Sith Atrocities in the EU

Originally posted by Q99
That's one thing the New Jedi Order improved on. They didn't try to push relationships to the side so much. Partially by necessity, but it worked.

In TOR, Satele Shan barely knew her son. In Legacy, Kol Skywalker raised Cade personally.

Satele has a son? 😑

I didn't even know that.

I'm still trying to get caught up on he NJO stuff. I only started reading Vector Prime the other day.

With the Jedi order, I always felt there was an, if you'll excuse the expression, a "don't ask don't tell" kind of thing when it came to relationships. As long as you kept it to yourself, they wouldn't boot you out of the order, etc.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Satele has a son? 😑

I didn't even know that.

Yep, Theron Shan. He starred in a comic and a novel.

He's a non-force sensitive secret agent. Satele's master (who was a bit senile) tried to train him as a Jedi when he was very young to no success.

I'm still trying to get caught up on he NJO stuff. I only started reading Vector Prime the other day.

Well, the Vong saga is a loooong one, I wouldn't recommend reading through the whole thing ^^

Although I will recommend the comics of the Vong story, Star Wars: Invasion.

(As you might soon realize, I think the comics have a generally higher level of quality compared to the up-and-down novels)

With the Jedi order, I always felt there was an, if you'll excuse the expression, a "don't ask don't tell" kind of thing when it came to relationships. As long as you kept it to yourself, they wouldn't boot you out of the order, etc.

Yea, you don't get married or such, but you have relations.

As opposed to Luke's New Jedi Order, where he was married to a council member. About a third the council was married or had similar relationships...

The name sounds familiar, now that I think about it. Still, she looks very young to have a grown up son, assuming he is i mean.

I'll look up Invasion, and see how it goes. Thanks for the recommendation.

Luke does seem like the kind of guy that would be more progressive. It certainly felt that way in the Jedi Knight games.

Originally posted by -Pr-
The name sounds familiar, now that I think about it. Still, she looks very young to have a grown up son, assuming he is i mean.

I'll look up Invasion, and see how it goes. Thanks for the recommendation.

Luke does seem like the kind of guy that would be more progressive. It certainly felt that way in the Jedi Knight games.

The jedi were the agressors against the Sith because they exiled them first, because of their religious differences in the Force.

Second of all, were the Old Republic video game sith trying to take over the galaxy to rule them and control the galaxy? If so, how exactly was the Sith rule's "oppressive"? They didn't have the death star back then?

Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
The jedi were the agressors against the Sith because they exiled them first, because of their religious differences in the Force.

Second of all, were the Old Republic video game sith trying to take over the galaxy to rule them and control the galaxy? If so, how exactly was the Sith rule's "oppressive"? They didn't have the death star back then?

The Jedi defended themselves against the other Jedi that were using the dark side to try and gain more power. They acted in self defence, and were not the aggressors.

They didn't need the death star; they had fleets of warships, star destroyers, and armies of sith warriors.

An example of Sith aggression:

YouTube video

If you want to imagine what the Sith were, imagine the Empire as it was in the original trilogy. Now, imagine that part of it is also an order of Sith warriors like the Jedi order. Now, imagine that these guys are invading the Republic.

They didn't invade because of what the Jedi did thousands of years ago. They invaded because Naga Sadow wanted to conquer and rule everything he could.

Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
The jedi were the agressors against the Sith because they exiled them first, because of their religious differences in the Force.

Second of all, were the Old Republic video game sith trying to take over the galaxy to rule them and control the galaxy? If so, how exactly was the Sith rule's "oppressive"? They didn't have the death star back then?

wasn't religious belief but more a matter of morals.
Have you taken the time to read anything anyone has tried to show you? Or are you just waiting for someone to agree with you? I honestly curious at this point.

I honestly feel like i've gotten off topic, so i'll be brief.

The original question was why the Sith are considered the bad guys.

The answer is:

The Sith are considered the bad guys because of the Great Hyperspace War.

The Great Hyperspace War was started by the Sith when they invaded the Republic.

The Sith invaded the Republic because Naga Sadow had lied and convinced the other Sith that the Republic was out to get them.

For the most part, any record of the Jedi banishing members of their order had been lost. The invasion was one of pure aggression and a lust for power.

Originally posted by SevenShackles
^wasn't religious belief but more a matter of morals.
Have you taken the time to read anything anyone has tried to show you? Or are you just waiting for someone to agree with you? I honestly curious at this point.

They exiled the Sith because of them building up armies of mutated animals? What the...... 😕 😕 😕 😕

Is that a reference to Sith alchemy, or something else?

In ROTS, Palpatine told anakin that, "the darkside of the force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural".

It was about religious differences in the Force, the Jedi were afraid of certain abilities of the Force, and, as Palpatine told Anakin later on in ROTS, that he must embrace a larger view of the Force, not a narrow dogmatic view of it.

Some SW fans that I talk to tell me that the Jedi's animosity with the sith has absolutley nothing to do with their views on the Force, but rather, with evil actions that the Sith do that are unrealated to the Force. I've proven them wrong now. The Jedi don't like the Sith because of different ways that they practice the Force.

Which basically makes the Jedi agressors since they exiled the Sith, which violated their freedom of religion.

Except that Palpatine was, for lack of a better term, talking out of his ass.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Except that Palpatine was, for lack of a better term, talking out of his ass.

Elaborate more upon that, bro! 💃

Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
Elaborate more upon that, bro! 💃

We have no proof that anything Palpatine said was true. And like I said, the Sith were considered the bad guys because of the Hyperspace War, which they started all because they wanted to conquer, and nothing more.

Originally posted by -Pr-
We have no proof that anything Palpatine said was true. And like I said, the Sith were considered the bad guys because of the Hyperspace War, which they started all because they wanted to conquer, and nothing more.

There is a large difference between conquering and destruction. Some other KMC forums users told me that the Sith wanted to destroy the republic, which implies, to quote tv tropes.com, chaotic evilness, a desire to do evil things for the sake of doing them.

Conquering land is what the Nazis did, they found land and they basically waged wars (which did involved a lot of destruction), but the end goal was to control and take over that land for themselves.

However, bringing balance to the Force seems to heavily imply that the Sith's destruction fixes something in the Force, which is all about religious views on the Force between the Jedi and the Sith. Which sort of implies that even if a Sith wasn't involved in creating dictatorships, the Jedi would still kill him/her to bring balance to the Force.

Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
The jedi were the agressors against the Sith because they exiled them first, because of their religious differences in the Force.

The pre-Sith who were exiled started their conflict, and their "religious differences" involved making monsters that ate people's life forces.

The exile happened after a hundred-year long war that plunged the galaxy into darkness. They didn't just grab some people who were off minding their own business and toss them on a ship. They took a military surrender from people who had persecuted a war for a century and allowed them to leave.

And then those people immediately conquered the planet they landed on.

Second of all, were the Old Republic video game sith trying to take over the galaxy to rule them and control the galaxy? If so, how exactly was the Sith rule's "oppressive"? They didn't have the death star back then?

Yes they were, and they had mass slavery and a large military they enforced it with.

You don't need to have a death star to oppress people.

They exiled the Sith because of them building up armies of mutated animals?

Because the pre-Sith experimented with life to create Leviathans, who drained people's life and knowledge in order to better kill them, as well as other experimentation, including on intelligent beings.

For the purpose of control and conquest, mind.

It was about religious differences in the Force, the Jedi were afraid of certain abilities of the Force, and, as Palpatine told Anakin later on in ROTS, that he must embrace a larger view of the Force, not a narrow dogmatic view of it.

Funny thing, Palpatine had no idea how to do what he said.

And the ability to twist life really wouldn't have solved anything. Heck, the only reason Padme was in danger was a war Palpatine started!

You say 'religious differences,' but 'trying to take over the galaxy' and 'twist life to one's will' is a bit more than a religious difference.

I mean, I guess it could be said so in the same sense that wanted to stop human sacrifice is a religious difference... but you'd still consider human sacrifice evil and worth stopping, yes?

Another example, one of the original Exiles created a plague that turned all that infected into almost-animalistic beasts called Rakghouls- almost, because he enslaved the Rakghouls to his will if he was present. If not, then they would simply spread, kill, and infect others. Biowarfare with a plague that erases people's identities.

Would you kill a dog for fun or to further your curiosity? Would you have a problem if a friend of yours slaughtered many dogs for what you perceived to be no real good reason? Or be okay with them breeding something for the soul purpose of killing a high number of people? Would you not see that more of a moral issue? Wouldn't you tell someone? Try to get him help? (turn him back to the light side) or if he seems to far gone, stop him? (epic light saber battle)
The Jedi didn't act until they crossed a moral line despite any disagreement they might of had with their altered relationship with the force.
There have been instants where Jedi seek to redeem those fallen rather than kill them. You make it seem like a witch hunt based purely off the siths relation to the dark side.

It could be argued that Jedi were a religious group thats purpose was a well meaning one and sith were those who decided to abandon the ideals and morals of the Jedi order to further themselves. Sith only real way of being a cult is how they elevated themselves to status of kings/gods and demanded other follow them as such. They have no ideology beyond serving their own needs and doing whatever they want with the force potential they have (opposed to training themselves to live like monks more or less)

Jedi serve the force, sith use and manipulate it to their will. Not much religion there beyond just being a self serving *******. Yes the sith has laws and rules but it was a means to keep the structure of their society together and those in power in power without question.

"Evil began in a time before recorded history, when magicians made themselves into kings…and gods…using the powers of the dark side of the Force. The weak-minded have ever been ready to obey one who wields great power. Those who learned the powers of the dark side were quick to exploit this weakness—to make war. Again and again the dark side has surged forth, like a storm…devouring whole worlds and entire star systems. Those who mastered dark power became dark power. They unleashed destruction, for no other reason than for selfish gain. They despoiled nations…destroyed whole civilizations. Some of them, I am ashamed to say, were Jedi."
―Ood Bnar[src]

All I'm saying is that morality is a more important factor here than blind religious hate.

Originally posted by Q99
The pre-Sith who were exiled started their conflict, and their "religious differences" involved making monsters that ate people's life forces.

The exile happened after a hundred-year long war that plunged the galaxy into darkness. They didn't just grab some people who were off minding their own business and toss them on a ship. They took a military surrender from people who had persecuted a war for a century and allowed them to leave.

And then those people immediately conquered the planet they landed on.

Yes they were, and they had mass slavery and a large military they enforced it with.

You don't need to have a death star to oppress people.

Because the pre-Sith experimented with life to create Leviathans, who drained people's life and knowledge in order to better kill them, as well as other experimentation, including on intelligent beings.

For the purpose of control and conquest, mind.

Funny thing, Palpatine had no idea how to do what he said.

And the ability to twist life really wouldn't have solved anything. Heck, the only reason Padme was in danger was a war Palpatine started!

You say 'religious differences,' but 'trying to take over the galaxy' and 'twist life to one's will' is a bit more than a religious difference.

I mean, I guess it could be said so in the same sense that wanted to stop human sacrifice is a religious difference... but you'd still consider human sacrifice evil and worth stopping, yes?

Another example, one of the original Exiles created a plague that turned all that infected into almost-animalistic beasts called Rakghouls- almost, because he enslaved the Rakghouls to his will if he was present. If not, then they would simply spread, kill, and infect others. Biowarfare with a plague that erases people's identities.

Why exactly did Emperor Vitate destroy that planet? Also, how many planets did he destroy with the Force?

Why did Darth Nihluis destroy a planet, too?

How many planets did the pre-Palpatine Sith destroy (either by bombings or with the Force)? I'm trying to learn more about the "oppression of the Sith" that mace windu spoke about.

No, Padme was in danger not because of the clone wars but because of anakin's paranoia after shmi's death/a self fullfilling prophecy about her death in childbirth.

Please elabroate more on the Sith experimentation on intelligent beings and warping and creating artifical life, other than the leviathans.

Wait, the same reason the jedi have animosity betweeen the Sith IS about religous differences on the Force, sorta like how some religious people are against cloning, which is similar to the ethical issues about Sith "unnaturally creating" life.

Please send me links about the "sith slavery".

I read somewhere on a star wars forum site that the Sith killed their own officers if their boots weren't polished the right way? Is that true or not?

Why don't you take the time to go read on wookiepedia and get your answers (do research) instead of asking for others to find links and proof for you? It's rather easy.

Originally posted by SevenShackles
Why don't you take the time to go read on wookiepedia and get your answers (do research) instead of asking for others to find links and proof for you? It's rather easy.

Because Wookipedia's articles are too long and confusing and "all over the place", meaning that everything is organized into seperate articles that are hard for me to interpert/understand.

Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
Why exactly did Emperor Vitate destroy that planet? Also, how many planets did he destroy with the Force?

The first one? To gain immortality, killing thousands of fellow sith to do it.

I think that's the only force planet-kill he got, but he did try and kill the entire galaxy in the same way in order to get better immortality.

Why did Darth Nihluis destroy a planet, too?

Because he was hungry.

I'm serious, that's the main reason. His boss pointed him at the planet because she wanted some people on it dead, but that was his primary motive.

How many planets did the pre-Palpatine Sith destroy (either by bombings or with the Force)? I'm trying to learn more about the "oppression of the Sith" that mace windu spoke about.

Uh, you do realize you can oppress people without planet-killing, right?

Most of the time they took over civilizations and used armies.

No, Padme was in danger not because of the clone wars but because of anakin's paranoia after shmi's death/a self fullfilling prophecy about her death in childbirth.

But if it wasn't for Palpatine and the Clone Wars, he never would've been driven to the darkside and self-fulfilled that prophecy.

It was the battles of the war that drove him further and further to the dark side, convincing him that he needed more power and anger would give him more power. It was the fighting that made the anger that he killed Padme with.

Oh, fun-fact, his great grandson Cade Skywalker learned how to bring people back from fatal wounds with the force... and he could do it better with the Light than the Dark.

Please elabroate more on the Sith experimentation on intelligent beings and warping and creating artifical life, other than the leviathans.

Karness Muur- one of the original-original Sith, created the Rakghoul plague.

One scratch from a rakghoul, and a person would become infected, physically change growing claws and teeth, and attack other people, their minds gone. It was a spreading plague that turned people into beasts. It killed over 60 million.

Muur could also turn non-force users directly into rakghouls with the force, and control them with his will.

Wait, the same reason the jedi have animosity betweeen the Sith IS about religous differences on the Force, sorta like how some religious people are against cloning, which is similar to the ethical issues about Sith "unnaturally creating" life.

No, more like how some religious people don't like being sacrificed or conquered or killed, or their fellow people turned into Rakghouls.

You're trying to boil this down to a minor religious conflict of the sort that exists between two minor sects. That isn't the case, the Sith do Bad Things. Concrete bad things that have nothing to do with minor religious differences.

Please send me links about the "sith slavery".

Here, let me tell you the words of Darth Thanaton:

"Once, statues of great men stood before these cliffs. Those statues were monuments to warriors, alchemists, great philosophies who refined the sacred doctrines of the Sith. A hundred thousand slaves gave their lives to carve those statues."

Also, learn of The Crucible, which was tasked with capturing refugees displaced from war in order for them to be used as a slave army that would fight for the Sith Empire.

In the words of one of the victims,
"Through the Great Sith War – Even during the golden age of the Sith – They've been here all along. Hiding, stealing. Stealing people! Tearing families apart. Children, parents separated – Forced to fight! Told their loved ones will suffer if they don't fight. But everyone suffers. Everyones!"
―Ralthar Sitan

Then there's the Odionate, the domain of the Sith Lord Odion during the New Sith Lords.

"Due to his nihilistic worldview, Odion paid little time and resources to the Odionate's economy and his subjects' welfare. Following the annexation of the Bactranate, Odion arranged for the "voluntary deaths" of several bankers and accountants since those occupations had become redundant within his domain. Under his rule, the population was pressed into slavery within his armies and factories churning war materiel."

Fun guy, eh?

I read somewhere on a star wars forum site that the Sith killed their own officers if their boots weren't polished the right way? Is that true or not?

Eh, some of them might do it for something so minor. Lots of subordinates were killed, but generally because they failed, made a mistake, caught their masters on a bad day...

Also, seeing their masters in a moment of weakness was a common cause of death.

They have problems well beyond killing subordinates for minor errors, mind you.

God, I remember the Rakghoul plague in TOR. That was a shitstorm if ever there was one.

Originally posted by -Pr-
God, I remember the Rakghoul plague in TOR. That was a shitstorm if ever there was one.

Oooh, it reoccured in that era? That probably ups the kill-count- the 60 million I mentioned were just from earlier.