinct "powers" may be best interpreted through a single, common, underlying mechanism, something (in this case) nonNewtonian. Also, these abilities (at least as I understand it) postulate a reality where consciousness, not matter, is the final reality, which raises its own host of issues.
As for what other posters have been asking / stating regarding the limits of this ability...first of all, Colonel North brought up a good point: if I tap, eg, my wavefunction to make all my atoms vibrate in the same direction at the same time (ta-daa: flight), do I have to "touch" every atom, or does manipulating the collective wavefunction suffice?
Accordingly, I postulated that influencing simpler wavefunctions to do simple things (eg, bending EM waves around me) is much easier than turning a sofa into a table (working with more complex wavefunctions), or locally changing the laws of physics. Inherent in this is that, the challenge to influencing stuff is determined by the complexity of the wavefunction and the remoteness of the probability being looked for / tapped. Newtonian factors (eg, mass, distance) are relevant only to the extent that the psiconscious being thinks they are.
Ultimately, since this ability is fictional, it is up to the writer to determine the parameters for a given story. Eg, in one backstory, I state it takes about 200,000 years to become "godlike."
Let's suppose one had control over the most complex wavefunction of all, the universal wavefunction. What would be the limit to the universe they could create.
What I mean is how limited would the universe be, in terms of physics, mathematics, and logic. Is the universal wavefunction:
- all possible universes that have the set initial conditions of the Big Bang(thus every possible subatomic configuration that we could conceive of and thus every object that could physically exist in our set-physical law universe),
-is it all possible universes with all possible physical laws that could have been created by the set initial conditions of the Big Bang,
-is it all possible universe with all possible physical laws of all possible initial conditions (and thus all possible physical existence),
-is it all possible and impossible universes (thus all possible information patterns)
-or something beyond this (which the human mind can not conceive of)
Which one of these best describes the universal wave function? I'm thinking only the first, but I must be sure.
Originally posted by Lestov16Good questions, and I can answer only in the context of my character/story universe.
Let's suppose one had control over the most complex wavefunction of all, the universal wavefunction. What would be the limit to the universe they could create.What I mean is how limited would the universe be, in terms of physics, mathematics, and logic. Is the universal wavefunction:
- all possible universes that have the set initial conditions of the Big Bang(thus every possible subatomic configuration that we could conceive of and thus every object that could physically exist in our set-physical law universe),
-is it all possible universes with all possible physical laws that could have been created by the set initial conditions of the Big Bang,
-is it all possible universe with all possible physical laws of all possible initial conditions (and thus all possible physical existence),
-is it all possible and impossible universes (thus all possible information patterns)
-or something beyond this (which the human mind can not conceive of)
Which one of these best describes the universal wave function? I'm thinking only the first, but I must be sure.
As it so happens, in 200,000 years, a character would be able to access the universe's wavefunction: specifically, the wavefunction associated with our particular Hubble volume. In this context, the Psi God can manipulate all the fundamental forces, as well as the spacetime continuum, down to the Planck scale. This would allow, eg, recalibrating physical laws (at least locally). Energy and matter manip would all fall under here.
Limitations? If there is a multiverse with an infinitude of Hubble volumes -- each with its own wavefunction -- I would think a Psi God would not automatically be able to do much in these other spacetimes.
Again, these would be writer-determined parameters.
Also, I don't see this as an Omega Point in human evolution, let's say. Since this psiconscious-able universe is ultimately founded on Consciousness, not Matter, I would 'argue' that archetypal forces ("divine," to use a loaded worded) would supercede psiconsciousness.
I could go on and on with this. But the main points are: to think about "psychic" or superpower abilities in a new light, and that the informed writer is as much an "expert" as anyone else when it comes to where we can go with this.
Omega Point in human evolution.
Human evolution? Human evolution has already stopped. Then comes the evolution of silicon based life forms after a technological Singularity spawns human level AI. Then of psiconscious waves, then they inherit the Omega Point of Intellectual Evolution that humans almost never even played a role in, we will have played a fraction of a fraction of a role by creating AI that's smarter than us.
Originally posted by Mindship
As for what other posters have been asking / stating regarding the limits of this ability...first of all, Colonel North brought up a good point: if I tap, eg, my wavefunction to make all my atoms vibrate in the same direction at the same time (ta-daa: flight), do I have to "touch" every atom, or does manipulating the collective wavefunction suffice?
Is velocity actually defined by the wave function? I know position is.
If we had a list of things that the wave function defines then we'd have a much better starting point. The only things I've been able to find say "all physical properties" which is vague or "all measurable properties" which is vague and exactly the kind of thing quantum woo is built from (even if we can measure "awesomeness" the wave function will not contain information about it).
Wikipedia mentions repeatedly that one of Schrodinger's assumptions was that conservation of energy holds true, which suggests that controlling the wave function doesn't let you get energy from nothing. I suspect that other conservation laws are assumed as well.
The wave function is just a mathematical construct. Controlling the collective wave function shouldn't be any different from controlling each particle's wave function. Similarly adding 5 is not different from adding 1 five times.
Originally posted by Mindship
This would allow, eg, recalibrating physical laws (at least locally).
I'm fairly certain this much isn't true. You could make the universe act like the laws of physics were different but once you stopped deliberately controlling things it would go back to normal. Like holding a rock in my hand doesn't mean I've recalibrating the local laws of gravity, they still apply.
Originally posted by DolosOrion's Arm? Very cool site.
Human evolution? Human evolution has already stopped. Then comes the evolution of silicon based life forms after a technological Singularity spawns human level AI.
Originally posted by Symmetric ChaosThere is some debate about whether the wavefunction is just a mathematical construct or if it is a real entity.
If we had a list of things that the wave function defines then we'd have a much better starting point. The only things I've been able to find say "all physical properties" which is vague or "all measurable properties" which is vague and exactly the kind of thing quantum woo is built from (even if we can measure "awesomeness" the wave function will not contain information about it).Wikipedia mentions repeatedly that one of Schrodinger's assumptions was that conservation of energy holds true, which suggests that controlling the wave function doesn't let you get energy from nothing. I suspect that other conservation laws are assumed as well.
The wave function is just a mathematical construct. Controlling the collective wave function shouldn't be any different from controlling each particle's wave function. Similarly adding 5 is not different from adding 1 five times.
http://phys.org/news/2012-05-paper-controversy-nature-quantum-function.html
Obviously, for my fictional purposes, I prefer the latter. As for manipulating probabilities regarding position, momentum, etc, my understanding (limited that it be) is that the probability state must be internally consistent with regard to how it all adds up. It's not an "anything goes" situation...especially if you consider some of the probabilities involved. Case in point...
"10^10^42
According to Crandall [158], mathematician John Littlewood of Cambridge calculated the probability of a mouse surviving on the surface of the sun for a period of one week, based on the liklihood of a suitable number of random fluctuations (brownian motion or quantum fluctuations) to give it a suitable environment for that period of time. This is like Kasner and Newman's thought experiment ([134] pp. 24-25) in which one imagines the odds of a book jumping up into your hand (which they estimate as "between 1/googol and 1/googolplex"😉."
Originally posted by Symmetric ChaosI've tended to interpret such an ability as, essentially, making a pocket universe, or a subspace which harbors the set of recalibrated constants. Would it require constant attention? Upon close examination, perhaps (although, haven't there been superheroes who have been able to set-up independent/standing-wave forcefields?). This could be another limitation, like internal consistency. But then, a being with such consciousness could split-off a subfunction to keep it going, yada yada yada...
I'm fairly certain this much isn't true. You could make the universe act like the laws of physics were different but once you stopped deliberately controlling things it would go back to normal. Like holding a rock in my hand doesn't mean I've recalibrating the local laws of gravity, they still apply.
Good story ideas though. Limitations ---> problems, even for a psi god.
Originally posted by Mindship
Orion's Arm? Very cool site.
You assume that's my entire background?
That website is ridicolous. Anything that tries to predict the future is ridiculous, but the website claims that our civilization will progress according to the Kardashev scale. Why?? Why would we waste effort creating ways to harness all of earth energy, all of the solar system's energy, all of the galaxy's energy, when complexity and miniturization of technologies or technology like quantum manipulating mechanisms allow us to be Yahweh, Doctor Manhattan, The Dark Phoenix, Molecule Man, The Silver Surfer??
In a thousand years, with yoctomechanisms, we would be stylized avatars "pulling remote probabilities from complex wavefunctions" to reshape our realities, or at least I would.
That would be recreational, we would be compelled to flex our creative muscles, but we would also be compelled to study and improve our knowledge. Who knows what kind of weird extra-multi-versal-abstracts, or para-brane-phenomona a civilization of those beings would be delving into.
Originally posted by DolosI figured you were at least familiar with it.
You assume that's my entire background?
Originally posted by DolosI like Orion's Arm, though I find the participants too mired in backstory to produce good fiction. But I like their dedication to "hard" scifi...which may seem odd, given the psiconscious thing. To that end, I like to exploit Clarke's third law.
That website is ridicolous. Anything that tries to predict the future is ridiculous, but the website claims that our civilization will progress according to the Kardashev scale. Why?? Why would we waste effort creating ways to harness all of earth energy, all of the solar system's energy, all of the galaxy's energy, when complexity and miniturization of technologies or technology like quantum manipulating mechanisms allow us to be Yahweh, Doctor Manhattan, The Dark Phoenix, Molecule Man, The Silver Surfer??In a thousand years, with yoctomechanisms, we would be stylized avatars "pulling remote probabilities from complex wavefunctions" to reshape our realities, or at least I would.
That would be recreational, we would be compelled to flex our creative muscles, but we would also be compelled to study and improve our knowledge. Who knows what kind of weird extra-multi-versal-abstracts, or para-brane-phenomona a civilization of those beings would be delving into.
Yeah, overall I definitely agree with you about the future. The only thing predictable about it is that it is unpredictable. Or to paraphrase Sagan, it's not going to look like anything we are currently imagining.
I know how Sheldon Cooper feels when he realizes all the great future stuff he's going to miss.
The scientist Sheldon would come across Ray Kurzweil's work, and think:
"Maybe I can live forever."
There's a documentary called "Transcendant Man". In it the prodigious child-prodigy of engineering and physics Ray Kurzweil explains how "nanobots" could one day replace all human cells as said human lives and breathes. Transforming a human being into immortal technology. If BBT's Sheldon had this done to him, he could "ride the transcendental evolution of intelligence" right to the "omega point", and infinitely beyond that point to the omega point of whatever sentient-like phenomena intelligence is capable of creating or ascending to, and infinite progress beyond that.
Now talk about remote probabilities.
Originally posted by Mindship
^ I should watch the TBBT reruns more closely. I don't recall Kurzweil ever being mentioned on the show...but he should've been, at least a few times already.
While I understand how you could mistakenly interpret that Ray Kurzweil was mentioned from my response, that is not what I was saying.
I was saying if Sheldon Cooper had looked into Ray Kurzweil's work, and what he plans for the future, he may have made that distinction...as I have.
A lot of people wouldn't want this evolution, they wouldn't want to give up their humanity. Rationalizing that it would go against the will of "God". That's why there may really be a holy war to end holy wars.
I truly believe God is an imagined figure.
My belief, my religion, is that we created the idea of God, now we could create him in actuality...in the way I've explained in this thread. We could create the Gods and Godesses by each of us becoming one ourselves. I believe perhaps some such God somewhere created the existence we know for such a purpose. Out of a random act of benevolence, one of our future beings might be compelled to do the same after a few omega points of transcendence.
Originally posted by Lestov16
Just so I am clear, superposition manipulation=
-alteration of subatomic particle's position in space=
-rearrangement of subatomic particles into any physically possible configuration=
-matter/energy manipulation
You can do more than matter/energy manipulation with that. You could do more with matter/energy manipulation than one might think. In fact, science doesn't know how much you could really do with this power. It goes into dimensional or spectral manipulations.
While we lack the understanding to know for sure, we possess the ability to imagine. That's what we're doing, isn't it?
Originally posted by DolosI know. It just occurred to me though that his name would've fit right in with the other scientists that have been mentioned or have appeared on the show.
While I understand how you could mistakenly interpret that Ray Kurzweil was mentioned from my response, that is not what I was saying.
Originally posted by DolosAt these levels, Clarke's third law would be in full swing.
A lot of people wouldn't want this evolution, they wouldn't want to give up their humanity. Rationalizing that it would go against the will of "God". That's why there may really be a holy war to end holy wars.I truly believe God is an imagined figure.
My belief, my religion, is that we created the idea of God, now we could create him in actuality...in the way I've explained in this thread. We could create the Gods and Godesses by each of us becoming one ourselves. I believe perhaps some such God somewhere created the existence we know for such a purpose. Out of a random act of benevolence, one of our future beings might be compelled to do the same after a few omega points of transcendence.
Originally posted by Lestov16I would say that the above is possible, at least within our speculative context. But based on the sound input of what others have been saying here, I would also say there may well be limitations, eg, all "end products" would have to be "internally (mathematically?) consistent," and some feats may require a constant expenditure of attention.
Just so I am clear, superposition manipulation=
-alteration of subatomic particle's position in space=
-rearrangement of subatomic particles into any physically possible configuration=
-matter/energy manipulation