Sith Atrocities in the EU

I created a very similar thread to this in the prequel thread, but it was locked because it was not the EU subforum, and without bringing up the EU, as the moderator and I both noticed, the discussion wasn't really progressing or going anywhere. So, I'm creating a similar thread in the EU subforum.

The Sith started the clone wars and they were responsible for the naboo invasion, all evil deeds, not to mention the destruction of alderaan with the death star (and more possible planets being destroyed with the death star in the future had they won the war) and the jedi order, and Palpatine's EU other imperial atrocities.

However, there is much indication that even before all of those evil things that Palpatine did happened, the Jedi and the sith were enemies for a long time before that, due to specific Sith actions that the films never explained.

In TPM, the jedi council talked about the Sith as if some ancient enemy that has returned from a thousand years ago, and they thought were extinct. This proves that even long before Palpatine's imperial atrocities, the Sith were considered to be evil.

And, also, the Force went out of it's way to create a person-Anakin Skywalker, to kill the Sith, long before any of Palpatine's atrocities ever happened. A Jedi seer told a century old prophecy about that.

And, most of all, in ROTS, Mace Windu and Palpatine's dialogue all together imply that the Sith once ruled the galaxy, and that "the Sith oppression will never return". The Sith were an ancient enemy that once ruled the galaxy in oppresion.

Mace Windu went to arrest Palpatine not just because he started the clone wars, but because he knew that the Sith were just evil in general. But yet Windu had no idea about the Sith building the death star, and neither did the other jedi, and yet, they still thought that sith were evil in general.

And, Padme refused to join Anakin as a Sith to rule the galaxy, but she had no idea about the death star, yet she just knew that the Sith were evil and had a very bad reputation.

But, why were the Sith evil, before all of Palpatine's atrocities, such as the death star and starting wars, etc?

I'm not talking about Palpatine's obvious evilness, it's obvious that he did evil things such as blowing up planets and starting wars just to gain more power. I'm talking about the Sith in general.

What atrocities did the old Sith (from over a millenia ago), do, that made them evil? None of this is ever specified in the films, so I'm asking some of the EU experts to explain the Sith's evilness to me.

Have you not played The Old Republic?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Have you not played The Old Republic?

I should play that game very soon. It's in my room. My brother bought it. It seems very dark and interesting.

As I had stated before, I love the idea that the Sith are not JUST evil because they have a death star. The death star is just one of the evil things that they do, but they would be totally evil even without it, and even without the death star, people still know that the Sith are evil by their pattern of evil actions/behavior (and the death star is a part of that).

However, the movies don't really tell us why the Sith were evil, other than of course Palpatine's imperial atrocities, which don't really explain the Sith in general or the evil reputation that he had as a Sith (even without the death star, as Mace Windu had no idea about the death star, yet he still went to arrest/kill Palpatine to stop the Sith oppression from ever returning).

The movies don't tell us, no, but the EU does.

Basically (and this is the very abridged version of it as I understand it), centuries before the PT a guy called Naga Sadow led a Sith Empire that was as powerful in many ways as the Galactic Republic. When they made contact, the Great Hyperspace War started, in which the Sith Empire basically tried to wipe out the Republic itself.

They're known as tyrants because they were the aggressors in arguably the galaxy's largest, most brutal war.

And if you take the game as being canon (to the EU, as contradictory as that might seem), they tried to wipe out the Jedi Order while at the same time pretending to want peace.

I'd read this if you want more details: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Empire

Originally posted by -Pr-
The movies don't tell us, no, but the EU does.

Basically (and this is the very abridged version of it as I understand it), centuries before the PT a guy called Naga Sadow led a Sith Empire that was as powerful in many ways as the Galactic Republic. When they made contact, the Great Hyperspace War started, in which the Sith Empire basically tried to wipe out the Republic itself.

They're known as tyrants because they were the aggressors in arguably the galaxy's largest, most brutal war.

And if you take the game as being canon (to the EU, as contradictory as that might seem), they tried to wipe out the Jedi Order while at the same time pretending to want peace.

I'd read this if you want more details: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Empire

I assume the Sith Empire existed outside of the Galactic Republic. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Wookipedia is too long and convulted for me to read.

And, how exactly did the Sith meeting up with the Republic start the great hyperspace war? Were the Sith trying to take over the Republic for themselves (kinda like how the germans tried to take over europe and the rest of the world during ww2)?

Why did the Old republic Sith want to wipe out the Jedi order? Didn't the Jedi persecute them first due to philosophical differences in the Force (a jedi seer had a prophecy that one day a special jedi knight would kill the Sith, the Chosen One anakin skywalker)?

I'll try to be as brief as possible.

Some of the Jedi turned to the dark side. Later, some of these jedi started using the force to perform experiments on animals and other creatures, making them dark and twisted. They wanted to be able to continue their force manipulations, but the good jedi were having none of it. A war started, and when the republic won, the jedi chose to banish their kin rather than execute them as the republic wanted.

so the banished "dark jedi" ended up on korriban, meeting the sith species. they interbred with them, and started the sith cult. the sith species were incredibly force sensitive, so this new "master race" made the dark jedi's offspring incredibly powerful. they built their own empire light years away from the republic, and basically the two groups left each other alone for a time. the sith even began to forget all about the republic.

then, a ship carrying a couple of republic explorers landed on korriban. thinking about all the worlds he could enslave, Naga Sadow manipulated events to convince the Sith to invade the republic. so they did. thus began the great hyperspace war.

they were the aggressors, the bad guys. the sith tried to wipe out the republic and the jedi order out of revenge and bitterness and a lust for power.

put simply, they're dicks.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I'll try to be as brief as possible.

Some of the Jedi turned to the dark side. Later, some of these jedi started using the force to perform experiments on animals and other creatures, making them dark and twisted. They wanted to be able to continue their force manipulations, but the good jedi were having none of it. A war started, and when the republic won, the jedi chose to banish their kin rather than execute them as the republic wanted.

so the banished "dark jedi" ended up on korriban, meeting the sith species. they interbred with them, and started the sith cult. the sith species were incredibly force sensitive, so this new "master race" made the dark jedi's offspring incredibly powerful. they built their own empire light years away from the republic, and basically the two groups left each other alone for a time. the sith even began to forget all about the republic.

then, a ship carrying a couple of republic explorers landed on korriban. thinking about all the worlds he could enslave, Naga Sadow manipulated events to convince the Sith to invade the republic. so they did. thus began the great hyperspace war.

they were the aggressors, the bad guys. the sith tried to wipe out the republic and the jedi order out of revenge and bitterness and a lust for power.

put simply, they're dicks.

Didn't the Jedi begin the hostilies with the Sith by not allowing them to practice their own religion?

What exactly do you mean by Sith expriments on animals? How exactly was that evil? Who cares? The darkside by itself is just a religion that the Sith practice. It doesn't really harm anybody all that much.

Please send me a link to what you mean by "sith experiments on animals and other creatures".

You proved my point. The Jedi initiated the hostilies with the Sith. The sith were not the agressors. The Jedi were.

Did the Sith want to take over the republic (like hitler wanted to take over all of europe and over parts of the world and put it under his control)?

I gave you a link already 😛

No, the Jedi didn't initiate hostilities with the Sith. The Jedi banished those from their order that wanted to use the Darkside for dark purposes and to abuse and misuse their abilities. They were using the dark side to twist these creatures to serve them as an army.

They were doing bad things with their powers; if it had been a difference in ideology and nothing else, the Jedi probably wouldn't have cared. But the dark jedi wanted to recruit more to their cause, and to continue what they were doing.

When they (the dark Jedi) went to Korriban, they didn't just interbreed with the Sith species, they made them treat them as gods.

The Sith Empire initiated hostilities with the Jedi and the Republic by invading. They're the bad guys in this scenario. They were banished for being bad guys, and their descendants, wanting power and to conquer, tried to take over the Republic.

So yes, Sadow wanted to conquer and to rule like a galactic hitler of sorts.

The Sith want power, to rule. The Sith kept slaves. They used the dark side of the force to hold sway over less powerful species. You might understand some of what they did, but compared to them, the Jedi are practically saints.

Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
Didn't the Jedi begin the hostilies with the Sith by not allowing them to practice their own religion?

What exactly do you mean by Sith expriments on animals? How exactly was that evil? Who cares? The darkside by itself is just a religion that the Sith practice. It doesn't really harm anybody all that much.

The Sith were an offshoot of the Jedi originally- they did not start as a separate philosophy.

They were a group of Jedi interested in using the force in ways the other Jedi considered unethical, most notably life-modification, as reflected in the creation of Leviathans, which were created during the war and are often considered the masterpieces of this group.

Leviathans were living weapons that absorbed the life-energy of targets, capturing them and draining them until they died, and as a side-effect gaining their knowledge and power, which they would use to hunt others of their kind. So, pretty nasty pieces of work!

These Jedi first began with the experimentation (Leviathans coming later). Other Jedi expressed reluctance and gave warning, but tried to distance themselves from the future Sith (that is to say, they did not take an aggressive stance). These Jedi acted to try and convince the other Jedi of their ways, it became an argument, and then at some point violence erupted. Things continued to escalate, in a conflict known as the Hundred Years Darkness.

Once this group of Jedi were defeated, they were sent into exile, where they landed on Korriban, the home planet of the Sith species. They took control of it and declared themselves the Dark Lords of the Sith.

No further contact was made for about 2,000 years where, encountering two explorers from the Republic (non-Jedi), the Lord of the Sith Naga Sadow used this knowledge to find the Republic and launch a surprise invasion, which was defeated. A Republic counter-attack combined with Sith infighting destroyed the Old Sith Empire. This, by the way, is probably one of the bigger sources of Sith grudge- the Old Sith Empire was destroyed while the Republic lived, but it was in response to a war the Sith launched.

Then the next several Sith lords simply took inspiration from the Sith of old. Exar Kun was a Jedi who killed his master when his mastered cautioned him about studying the dark side, then used the Krath warrior cult and the Mandalorians to try and kill the Jedi and take over the galaxy, for example.

PR- I'm going to go out of a limb and guess that our guest wasn't entirely happy with your answer ^^

Possibly; perhaps I came on too strong, as I have been known to do that.

Honestly, most of what I know about that era is from reading the codexes in TOR, and a couple of wikis, so I might not have all the information. Still, if there's one thing Star Wars is pretty adamant about, it's that the Sith are antagonists. They're the bad guys, and (playing TOR) being the bad guy can be incredibly fun. The Sith seem to revel in it. They don't even pretend half the time that they're morally ambiguous. They just want power, and they'll do anything to get it.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Possibly; perhaps I came on too strong, as I have been known to do that.

I don't think so- I think it's more the person was looking for a reason to paint the Sith as not-so-bad and, well, there isn't one!

... though, to be fair, if one goes all the way back to the Legion of Lettow, the first pre-Sith darkside order, there's a much better argument. They arose during a time when the Jedi were particularly strong on doctrine, which side started the war was unknown, and they never got up to as much evil as the Hundred Year Darkness Sith.

They were still darksiders and the one we know personally (due to being locked in stasis for millennia) was a pretty destructive individual who willingly served Sidious as an Emperor's Hand, then turned on him and didn't join the Rebellion, but rather allied with an Imperial Grand Admiral to try a coup. So not exactly a great bunch, but not as bad as the Sith and the Sith claim no direct linage, though some of the early Hundred Year Darkness teachings were likely based on Legion of Lettow teachings, but with more emphasis on power and less on freedom.

Honestly, most of what I know about that era is from reading the codexes in TOR, and a couple of wikis, so I might not have all the information.

Overall you're pretty bang-on.

Originally posted by Q99
I don't think so- I think it's more the person was looking for a reason to paint the Sith as not-so-bad and, well, there isn't one!

... though, to be fair, if one goes all the way back to the Legion of Lettow, the first pre-Sith darkside order, there's a much better argument. They arose during a time when the Jedi were particularly strong on doctrine, which side started the war was unknown, and they never got up to as much evil as the Hundred Year Darkness Sith.

They were still darksiders and the one we know personally (due to being locked in stasis for millennia) was a pretty destructive individual who willingly served Sidious as an Emperor's Hand, then turned on him and didn't join the Rebellion, but rather allied with an Imperial Grand Admiral to try a coup. So not exactly a great bunch, but not as bad as the Sith and the Sith claim no direct linage, though some of the early Hundred Year Darkness teachings were likely based on Legion of Lettow teachings, but with more emphasis on power and less on freedom.

Overall you're pretty bang-on.

Agreed about the Sith. They're delightfully evil, which is great.

Who was locked in stasis? Sounds like something i'd want to read about.

Ah, cool.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Agreed about the Sith. They're delightfully evil, which is great.

Who was locked in stasis? Sounds like something i'd want to read about.

Arden Lyn, the second-in-command turned second leader of the Legion, from the video game Masters of Teräs Käsi originally.

Interesting. I remember the game, but not the storyline so much.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Interesting. I remember the game, but not the storyline so much.

Oh, in the game she didn't have much, it was fleshed out in the strategy guide, other articles, and so on. Once the character existed, people added on to her story.

Like, did you ever play TIE fighter? And how there was one mission where Zaarin tried to kidnap Palpatine and you had to help rescue him?

It was later retconned/added in that the strike force to do so was lead by her and her pupils.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Agreed about the Sith. They're delightfully evil, which is great.

One fun example is when Lord Dreypa, one of the original lords, arrived at the planet of the Lost Tribe of the Sith.

His reaction, approximately? "A lost tribe of the sith? Sounds weak! I'm going to take it over, then use it as a base to launch an assault on the galaxy."

They don't even pretend to play nice with each other ^^

I never played tie fighter, no. I missed out on a lot of early 90s star wars games. Interesting how they added it though.

Yeah, when the Sith get going, they're pretty outlandish.

That's not to say, though, that Sith were completely without redeemable qualities. They could feel love, compassion etc, it just clashed with their darker nature. Look at Anakin and Darth Malgus. Sith may revel in being evil with one another, but that doesn't make them one-dimensional cardboard villains.

Heck, even TOR (dunno if you'd played it) gives you more than one romance option that makes you wonder if you should be as vicious as you've been in the game so far.

Yea, Sith are rarely all evil, all the time, even as evil as they are. Their individual less-bad areas varies, but most have some. They are, after all, human (/twilek/bith/sith/chalgian/etc. etc.).

The One Sith are surprisingly loyal.

The Brotherhood of Darkness had fewer internal schisms than the Jedi of the same time, to the point that Bane felt they were un-sith.

Plageius was only killed because he grew to trust Palpatine too much. One suspects part of the master/apprentice thing is that without *someone* they can related to, they'd go stir crazy.

And it's not exactly rare for a Sith to compartmentalize their personal life and their sith life in The Old Republic's Sith Empire and similar.

Indeed. Husband/wife might go off to work and subjugate an entire planet, but they still want someone to come home to.

That's one advantage I always felt the Sith had over the Jedi: They use their emotions productively. Even Jedi, who are supposed to be compassionate, are way too rigid, imo, when it comes to their own feelings and how they interact with the order. I mean, look at the top guys in the order; Obi-Wan had Satine/Siri; Anakin had Padme. Hell, even Fisto was involved with Aayla, iirc. They all had relationships, and were still the best of the best.

That's one thing the New Jedi Order improved on. They didn't try to push relationships to the side so much. Partially by necessity, but it worked.

In TOR, Satele Shan barely knew her son. In Legacy, Kol Skywalker raised Cade personally.