Darth Sidious (one lightsaber) -vs- Savage Opress and Maul

Originally posted by Visage
I don't think DP will be doing that anytime soon.

That's funny coming from you and your buddy who have both been banned multiple times but keep making sock accounts because your so desperate for attention on these boards.

Also your sock buddy is as funny as he is sad and hypocritical. He tells me to stop e-stalking him when many many of his comments are clearly made to attack me.

Originally posted by Arhael
What you are saying is true.

I practiced with Shinai myself and tried with two Shinai as well.

When practiced, we agreed that one strictly attacks, the other - defends, then swap. That way we could achieve flashy SW like performance because, if both attack, fight ends within seconds.

When defending against two Shinai, it required me to constantly move backward like Dooku in AotC because it is mostly impossible to block both sabers simultaniously, dodging is required.

Also, Shinai are too heavy for one handed grip, so speed and strength were suffering a lot.

Against two opponents I certainly would prefer one sword and rely on foot movement, so opponents stumble against each other unable to attack at the same time.

Using two sabers against multiple opponents in real life is unsuitable. One handed style, while lacks strength, it offers much more movement freedom and strong attacks can still be deflected sideways but it requires a lot of focus and skill. But with two sabers your concentration is split between two hands, it is, also, very hard to focus on both opponents and respond to their attacks correctly.

Force users on the other hand are guided by the Force, which makes it much easier for them to split concentration. Moreover, they don't even need to see attack to counter it, so it is not as big problem, if one of the opponents is behind. And that's why comparison with real life doesn't work in this case.

I don't know if you've seen the last episode of the season. But (SPOILERS AHEAD) even Skywalker resorts to using 2 Sabers to fight off a dual saber wielding Bariss.

So what are the troll's explanations now? That Kenobi, Sidious and Skywalker were all just showing off?!

If people still can't see that multiple Sabers are more useful when faced against mutiple sabers then they're either supremely arrogant to give up the issue or just plain out dense.

Oh and nice Force feats for Skywalker

Spoiler:
Force choking Ventress and Force Slamming Bariss

Clearly duel wielding aids when fighting against two sabers, but it is not a necessity.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Clearly duel wielding aids when fighting against two sabers, but it is not a necessity.

If it aids then it is a factor.

But at least we we've finally come to some sort of agreement on the issue.

Originally posted by Arhael
What you are saying is true.
I practiced with Shinai myself and tried with two Shinai as well.
When practiced, we agreed that one strictly attacks, the other - defends, then swap. That way we could achieve flashy SW like performance because, if both attack, fight ends within seconds.
When defending against two Shinai, it required me to constantly move backward like Dooku in AotC because it is mostly impossible to block both sabers simultaniously, dodging is required.

I can tell you're a first-year student.

Actually, defending against two swords, especially when they're the same length, is very easy.

The next time you spar your friend and he uses two Shinai:

When he delivers a cut or strike, move your Shinai against his in a clockwise motion, from the outside of his blade, inward - and cross his attacking blade over into the path of his other Shinai.

From there, drag your blade into a (follow-up) cut that will target his hand, and step off to the side, dragging the blade across his hip, as you step out.

That will interfere with the movements of his other weapon, defend against his striking-sword, disable that sword-hand, and deliver an incapacitating cut to his torso.

It's a very easy defense you will learn in your first few years.

Originally posted by Arhael

Also, Shinai are too heavy for one handed grip, so speed and strength were suffering a lot.

Actually, Shinai are quite light, and especially easy to use in a one-handed grip.

The training sword you might have a lot of trouble wielding one-handed, would be the Bokken.

Originally posted by Arhael

Against two opponents I certainly would prefer one sword and rely on foot movement, so opponents stumble against each other unable to attack at the same time.

That's the general idea.

It's not about meeting force-with-force, and in that way, it's very much like classical unarmed combat.

Originally posted by Arhael

Using two sabers against multiple opponents in real life is unsuitable. One handed style, while lacks strength, it offers much more movement freedom and strong attacks can still be deflected sideways but it requires a lot of focus and skill.

You'll find that in Japanese swordsmanship, when two blades are used in conventional fashion, they will always be Katana and Wakizashi-length.

With the Wakizashi being used to intercept attacks, and further guard the central line.

You can train to have dexterity in both hands, so that your movements will be balanced and fluid, but you will always have the disadvantage of only having half the potential strength to defend against the force of your opponents two-handed strikes over time.

Originally posted by Arhael

But with two sabers your concentration is split between two hands, it is, also, very hard to focus on both opponents and respond to their attacks correctly.

Your only focus needs to be to position yourself where their attacks interfere with each other, and using the principles of interceptive-attack, you can utilize one of the blades of your opponent to be beneficial to your defense.

Two blades can be useful - not for added offense - but for added defense of the central line.

And your body would naturally develop a kinesthetic-awareness that accompanied your use of two weapons.

But obviously you don't need them for two opponents - and as we all know, that's something that fantasy movies are usually rife with, because they're fantasy movies. 😄

Originally posted by Arhael

Force users on the other hand are guided by the Force, which makes it much easier for them to split concentration. Moreover, they don't even need to see attack to counter it, so it is not as big problem, if one of the opponents is behind. And that's why comparison with real life doesn't work in this case.

No; Force users don't have a perfect sense of Precog, and at times they will fail to detect some attacks or activity, and sometimes even if they do detect it, they're too slow to react.

In real life, visual-acuity is an all-important aspect of a martial artist's functioning, and although a Jedi/Sith relies less on this, they still have to rely on it at times.

Essentially, they are bound to the same technical principles that all martial artists rely upon.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's funny coming from you and your buddy who have both been banned multiple times but keep making sock accounts because your so desperate for attention on these boards.
Also your sock buddy is as funny as he is sad and hypocritical. He tells me to stop e-stalking him when many many of his comments are clearly made to attack me.

Having a Lover's Quarrel with Sidious 66 again? 😮‍💨

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

If people still can't see that multiple Sabers are more useful when faced against mutiple sabers then they're either supremely arrogant to give up the issue or just plain out dense.

You'd have to be dense to assume something about a subject you know nothing about.

Utilizing two weapons in either hand effectively cuts your total strength in half, making it more difficult to weather hard strikes from your opponent.

With one sword/saber, you can simply cross your enemies offending-blade into the path of his other blade, and from there make a simple cut to the offending-wrist, which will temporarily incapacitate your opponent, and create an opening.

Also, keep in mind, the effect of his strength being cut in half by the use of two weapons in both hands also applies, so when you execute this parrying technique with both hands, you'll overpower his wrist.

Yoda didn't attempt to fight Sidious with multiple sabers, nor did Sidious when he fought Yoda, nor even Mace Windu when he sought to fight Sidious.

Fantasy elements in children's shows and some movies see the usage of double-wielding as flashy and exotic-looking, when in reality it has little to no practical application in most conventional duels.

If you became a student of the sword, you would learn this.

Originally posted by Visage

You'd have to be dense to assume something about a subject you know nothing about.

Actually you've shown very little knowledge of the subject.. As Arhael has pointed SW fights do have differences. The weight of Lightsabers makes it more akin to stick fighting in which 2 weapons are preferred.

And the coordination aspect is guided by the force.

Originally posted by Visage
Utilizing two weapons in either hand effectively cuts your total strength in half, making it more difficult to weather hard strikes from your opponent.

And yet some of the most effective defending against powerful 2 handed strikes has been done using just 1 hand.

Dooku against Anakin. Maul against Opress. Kenobi against both Maul and Opress.

Try again Sock. And try actually using references to SW. Which I know is difficult for you with your limited knowledge and hatred of Higher Canon material.

I don't think the one arm/two arm argument for strength flies. I don't think their strength comes mainly from their muscles because then Sidious would be overwhelmed as an old man. They are clearly augmented by the force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Actually you've shown very little knowledge of the subject.. As Arhael has pointed SW fights do have differences. The weight of Lightsabers makes it more akin to stick fighting in which 2 weapons are preferred.
And the coordination aspect is guided by the force.

Stick fighting is nothing like fighting with a sword, Young One. 😮‍💨

And the lightsaber, being "sharp all over" akin to a sword, has nothing to do with being like a stick and is completely akin to a sword, and you would know this, were you actually educated in the subject.

And again, aside from fantasy movies, one sword is conventionally preferred; not two.

And in the words of Obi-wan Kenobi, the Force only guides the coordination partially; with the rest being guided by the swordsman themselves.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And yet some of the most effective defending against powerful 2 handed strikes has been done using just 1 hand.

Dooku against Anakin.

He lost partially because of that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Maul against Opress.

Fantasy elements in a kids show.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Kenobi against both Maul and Opress.

Again, fantasy elements in a children's show. 😮‍💨

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Try again Sock. And try actually using references to SW. Which I know is difficult for you with your limited knowledge and hatred of Higher Canon material.

Still butthurt? 😮‍💨

You don't take being anally-screwed in arguments very well; try lotion, it would help you. 😄

I rely on actual swordsmanship, as did Nick Gillard, when putting the actual lightsaber Forms together.

You still have much to learn, Child.

Enjoy your childhood - you only get to enjoy it once. 😮‍💨

Originally posted by Visage
Stick fighting is nothing like fighting with a sword, Young One. 😮‍💨

And the lightsaber, being "sharp all over" akin to a sword, has nothing to do with being like a stick and is completely akin to a sword, and you would know this, were you actually educated in the subject.

And again, aside from fantasy movies, one sword is conventionally preferred; not two.

Lightsabers are very different to swords. With a Sword, or even a very long stick, it's difficult to balance it and handle the weight with one hand.

A Lightsaber only requires the hilt to be balanced and only the handle has any weight(which is negligible for a Jedi).

So stick fighting with lighter, easier to balance sticks is actually the better performance comparison for wielding 2.

Originally posted by Visage
And in the words of Obi-wan Kenobi, the Force only guides the coordination partially; with the rest being guided by the swordsman themselves.

The Force does guide them. When they block so many blaster bolts from different directions, clearly guiding 2 different hands to block a Saber striked each is not something that's suddenly so difficult.

Originally posted by Visage
He lost partially because of that.

Nah. That was only an issue when he was fighting off Kenobi at the same time. He fended off Anakin's 2 handed power strikes in "Crisis on Naboo" until Anakin kicked him over the stairs.

Maul won against Opress like that whose a Physical beast.

Kenobi was fending both Maul and Opress of one handed when he was on the defense.

Originally posted by Visage
Fantasy elements in a kids show.

Again, fantasy elements in a children's show. 😮‍💨

Still butthurt? 😮‍💨

You don't take being anally-screwed in arguments very well; try lotion, it would help you. 😄

I rely on actual swordsmanship, as did Nick Gillard, when putting the actual lightsaber Forms together.

You still have much to learn, Child.

Enjoy your childhood - you only get to enjoy it once. 😮‍💨

Exactly. You have no respect for higher canon. So don't disturb the grown ups when they're having such conversations.

Originally posted by Visage

I rely on actual swordsmanship, as did Nick Gillard, when putting the actual lightsaber Forms together.

Oh and as for your Nick Gillard reference, that's fine with me. He rated Sith Anakin, Mace Windu, Yoda and Sidious all being On Par in Saber Prowess 💃

Originally posted by Visage
Having a Lover's Quarrel with Sidious 66 again? 😮‍💨

You'd have to be dense to assume something about a subject you know nothing about.

Utilizing two weapons in either hand effectively cuts your total strength in half, making it more difficult to weather hard strikes from your opponent.

With one sword/saber, you can simply cross your enemies offending-blade into the path of his other blade, and from there make a simple cut to the offending-wrist, which will temporarily incapacitate your opponent, and create an opening.

Also, keep in mind, the effect of his strength being cut in half by the use of two weapons in both hands also applies, so when you execute this parrying technique with both hands, you'll overpower his wrist.

Yoda didn't attempt to fight Sidious with multiple sabers, nor did Sidious when he fought Yoda, nor even Mace Windu when he sought to fight Sidious.

Fantasy elements in children's shows and some movies see the usage of double-wielding as flashy and exotic-looking, when in reality it has little to no practical application in most conventional duels.

If you became a student of the sword, you would learn this.

Lol at using real world applications in the discussion of fictional lore. 😆

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Lol at using real world applications in the discussion of fictional lore. 😆

She doesn't know the difference in what's real and what isn't. She has imaginary body parts that she argues is real.

Mizukage_Yoda
Lol at using real world applications in the discussion of fictional lore.

RookwoodVisage's tendency to draw bewildering conclusions from source material notwithstanding, I'm pretty sure it's equally silly to throw "real world applications" out the window entirely. It's our only frame of reference.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
RookwoodVisage's tendency to draw bewildering conclusions from source material notwithstanding, I'm pretty sure it's equally silly to throw "real world applications" out the window entirely. It's our only frame of reference.

Saying that Jar'Kai is ineffective because it doesn't work in real life is bull. While inspired by traditional swordsmanship, lightsaber duels are completely different because:
1. They are weightless
2. Physical power can be amplified by the force.
3. Force powers.

Jar'Kai has been proven multiple times to be effective. So yes real life applications in a world where the combatants can move mountains with their minds is a ridiculous notion.

Read again: I said entirely. The bottom line is that all of us (yes, you, too) interpret Star Wars events and feats from the lens of a real world perspective. Maul can move a starship, Starkiller can move a Destroyer. Which feat is greater? The destroyer, because its mass and weight are exponentially bigger. We make that judgment because of an understanding of real world physics.

My entire point is that one should not throw the baby out with the bathwater. At this point, Jar'Kai is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Saying that Jar'Kai is ineffective because it doesn't work in real life is bull. While inspired by traditional swordsmanship, lightsaber duels are completely different because:
1. They are weightless
2. Physical power can be amplified by the force.
3. Force powers.

Jar'Kai has been proven multiple times to be effective. So yes real life applications in a world where the combatants can move mountains with their minds is a ridiculous notion.

My conclusions are in general based on real life sword work. Yet, I still evaluate Jarkai as more effective against multiple opponents. If you look at my post above, I explained "why" it is not effective in real life. It's just in this case real life examples don't apply in the same way.

Rookwood's right in the sense that you lose strength when utilizing two blades. You also lose balance.

But, using two swords or a double-bladed one does give you a lot more blows per swing; hence, more damage and destruction per strike. And if used correctly you can overwhelm your opponent much more easily.

Although, I believe that this logic cannot be applied to SW. Maybe when analysing an object's weight or its mass, etc. it is correct to use real life physics as a viable comparrison, but not when it comes to lightsaber duels. There are many more fictional factors to be considered which cannot be compared to real life in any way.

Agreed. We see the great ability displayed by some masters/skilled users of the two blade style throughout the series. That said, we also see capable duelists using a single saber to defend themselves and defeat them in some cases. Every technique and weapon set has an opportunity cost. More strikes per second at the lost of strength in each blow, even when augmented by the Force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lightsabers are very different to swords. With a Sword, or even a very long stick, it's difficult to balance it and handle the weight with one hand.

Sticks don't cut, or open the opponent up, as lightsabers and swords do.

A lightsaber can be thought of as perhaps a Katana, or the lighter rapier.

But aside from it's weight, functionally, it has no difference to a sword.

But it is cute to hear you talking about things you know nothing about. 😛

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

A Lightsaber only requires the hilt to be balanced and only the handle has any weight(which is negligible for a Jedi).

So stick fighting with lighter, easier to balance sticks is actually the better performance comparison for wielding 2.

I can tell you don't know anything of either discipline. 😮‍💨

A lightsaber typically has a blade of around three Feet in length.

In Kenjustu, you don't conventionally pair up two swords that exceed (or even come close to) 24 inches, of which the lightsaber blade is much longer than that.

Doing so causes a gap to form over the central line, that the two long blades cannot protect effectively, because their length makes them interfere with one another spacially.

In conventional stick fighting, you'll notice the practioners always use short sticks, not long ones.

Even still, the cadence of movements is different than that used for swordsmanship.

So we can see why George Lucas hired a swordsman to design the lightsaber forms and not a master of stick-fighting, which is a different discipline altogether.

The fact that the lightsaber Forms were organically created around that of real-life sword arts, reinforces their nature functionally as swords, and obviously not sticks.

So, if a Jedi did hypothetically use stick-fighting with wielding lightsabers - they wouldn't use regular lightsabers (for the reasons listed above) - they would use Shotos, and the overall visual effect would look noticeably different.

So a lightsaber and it's arts, are nothing like a stick or those arts.

It is a sword, and obviously built around the arts of swordsmanship.

And if you were a student of either the sword or stick, you would know this. 😮‍💨

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

The Force does guide them. When they block so many blaster bolts from different directions, clearly guiding 2 different hands to block a Saber striked each is not something that's suddenly so difficult.

Read up again, Boy.

I never said it didn't. 😮‍💨

I harkened back to the words of Jedi Master Obi-wan Kenobi, who told Luke during his first lightsaber-lesson, that the Force only guides you partially.
With the rest of the coordination being guided on that part of the swordsman.

Pay attention, Young One. 😛

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Nah. That was only an issue when he was fighting off Kenobi at the same time.

That was an issue throughout the entire fight for Dooku; he couldn't handle the power of Anakin's Djem So, as it was a weakness for his Makashi.

So it makes sense that his one-handed parries caused his wrist to buckle when it was struck. 😎

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

He fended off Anakin's 2 handed power strikes in "Crisis on Naboo" until Anakin kicked him over the stairs.
Maul won against Opress like that whose a Physical beast.
Kenobi was fending both Maul and Opress of one handed when he was on the defense.

And I'm sure all the toddlers enjoyed seeing those duels. 😛

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Exactly. You have no respect for higher canon. So don't disturb the grown ups when they're having such conversations.

Son, when you can go to the bathroom without needing a diaper (I know you do; your mum has told me so in private conversations) then you'll be a grown up. 😛

And you really need to get over the shafting I gave you, in regards to referencing from Genndy's Clone Wars, which I know you despise.

It's Canon, so rub some aloe vera over your mutilated and burned sphincter, and move on. 😆

It's like I did to your ass, what Obi-wan did to Anakin at Mustafar. 😆 😆 😆