Originally posted by Visage
-snip-
And in real Swordsmanship, what I said, stands.
This isn't real swordsmanship. It's fictional swordsmanship with real world roots.
Your knowledge of real world swordsmanship does not somehow trump canon source material that states that Jar'Kai is best suited for dealing with multiple opponents/ blades.
Originally posted by Arhael
You said that two sabers give more blows per swing. Equally it gives more blocks. But in real life it is ineffective because human can't concentrate on both sabers well. It still works against single opponent as you can use one to block and another to attack. However, it is still useless, when you need to split concentration on both opponents. However, in SW guided by the Force they can concentrate much better on multiple opponent. So the advantage of blocking more is well applicable in SW against multiple opponents.
That's not the reason why, Arhael. 😛
It has nothing to do with wielding two sabers together - over time, the ability to naturally and effortlessly wield the two weapons becomes second-hand nature; pre-ingrained instinct.
It has to do with the fact that when both blades are as long as they are, and equal length, they obstruct each other's capability to guard a gap in the central line - and all it takes is an experienced swordsman with one blade, to easily pass a cut or thrust into it.
That's why two long blades are not used conventionally in real life, and a long sword and short sword is used, instead.
As long as the two lightsabers are solid, they'll have this problem, and the fatal flaw everyone who is experienced in swordsmanship knows about.
Originally posted by Visage
That's not the reason why, Arhael. 😛It has nothing to do with wielding two sabers together - over time, the ability to naturally and effortlessly wield the two weapons becomes second-hand nature; pre-ingrained instinct.
It has to do with the fact that when both blades are as long as they are, and equal length, they obstruct each other's capability to guard a gap in the central line - and all it takes is an experienced swordsman with one blade, to easily pass a cut or thrust into it.
That's why two long blades are not used conventionally in real life, and a long sword and short sword is used, instead.
As long as the two lightsabers are solid, they'll have this problem, and the fatal flaw everyone who is experienced in swordsmanship knows about.
This is my initial opinion before research:
I can't agree that this weakness is real factor. Whatever weakness a style has, techniques can be invented to compensate for it or overcome entirely. It's like Makashi that lacks kinetic energy making it difficult to block attacks. Yet, its superior mobility allows to deflect attacks sideways and even use opponent's strength against them.
This is my opinion after research:
I still can't agree with the weakness you stated. Maybe it is the case in some specific style(s) but there is so many styles and techniques that it simply cannot be the case every time.
Moreover, the style with two equal length swords does exist, although, not very popular. I found a source, where sword+dagger and two-swords are compared and two-sword style is specifically stated to give much better blocking:
"Two Swords implies that you are wielding two swords of equal length. This not only gives you the advantage of multiple attacks at the same time, but it also allows for much better blocking than with only one weapon".
Here is the link:
http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Boffer/Guide-Florentine.html
Originally posted by ArhaelMoreover, the style with two equal length swords does exist, although, not very popular. I found a source, where sword+dagger and two-swords are compared and two-sword style is specifically stated to give much better blocking:
"Two Swords implies that you are wielding two swords of equal length. This not only gives you the advantage of multiple attacks at the same time, but it also allows for much better blocking than with only one weapon".Here is the link:
http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Boffer/Guide-Florentine.html
Well that's that then.
Dual Sword fighting has real life proof that it's more effective for defending and attacking.
The disadvantages of weight and concentrating on 2 different blades will hardly effect a force wielder whose actions are force guided and carrying lightsabers whose blades are weightless.
Plus TCW has made it clear it's more useful in reference to SW.
There's no point in questioning this anymore. The only thing to question is how much of a difference it makes. But it clearly does make a difference (however small or large).
But LOL It's all obviously stupid. I mean why would weapons used make any kind of difference to a Fight? Fisto, Kenobi, Maul, Sidious and Skywalker were obviously all just trying to look Cool!
Originally posted by Arhael
That's an interesting info, which made me do some research.This is my initial opinion before research:
I can't agree that this weakness is real factor. Whatever weakness a style has, techniques can be invented to compensate for it or overcome entirely. It's like Makashi that lacks kinetic energy making it difficult to block attacks. Yet, its superior mobility allows to deflect attacks sideways and even use opponent's strength against them.
This is my opinion after research:
I still can't agree with the weakness you stated. Maybe it is the case in some specific style(s) but there is so many styles and techniques that it simply cannot be the case every time.
Moreover, the style with two equal length swords does exist, although, not very popular. I found a source, where sword+dagger and two-swords are compared and two-sword style is specifically stated to give much better blocking:
"Two Swords implies that you are wielding two swords of equal length. This not only gives you the advantage of multiple attacks at the same time, but it also allows for much better blocking than with only one weapon".Here is the link:
http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Boffer/Guide-Florentine.html
Is this LARPing shit? 😆
From the very same website:
The term 'boffer' refers to a contact weapon (swords, spears, clubs, arrows, hammers, etc.) that is made from light weight materials and padded with foam to prevent injury. Here is a picture of some boffer weapons.
Boffering is a contact sport and because of this it is not entirely painless. It is possible to get a bruise or welt if you are playing too rough. However, with properly padded weapons, there is very little chance of injury. The pain in boffering is about equal to a pillow fight. Other sports, such as football, baseball, or hockey, are more dangerous than boffer fighting. So if you can play those games, you should be able to handle boffering with ease.
😆
Anyway..
Back in the day, the most popular form of using two swords, was still using a rapier and a shorter sword (which would go in line with the Japanese technical understanding of using the Katana and Wakizashi).
So, long sword, and short sword.
Using two rapiers that were the same length were rarely ever utilized in serious combat; never found their way onto any battlefields and were generally considered to be nothing more than a curiosity by most swordsmen.
Which means that unlike the sword/shortsword combo, the case of two long blades was nothing more than a curiosity.
And understandably so.
- You have to understand just why dueling with a rapier and a side-sword or a dagger was so popular; because it was effective and practical.
Dueling with two long blades leaves gaps in the all-important central-line exposed - and when you use a Wakizashi, or a parrying-dagger, or a shortsword - that gap can be covered and protected.
Not to mention it gives that great edge in interceptive-defense.
So using two 3-foot long blades at the same time, would get you killed against an experienced swordsman.
Using a lightsaber and Shoto however, could give you an edge.
As you saw with that silly website, double-rapier fencing is highly popular with re-enactment groups, LARPers (Live-Action-Role-Play) and stage-fighting organizations, for the use of fictional fencing in plays and movies.
It looks neat, but would get you killed against someone who knows what he's doing. 😛
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well that's that then.
Not so much, 'O ye of little brains. 😛
Go read what I posted to Arhael.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But LOL It's all obviously stupid. I mean why would weapons used make any kind of difference to a Fight? Fisto, Kenobi, Maul, Sidious and Skywalker were obviously all just trying to look Cool!
Why don't you go ask some 5-year olds for their opinion? 😆
Originally posted by VisageBack in the day, the most popular form of using two swords, was still using a rapier and a shorter sword (which would go in line with the Japanese technical understanding of using the Katana and Wakizashi).
So, long sword, and short sword.
Yes which has been explained in the website, the lethality of that form is the dagger would have forks that could catch the Opponents Sword. That's what made it so lethal. A Shoto doesn't have that advantage.
Anyway we're not even comparing Dual Sabers of different lengths.
We're comparing Dual Sabers to a single one..
In SW it's clearly proved more useful wielding 2.
Originally posted by Visage
Using two rapiers that were the same length were rarely ever utilized in serious combat; never found their way onto any battlefields and were generally considered to be nothing more than a curiosity by most swordsmen.
Because of the weight which Lightsabers don't have. I mean jeez imagine backin the day trying to wield a heavy sword in each hand.
Originally posted by VisageWhy don't you go ask some 5-year olds for their opinion? 😆
I really don't need to when I have you here.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes which has been explained in the foam website, the lethality of that form is the dagger would have forks that could catch the Opponents Sword. That's what made it so lethal.
A sword/dagger combination was lethal, period, extended-guard or not.
And why did you capitalize "opponents sword"? 😆
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
A Shoto doesn't have that advantage.
It doesn't need it. 😆
It does it's job perfectly well, which is the seamless defense of the central line and the ability to check an incoming blade; to accommodate the follow-up strike from the sword.
- If you're trying to say that the Shoto is ineffective to be paired up with a lightsaber, then you're more of a water-head than I thought.
You should just quit now and stop embarrassing yourself, although it is funny to watch. 😛
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anyway we're not even comparing Dual Sabers of different lengths.
Apparently we are. With your borrowing quotes off of website run by LARPers who attack each other with foam. 😛
And then you try to use that to sound like you know what you're talking about, when you obviously don't. 😆
You couldn't even guess at the advantages of a shortsword/Shoto.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
We're comparing Dual Sabers to a single one..
And it stands. Wielding two 3-foot long blades would obstruct the ability of the two, to guard the fatal gap in the central line.
Wielding a single 3-foot blade does not have that obstruction, and is free to guard the central line in it's totality.
Wielding two, would get you killed against an experienced swordsman.
Wielding one, would be able to guard everything better, and would be the effective and practical choice.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In SW it's clearly proved more useful wielding 2.
TCW is a work of fiction with elements clearly aimed at children. It ignores or is ignorant of principles clearly understood in real Swordsmanship.
It's the same stuff you see in cartoons; it's just there to delight and amaze the kiddies.. and the mentally-handicapped. 😮💨
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Because of the weight which Lightsabers don't have. I mean jeez imagine backin the day trying to wield a heavy sword in each hand.
Soldiers were well-trained to carry and fight with heavy gear/objects over miles. 😛
It was because the act of wielding two long blades that obstructed each other so that the body couldn't even be entirely defended, would result in a horrible death on the battlefield, which is why, unlike the sword/dagger combination, the two rapier combination was never used there and was never considered more than a simple curiosity.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I really don't need to when I have you here.
I think your mind is obviously the most in tune with that of a child, here. 😛
You won't let go of the childish notions that you see in cartoons, designed and put there to simply dazzle children.
In a way, it's light-hearted to watch, and yet it's also funny. 😛
From SW Wookie (your preferred "official" source 😂 ):
Dual-blade fighters, whether classical Niman duelists or individuals applying the Jar'Kai tactic, were able to maintain a strong offense, as the speed of attack that two blades allowed would overwhelm most opponents.
Another advantage of Jar'Kai was that the two blades made it easier to hold off multiple opponents, as one simply had more blades to parry with.
😆
You can stop arguing the point now.
Oh and I know it kills you every day that the "kid cartoon" is higher in canonicity than the rest of the EU according to your own preferred source Leeland Chee 😆
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
From SW Wookie (your preferred "official" source ):
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well the Bios on the official site has a link to their wooki bio for a more in depth EU take. So that's something.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dual-blade fighters, whether classical Niman duelists or individuals applying the Jar'Kai tactic, were able to maintain a strong offense, as the speed of attack that two blades allowed would overwhelm most opponents.
Another advantage of Jar'Kai was that the two blades made it easier to hold off multiple opponents, as one simply had more blades to parry with.
Yeah.
I can see a Lightsaber-Shoto combination working well for that. 😎
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You can stop arguing the point now.
I accept your concession. 😮💨
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh and I know it kills you every day that the "kid cartoon" is higher in canonicity than the rest of the EU according to your own preferred source Leeland Chee
Oh, as long as we're arguing "higher canon", care to point out to me in the Trilogies, one instance where Jar'Kai was effectively used to deliver strikes - multiple times together - and not one at a time, and point out to me evidence of it's effectiveness, period. 😉
I want to see what the Highest form of Canon says about the effectiveness and physical characteristics of Jar'Kai, as displayed by a skilled swordsman. 😎
Go ahead; let's see what it produces. 😉
Originally posted by Visage
Official in your words, too, 'Tard. 😛
No not in my words. I was just pointing out that there is a link there. But in this case I'm happy to make an exception just to watch how you desperately try and crawl your way out of this massive hole you've dug for yourself.
Originally posted by Visage
Yeah.I can see a Lightsaber-Shoto combination working well for that. 😎
Nope. Your official source was talking specifically about Dual Lightsabers. Full-Length ones 😮💨 So in your words:
Originally posted by Visage
I accept your concession. 😮💨
Originally posted by Visage
Oh, as long as we're arguing "higher canon", care to point out to me in the Trilogies, one instance where Jar'Kai was effectively used to deliver strikes - multiple times together - and not one at a time, and point out to me evidence of it's effectiveness, period. 😉I want to see what the Highest form of Canon says about the effectiveness and physical characteristics of Jar'Kai, as displayed by a skilled swordsman. 😎
Go ahead; let's see what it produces. 😉
Oh that's simple. It was only used 1 time by AOTC Anakin. And the novel makes it clear Anakin gave Dooku the most trouble with his Dual Sabers. In fact Yoda is described as being even better than the Dual Blade Anakin.
Oh you've so been owned here. By your own official sources, and from the sources you requested. Put your head down in shame and return to your SockVerse, where all Socks belong. And always remember DP handed you your ass.
😮💨 😮💨 😮💨
Originally posted by Visage
Oh, as long as we're arguing "higher canon", care to point out to me in the Trilogies, one instance where Jar'Kai was effectively used to deliver strikes - multiple times together - and not one at a time, and point out to me evidence of it's effectiveness, period. 😉
Oh and duh.. General Grievous. How could I forget him! Whose only noted to produce an offence of a lethal 20 strikes per second with the use of 4 Sabers. (He actually rarely ever uses less than 2, because he realizes not being a force user he better be attacking Jedi with as many Full Length Sabers as he can. I don't remember him using a Shoto 😮💨 ).
And the ROTS Novel and Script both claim that even Kenobi- The Master of the most Defensive form, had a difficult time defending against all 4 of his Sabers.
So yeah:
Originally posted by DARTH POWEROh you've so been owned here. By your own official sources, and from the sources you requested. Put your head down in shame and return to your SockVerse, where all Socks belong. And always remember DP handed you your ass.
😮💨 😮💨 😮💨
Palpatine wins both scenarios-- and easily, at that.
It was made overtly clear in the CW episode that he could have casually obliterated the brothers with the force at any time.... He seemed to engage them in lightsaber combat solely for his own personal enjoyment-- and when he grew tired of that, he tooled each of them with the force.
Confirmation from the Official Site that Sidious also enjoyed battling Yoda:
Master Yoda confronts Darth Sidious in the Senate chambers. The Sith Lord, having long plotted his conquest of the galaxy, delights in battling the Jedi.
Since the closet thing to proof that Sidious held back on the brothers was that Filoni suggested it with his statement about Sidious enjoying the fight, then I guess the Official Site is also suggesting here that Sidious held back against Yoda.