As kris's quotes highlight, Morrison is far from the first person to have these thoughts. I've encountered the idea before as well. But the packaging of it in such a clever concept/comic is certainly cool, and a more poignant reminder of the media's influence than nearly any other presentation of the idea I've seen.
Yeah. Morrison's always had a penchant for writing these types of stories. A lot of people overlooked the metatextual character(ie. "Super-Doomsday"😉 from his most recent run on Action Comics:
^^That right there is the same basic concept that powered Mandrakk, Thought-Robot, and even The Gentry: A thought that gets bigger and bigger the more you think it.
But like you said, the way Morrsion is able to deliver these mind-boggling concepts in literary format is absolutely brilliant.
couple things--first, in the second-to-last panel, who is YOU, ultra is referring to? whose EYE is it? and WHY is his eye bloodshot? anyone? it's fine at the end of the story, before he travel back to the beginning, so....what happened?
http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/sclements1/media/1_1.jpg.html
secondly, can anyone name all the characters in the jury in this scene? some are obvious, but others? not so much....
http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/sclements1/media/2_1.jpg.html
then there is this:
http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/sclements1/media/3_1.jpg.html
which 'first scene'? does he mean this is where he came in after the opening scene? doesn't make sense because after the opening scene he was pretty f'd... after the first scene where intellectron attacked him? doesn't make sense either since he went back to the beginning to be made young again... so....what first scene is he talking about??
and lastly--any guesses why the font/narrator boxes changed shape and colour?
http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/sclements1/media/4_1.jpg.html
is this merely to represent the idea that intellectron is 'infecting' him, and through him, by extension 'us'? as he fades out in that last panel, we know he hasn't died, but rather returned to the start of the book. but from the start, where does he go? we seem to see him devoured by the....plant life in the opening couple pages, so i guess his story DOES end (though not before he adds a NOT to the cover of the book....)
anyway, after rereading, i like the issue a lot, (still liked a couple of the other issues more though) but i find that i feel i am missing some key revelation or something, and i don't like that feeling. still trying to get a feel for the chronological aspect of the series as well. seems to be no real this-came-first moment. i love the ideas he is playing with, (it really is fascinating stuff) but so far it reminds me a little of inception, the movie. sometimes things can be TOO clever. maybe i'm still waiting for that singular a-ha moment that ties things together...? that's it. for now. 🙂
Originally posted by leonidas"You" is referring to us; the readers. Ultra is warning us not to read the comic, as it will only serve to empower The Gentry and unleash them upon us.
couple things--first, in the second-to-last panel, who is YOU, ultra is referring to? whose EYE is it? and WHY is his eye bloodshot? anyone? it's fine at the end of the story, before he travel back to the beginning, so....what happened?http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/sclements1/media/1_1.jpg.html
Dunno why his eye became bloodshot. Presumably it has something to do with the Oblivion Machine infecting/corrupting him. /shrug
Originally posted by leonidasThe only ones who stood out to me are Darkseid and Hitler.
secondly, can anyone name all the characters in the jury in this scene? some are obvious, but others? not so much....http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/sclements1/media/2_1.jpg.html
Originally posted by leonidasHe's talking about his first actual scene in the book, prior to encountering Intellectron. This scene:
then there is this:http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/sclements1/media/3_1.jpg.html
which 'first scene'? does he mean this is where he came in after the opening scene? doesn't make sense because after the opening scene he was pretty f'd... after the first scene where intellectron attacked him? doesn't make sense either since he went back to the beginning to be made young again... so....what first scene is he talking about??
He couldn't have been talking about the bloodshot eye-scene, because that technically hadn't happened to him yet. The first few pages are paradoxical in that regard.
Originally posted by leonidasThat part had/has me puzzled too. I think, like you said, it is a representation of him being 'erased'. That is, after all, why Ultra Comics was originally designed by the scientists of Earth Prime: to destroy The Gentry by rendering them back down into pure text--to 'eat' them, essentially:
and lastly--any guesses why the font/narrator boxes changed shape and colour?http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/sclements1/media/4_1.jpg.html
is this merely to represent the idea that intellectron is 'infecting' him, and through him, by extension 'us'? as he fades out in that last panel, we know he hasn't died, but rather returned to the start of the book.
However, The Gentry ultimately flipped the trap/comic back on Ultra(and subsequently, us.) Instead of it being a weapon for us to use against them, it became a weapon for them to use against us: The Oblivion Machine.
Originally posted by leonidasIt doesn't really end, per se. The Oblivion Machine/Ultra Comics is stuck in a perpetual loop.
but from the start, where does he go? we seem to see him devoured by the....plant life in the opening couple pages, so i guess his story DOES end (though not before he adds a NOT to the cover of the book....)
If you recall, Quantum Superman made note of Ultra Comics' unique loop-like 'structure' back in the Pax Americana issue:
Originally posted by leonidasThe final issue(Multiversity #2) should tidy things up a bit. However, Morrison has made it pretty clear that some aspects of the story will remain ambiguous... So keep that in mind. 😛
anyway, after rereading, i like the issue a lot, (still liked a couple of the other issues more though) but i find that i feel i am missing some key revelation or something, and i don't like that feeling. still trying to get a feel for the chronological aspect of the series as well. seems to be no real this-came-first moment. i love the ideas he is playing with, (it really is fascinating stuff) but so far it reminds me a little of inception, the movie. sometimes things can be TOO clever. maybe i'm still waiting for that singular a-ha moment that ties things together...? that's it. for now. 🙂
Originally posted by Galan007
"You" is referring to us; the readers. Ultra is warning us not to read the comic, as it will only serve to empower The Gentry and unleash them upon us.Dunno why his eye became bloodshot. Presumably it has something to do with the Oblivion Machine infecting/corrupting him. /shrug
hmm, i'm not so sure about that. or at least it doesn't quite fit for me. he was talking to us all along, so why suddenly cut himself off the way he did and seem so surprised? "YOU! It was YOUR eye all along!"
no reason to reference us since WE were the ones he was talking to already. and he seemed very afraid. could he have spotted the one-handed leader? not sure, but i don't think he was talking about us....
He's talking about his first actual scene in the book, prior to encountering Intellectron. This scene:
http://i.imgur.com/328FhbX.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/EvDZDmB.jpgHe couldn't have been talking about the bloodshot eye-scene, because that technically hadn't happened to him yet. The first few pages are paradoxical in that regard.
that i'll buy. should have figured that myself. 👆
That part had/has me puzzled too. I think, like you said, it is a representation of him being 'erased'.
maybe less erased and more corrupted/infected? i find the bloodshot eye interesting only because of the scan i showed first--it was YOUR eye all along. could it be intellectron he's referencing? it really strikes me as an odd bit of dialogue, and an important one that i'm not getting. it just doesn't seem right for him to be talking to us in that bit....
It doesn't really end, per se. The Oblivion Machine/Ultra Comics is stuck in a perpetual loop.If you recall, Quantum Superman made note of Ultra Comics' unique loop-like 'structure' back in the Pax Americana issue:
The final issue(Multiversity #2) should tidy things up a bit. However, Morrison has made it pretty clear that some aspects of the story will remain ambiguous... So keep that in mind. 😛 [/B]
the pages supes mentioned were interesting--they were the ones that took him from the opening of that scene, to the end, the very bit we were talking about. lol some nice planning there. 👆
intellectron also throws some doubt on the idea that ultra really DID make it back to the beginning. he tells us, the readers, that ultra is only DREAMING. if intellectron DID capture ultra at the end (which seems likely) maybe ultra IS just dreaming at the start. even assuming he is dreaming doesn't help answer my first question though. 🙁
ftr, maybe you ARE right about who he is talking, but....it doesn't feel right to me. damn, i found this issue puzzling! lol good talk though. 👆
Originally posted by leonidasOh, sorry. Just realized you were talking about these specific panels/statements:
hmm, i'm not so sure about that. or at least it doesn't quite fit for me. he was talking to us all along, so why suddenly cut himself off the way he did and seem so surprised? [b]"YOU! It was YOUR eye all along!"[/B]
I assume he is talking directly to Intellectron there, given that his statement refers to an eye in the singular sense--which is what Intellectron has--before warning us NOT to turn the page.
...But when we inevitably do turn the page, who do we see? None other than Intellectron(in disguise) presumably reading Ultra Comics:
http://i.imgur.com/uG2Xpm3.jpg
I assume he's reading Ultra Comics in that scene, because he tells us to disregard/ignore Ultra's warning on the previous page as nothing but a dream. Obviously it was far more than a dream, though, because the entire comic represents the Oblivion Machine--and the Oblivion Machine is what fuels The Gentry.
Originally posted by leonidasYeah, that. I think that because Ultra Comics was flipped back onto Ultra himself(and subsequently us as readers), he was being rendered down into pure text, instead of the intended target: Intellectron.
maybe less erased and more corrupted/infected?
Originally posted by leonidasAs mentioned above: Intellectron only wanted us to think Ultra was dreaming when he gave that warning, because he didn't want readers to get scared and stop reading the issue. If we stopped reading, The Gentry wouldn't be able to invade/corrupt/infect our minds and propagate outward from there.
intellectron also throws some doubt on the idea that ultra really DID make it back to the beginning. he tells us, the readers, that ultra is only DREAMING.
Originally posted by leonidasAbsolutely. Love talking about this stuff. 👆
lol good talk though. 👆
Originally posted by Galan007
Oh, sorry. Just realized you were talking about these specific panels/statements:I assume he is talking directly to Intellectron there, given that his statement refers to an eye in the singular sense--which is what Intellectron has--before warning us NOT to turn the page.
that was what i thought at first too, but now....maybe i'm looking too closely at it. he went back to the beginning so he already KNEW it was intellectron. seems odd he reacted the way he did to something he knew. but...i can't think of anything more likely. also, what the hell is all around him? is that the horde gentry? if so, seems weird that the story didn't end there. it would only be 'continued' in the sense that the story was already written, if you understand. he could well have been destroyed in the first 2 pages, but, since it WAS written, the story would just repeat....
...But when we inevitably do turn the page, who do we see? None other than Intellectron(in disguise) presumably reading Ultra Comics:
http://i.imgur.com/uG2Xpm3.jpg
I assume he's reading Ultra Comics in that scene, because he tells us to disregard/ignore Ultra's warning on the previous page as nothing but a dream. Obviously it was far more than a dream, though, because the entire comic represents the Oblivion Machine--and the Oblivion Machine is what fuels The Gentry.
you're right, but it could still have been a dream. it would have the same effect. readers didn't KNOW he was dreaming, ultra wouldn't know. i mean it even seems LIKELY he was dreaming as i think about it as it appears that intellectron was at least partly responsible for bringing ultra into being in the first place. i assume all the parts that have intellectron narrating were NOT intended to be there when the issue was first 'written'. rather, intellectron infected and took it over FROM THE START. he was actually laughing at ultra almost even after his warning at the beginning. i think ultra was meant to THINK he escaped to the beginning--but intellectron had already infected the book as a whole. i could see where he may well have been captured at the end and really did just dream the beginning bit. shrug
As mentioned above: Intellectron only wanted us to think Ultra was dreaming when he gave that warning, because he didn't want readers to get scared and stop reading the issue. If we stopped reading, The Gentry wouldn't be able to invade/corrupt/infect our minds and propagate outward from there.
lol maybe, but it's paradoxical. he would already have known what ultra was trying to do. he even dared readers to stop reading himself. seriously, this was a crazy a$$ issue. lol.... fun stuff.
Originally posted by leonidasTrue, but Ultra wouldn't have known that Intellectron appeared at the very beginning of the issue, until he skipped back to the beginning from the end, if that makes sense. So he wouldn't have figured out that it was a trap from the get-go until that very moment. Paradocks!
that was what i thought at first too, but now....maybe i'm looking too closely at it. he went back to the beginning so he already KNEW it was intellectron. seems odd he reacted the way he did to something he knew. but...i can't think of anything more likely. also, what the hell is all around him? is that the horde gentry? if so, seems weird that the story didn't end there. it would only be 'continued' in the sense that the story was already written, if you understand. he could well have been destroyed in the first 2 pages, but, since it WAS written, the story would just repeat....
Originally posted by leonidasYeah, it's certainly possible. However, Intellectron still needed us to read the book in order to fully 'activate' the Oblivion Machine. Hence why he tried to have us disregard Ultra's warning--had we stopped reading there, The Gentry couldn't have fully infected/corrupted our minds.
you're right, but it could still have been a dream. it would have the same effect. readers didn't KNOW he was dreaming, ultra wouldn't know. i mean it even seems LIKELY he was dreaming as i think about it as it appears that intellectron was at least partly responsible for bringing ultra into being in the first place. i assume all the parts that have intellectron narrating were NOT intended to be there when the issue was first 'written'. rather, intellectron infected and took it over FROM THE START. he was actually laughing at ultra almost even after his warning at the beginning. i think ultra was meant to THINK he escaped to the beginning--but intellectron had already infected the book as a whole. i could see where he may well have been captured at the end and really did just dream the beginning bit. shrug
Regardless, Ultra definitely wasn't dreaming during those first few pages, imo. He definitely skipped to the beginning of the book from the end of it, because he placed the "NOT" warning on its cover. We know he did this after his battle with Intellectron, because his eye is bloodshot on the cover:
http://i.imgur.com/31DKCID.jpg
Anywho, the cover for the final issue of Multiversity has been leaked, and Ultra is on it(alongside a character who appears to be Morrison himself):
http://i.imgur.com/EFcB1w4.jpg
So maybe...just maybe...a few of these questions will be answered. 👆
Originally posted by leonidas👆
lol maybe, but it's paradoxical. he would already have known what ultra was trying to do. he even dared readers to stop reading himself. seriously, this was a crazy a$$ issue. lol.... fun stuff.
It's a paradox that evidently curves through 8 different dimensions, as Quantum Supes noted. No wonder it's hard for us 3-D'ers to figure out. 😛
A few more interesting comments from Morrison regarding Ultra Comics and The Gentry...
Paste: "So in this issue we’ve finally come full circle in The Multiversity project, with the cursed comic shown in the first chapter, Multiversity #1. This comic is referred to as being infected and haunted. What makes it so?"
Morrison: "There’s a very bad idea hidden inside the comic book, and the bad idea will be revealed if you continue to read it, so you may not want to know this. The bad idea is ultimately not that you stop reading the story, but the story dies, which by implication means that you one day will also die. The new horror that’s revealed is the Oblivion Machine in Ultra Comics; consuming comics is devouring the hours and the minutes of your lives, and you’re actually being vampirized by your entertainment media. That’s the ghost in Ultra Comics, that you’re being devoured by the story that you’re consuming, because you could be out there meeting the girl of your dreams or flying out a microlight. It’s about the things that we consume, the pictures that we love to watch."
______________________________________________
Paste: "The Multiversity #2 comes out next month, concluding the story. I think The Gentry has been my favorite aspect of the book—I know each member is an extreme of various villain archetypes, but they also seem to represent something so much more primal. Are we going to discover more about these characters and what separates them from a character like Darkseid?"
Morrison: "Oh yeah, you definitely find out a lot more about them, but at the same time I think why they work is because everyone can read them in their own way, and make them represent what they want them to represent. I want to keep that little bit of mystery. The finale pretty much explains who they are, and even in Ultra Comics it’s explained that these are really bad ideas. They’re demon ideas and we incubate them and they form. We can feel them, but we don’t quite know how to display them and what they’re doing. It’s been portrayed that our imaginative space has become degraded. Where once we had Star Trek now we have The Walking Dead. We see our civilization as something that’s basically, ultimately doomed. And maybe a generation ago we saw our civilization as something that would naturally be carried into the stars, and have this fantastic utopian future. So Multiversity is all about that, and Ultra Comics is specifically about the idea that we have impoverished a neighborhood, and once you’ve impoverished a neighborhood then you come in to gentrify it. You’ve made it very comfortable for the monsters to cultivate."
