Originally posted by Darth Angel
I like when people try to put so much effort in power levels post namek when Toryama clearly didn't care about them plot wise.
We didn't just try, we came up with a very logical conclusion based on canon commentary. In fact, I think we have some of the most accurate estimates in existance. So while Toriyama may not be able to keep things consistant in his head, we can certainly go through things and figure it out.
Originally posted by Darth Angel
1) Base goku, and base sayans for that matter, still seem weaker then a full power frieza. For a small margin probably, but that seems the case. And it's not like this is such a big deal.
We agree, here. 👆
Originally posted by Darth Angel
2) At this time, 5 years after the boo saga, Ssj3 Goku was stablished as the top dog around, regardless of mystic gohan. Several comments point on that, from the Vegeta acknowledge that if ssj3 goku lost to bills, nobody else could harm him, or from kame senin comments when Vegeta was enraged "he even surpassed goku". Yet this is not impossible, because even if mystic gohan was stronger then ssj3 goku at the end of boo saga (what it was never stated, but I repeat, I don't want to enter in this kind of argument), 5 years later is reasonable that goku trained himself to become the top dog again. I mean, it's goku after all. Just dealing with facts until now.
That's all very valid and logical. I also think that Gohan may have gotten weaker. So it could be both a stronger Goku and a weaker Gohan contributing to that outcome.
Also, I would note that in the anime, Goku, in SSJ3 form, was able to fight for a bit with a version of Buu that Gohan could not compete with. That was not the case in the manga. It is possible that this idea, from the anime, was carried over into this movie. This would be a retconn on Toriyama's part...and it would seem he wants to keep the anime stuff consistant.
Originally posted by Darth Angel
3) Goku had a gigantic power leap. Seeing how his freaking BASE level could do better then Ssj3 goku pré-god form, his boost was massive. That is supported by Bills comment about how goku got used to this new world of power, absorved it and didn't lost much power after getting back to base power. As for the multipliers, they were throwed out of the window in the moment that a base goku can kind of keep up with Bills, yet a Ssj Goku is still not good enough to beat him, and yet Goku ssj god form seems still stronger then either of the previous forms.
Since I don't know what you're talkin about because I have not seen the film, I would put this as PIS rather than some sort of revealing canon idea.
Originally posted by Darth Angel
4) Vegeta will eventually get his God like form as well.
Maybeh.
Originally posted by Darth Angel
5) There will be more movies, more god villains and a new saga probably.
I agree. I hope there is another series. 🙁 Oh, and a destruction of GT.
Originally posted by Darth AngelBills explained how this was possible:
As for the multipliers, they were throwed out of the window in the moment that a base goku can kind of keep up with Bills
Even though Goku didn't look like a SSJG, he was still able to assume roughly the same level of power in his base and regular SSJ forms. Evidently the God-power is part of him now, no matter what transformation he assumes.
Originally posted by dadudemon😂 I like you. 👆
We didn't just try, we came up with a very logical conclusion based on canon commentary. In fact, I think we have some of the most accurate estimates in existance. So while Toriyama may not be able to keep things consistant in his head, we can certainly go through things and figure it out.
Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, I'm just glad you could decipher my post! Sorry if it was so 'breathy'. 😛
I only looked at just one. I can tell you put a lot of time and effort into making things right because the only person I went through came out to be logically consistant.
Originally posted by Galan007
Agreed. Tbh, I'd even be willing to put Goku's base PL a little higher if need be--between 110m-115m, but a difference of 15m is ultimately inconsequential when were dealing with numbers of this magnitude. So I'd say 100m is a good approximation for his base.
Goku was more powerful than 100% Frieza by 30m. He tooled Frieza in the manga, every which way. It seems a much closer match could be had with only a 15m difference...without give Frieza any victories that often.
But, as someone pointed out a while back (not in this thread, in another one), the differences in Power Levels, when determining who wins, is one of ratios rather than an absolute PL difference. So, at very high levels, someone that is 50m more stronger can still lose to the weaker person. But Someone who is 50m stronger than a person with a PL of 1 would be lol-pwned.
Originally posted by Galan007
I'd bet our estimates are close enough. The values I mentioned seem logical enough based on the info we have.
That's the best we can do. As I pointed out to Darth Angel, Toriyama's on PIS and inconsistencies are the real issue and we can only do so much to make up for his, at times, absent minded writing.
Originally posted by Galan007
Haha, that would be awesome. I've waited YEARS to debate PLs in depth.
I certainly have the money but I do not have the time to organize such an event. I would want to rent a venue in Colorado...most likely Denver. It would make flights easier and cheaper and a lot of DB fans imbibe. Also, Denver has decent location pricing compared to other large flight hubs.
I was thinking about purchasing KMC because Raz is never around to admin and clean up the place but, instead, I'm going to save my money. I think a DB Convention would be great and we could have guest speakers, merchandising, etc. Similar to a Comic-Con but specific to DB. Based on the DB fanbase in America, alone, I think a lot of people would love to go.
I would narrow down the guest speakers, when it came to the PL discussions, after several interviews with various people. I would have to establish a task force that would locate those "experts." The guest speakers would be paid for their guest-speaking services, of course. Part of the revenue would come from the vendors that wanted to setup shop and sell merch at the convention. I would not set a flat-fee: I would set it as a percentage so that those who did not have a lot of sales would not be hit very hard. Those that had a lot of sales would profit the convention, greatly. I would also have to make a deal with the North American licensed organization, Funimation, to get them onboard with this.
To control the financial transactions being made, I would establish a system of purchasing that could be tracked and reports run so I can determine, on the vendor's behalf, which items and item types sold the most (or were the most profitable) so they could get this information in the future to setup more successful shops.
Of course, I already have generic contracts that would require very little wording changes. I would need to flesh out the state and municipal laws regarding merchandising and taxes to ensure the convention complied and was above board on everything.
But, I thought about this type of convention quite a bit. I would like to see something like this take off. Some of the most hardcore and dedicated fans are DB fans. We could throw in ancillary interests like Naruto stuff. That would probably be something Funimation would want to do. I know conventions like these are done in Japan, already. I would probably want to get into contact with an event coordinator from Japan to get a feel and direction for how a North American event would work. I would also want to get into contact for the Comic-Con organizers for North American localization advice (because things are down here slightly differently than in Japan).
Anyway, I think an event like this, if done properly, could be a big hit. It could also increase/renew interest in Dragonball and possibly other stuff similar to it. It would be more niche than Comic-Con.
Originally posted by Galan007
Bills explained how this was possible:
Even though Goku didn't look like a SSJG, he was still able to assume roughly the same level of power in his base and regular SSJ forms. Evidently the God-power is part of him now, no matter what transformation he assumes.
I would assume he would eventually burn through that power boost and revert back to his regular old self rather than staying permanently amped.
Originally posted by dadudemonYou've put a lot of thought into a DBZ convention, which I can appreciate. IF you ever put one together, let me know. I'm normally not much on the convention scene, but DBZ appeals to me on a euphorically nostalgic level, so I wouldn't miss it. 😛
I only looked at just one. I can tell you put a lot of time and effort into making things right because the only person I went through came out to be logically consistant.That would make sense to do and here's why:
Goku was more powerful than 100% Frieza by 30m. He tooled Frieza in the manga, every which way. It seems a much closer match could be had with only a 15m difference...without give Frieza any victories that often.
But, as someone pointed out a while back (not in this thread, in another one), the differences in Power Levels, when determining who wins, is one of ratios rather than an absolute PL difference. So, at very high levels, someone that is 50m more stronger can still lose to the weaker person. But Someone who is 50m stronger than a person with a PL of 1 would be lol-pwned.
That's the best we can do. As I pointed out to Darth Angel, Toriyama's on PIS and inconsistencies are the real issue and we can only do so much to make up for his, at times, absent minded writing.
I certainly have the money but I do not have the time to organize such an event. I would want to rent a venue in Colorado...most likely Denver. It would make flights easier and cheaper and a lot of DB fans imbibe. Also, Denver has decent location pricing compared to other large flight hubs.
I was thinking about purchasing KMC because Raz is never around to admin and clean up the place but, instead, I'm going to save my money. I think a DB Convention would be great and we could have guest speakers, merchandising, etc. Similar to a Comic-Con but specific to DB. Based on the DB fanbase in America, alone, I think a lot of people would love to go.
I would narrow down the guest speakers, when it came to the PL discussions, after several interviews with various people. I would have to establish a task force that would locate those "experts." The guest speakers would be paid for their guest-speaking services, of course. Part of the revenue would come from the vendors that wanted to setup shop and sell merch at the convention. I would not set a flat-fee: I would set it as a percentage so that those who did not have a lot of sales would not be hit very hard. Those that had a lot of sales would profit the convention, greatly. I would also have to make a deal with the North American licensed organization, Funimation, to get them onboard with this.
To control the financial transactions being made, I would establish a system of purchasing that could be tracked and reports run so I can determine, on the vendor's behalf, which items and item types sold the most (or were the most profitable) so they could get this information in the future to setup more successful shops.
Of course, I already have generic contracts that would require very little wording changes. I would need to flesh out the state and municipal laws regarding merchandising and taxes to ensure the convention complied and was above board on everything.
But, I thought about this type of convention quite a bit. I would like to see something like this take off. Some of the most hardcore and dedicated fans are DB fans. We could throw in ancillary interests like Naruto stuff. That would probably be something Funimation would want to do. I know conventions like these are done in Japan, already. I would probably want to get into contact with an event coordinator from Japan to get a feel and direction for how a North American event would work. I would also want to get into contact for the Comic-Con organizers for North American localization advice (because things are down here slightly differently than in Japan).
Anyway, I think an event like this, if done properly, could be a big hit. It could also increase/renew interest in Dragonball and possibly other stuff similar to it. It would be more niche than Comic-Con.
Originally posted by dadudemonOh, I don't think he stays permanently God-amped or anything. In fact, we saw Goku deplete the amp at the end of the film, after he used nearly all of his remaining energy to block Bills' energy attack.
I would assume he would eventually burn through that power boost and revert back to his regular old self rather than staying permanently amped.
I was just explaining to Darth Angel how base and SSJ Goku were still able to [sort of] contend with Bills, despite him appearing(from a purely visual standpoint) to lose his God-amp.
Goku's burgundy-colored hair and fiery CG aura(trademarks of the SSJG) may have vanished, but per Bills, Goku was still able to operate at near SSJG-levels, even though he had appeared to power down to his base and SSJ forms. This was possible because said God-power had infused itself to Goku's person-- it is part of him now, regardless of the level/transformation he assumes(though a 'proper' SSJG is obviously far more powerful than any other form he has access to.)
Originally posted by Galan007
You've put a lot of thought into a DBZ convention, which I can appreciate. IF you ever put one together, let me know. I'm normally not much on the convention scene, but DBZ appeals to me on a euphorically nostalgic level, so I wouldn't miss it. 😛
I'd definitely request you be a guest speaker.
Other things I did not explicitly mention were the games but that's part of what I meant by Merch.
We'd also have a cosplay contest and probably the hilariously geeky/stupid "Kamehameha" contest.
It is fun to speculate on these things, for sure. But I'd definitely want a lengthy planning period where a committee of experts and fans assist with the planning period.
Advertising this and getting vendors on board with it would be a really big deal. I could get some media sites to advertise for us and use a start-up on Kickstarter. I would want to award contributors with 3-5 levels of presents for funding the operation, of course. I probably need to really get started on this and get some legal advise form one of the lawyers at work. hmm
Originally posted by Galan007
Oh, I don't think he stays permanently God-amped or anything. In fact, we saw Goku deplete the amp at the end of the film, after he used nearly all of his remaining energy to block Bills' energy attack.I was just explaining to Darth Angel how base and SSJ Goku were still able to [sort of] contend with Bills, despite him appearing(from a purely visual standpoint) to lose his God-amp.
Goku's burgundy-colored hair and fiery CG aura(trademarks of the SSJG) may have vanished, but per Bills, Goku was still able to operate at near SSJG-levels, even though he had appeared to power down to his base and SSJ forms. This was possible because said God-power had infused itself to Goku's person-- it is part of him now, regardless of the level/transformation he assumes(though a 'proper' SSJG is obviously far more powerful than any other form he has access to.)
Capisco.
Originally posted by dadudemonYou have no idea how much it would appeal to my latent nerdery to get up in front of a group of fellow DBZ'ers, and break down my estimations of power levels on a large white-board(it would take a LOT of room to do this in longhand), answer questions pertaining to said estimations, etc.
I'd definitely request you be a guest speaker.
I would probably put together a power-point full of scans from the manga, and video clips from the anime to help solidify my points as fact. It would be fun.
Originally posted by dadudemonI like how much serious thought you've put into this. Seems like you've covered every aspect of a large-scale/non-corny convention. With the proper advertising, this could be HUGE. How awesome would it be if the offical english-dub for BoG dropped at this event? Come to think of it: given the lack of DB-oriented events in the US these days, FUNimation might jump at the opportunity to launch a new movie at this event, if it meant an increase in sales(which it surely would.)
Other things I did not explicitly mention were the games but that's part of what I meant by Merch.We'd also have a cosplay contest and probably the hilariously geeky/stupid "Kamehameha" contest.
It is fun to speculate on these things, for sure. But I'd definitely want a lengthy planning period where a committee of experts and fans assist with the planning period.
Advertising this and getting vendors on board with it would be a really big deal. I could get some media sites to advertise for us and use a start-up on Kickstarter. I would want to award contributors with 3-5 levels of presents for funding the operation, of course. I probably need to really get started on this and get some legal advise form one of the lawyers at work. hmm
Originally posted by Galan007
You have no idea how much it would appeal to my latent nerdery to get up in front of a group of fellow DBZ'ers, and break down my estimations of power levels on a large white-board(it would take a LOT of room to do this in longhand), answer questions pertaining to said estimations, etc.I would probably put together a power-point full of scans from the manga, and video clips from the anime to help solidify my points as fact. It would be fun.
It would be a blast (pun) for the fans, too, no doubt. Every single DB fan I've talked to gets into these lengthy, nuanced discussions regarding power levels and rankings. It seems to be a staple or "must argue" of being a DB fan.
Originally posted by Galan007
I like how much serious thought you've put into this. Seems like you've covered every aspect of a large-scale/non-corny convention. With the proper advertising, this could be HUGE. How awesome would it be if the offical english-dub for BoG dropped at this event? Come to think of it: given the lack of DB-oriented events in the US these days, FUNimation might jump at the opportunity to launch a new movie at this event, if it meant an increase in sales(which it surely would.)
That means I would need to get on this sooner than later. I need to tell my boss to STFU with all of the work related projects, then. uhuh
I will contact Funimation and Comic-Con (for advice and expertise...which would be paid). The ball should get rolling on an ASAP.
Originally posted by dadudemonDBZ is a rarity in the world of fiction. You can actually gauge its characters numerically(which is why these discussions appeal to me), as opposed to gauging them exclusively by 'teh battel feets!!111!!'
It would be a blast (pun) for the fans, too, no doubt. Every single DB fan I've talked to gets into these lengthy, nuanced discussions regarding power levels and rankings. It seems to be a staple or "must argue" of being a DB fan.
For example, even if two characters have never encountered one another, we can accurately/logically say: "Character A would beat the bejesus out of Character B, because Character A's PL=1m, and Character B's PL=200k." They don't need to physically battle in order for me to know, with certainty, who would win.
Originally posted by dadudemon
That means I would need to get on this sooner than later. I need to tell my boss to STFU with all of the work related projects, then. uhuhI will contact Funimation and Comic-Con (for advice and expertise...which would be paid). The ball should get rolling on an ASAP.
Originally posted by Galan007
DBZ is a rarity in the world of fiction. You can actually gauge its characters numerically(which is why these discussions appeal to me), as opposed to gauging them exclusively by 'teh battel feets!!111!!'For example, even if two characters have never encountered one another, we can accurately/logically say: "Character A would beat the bejesus out of Character B, because Character A's PL=1m, and Character B's PL=200k." They don't need to physically battle in order for me to know, with certainty, who would win.
That's probably why Dragonball appeals to males so readily. I was reading about a study a researcher is doing that showed that males and females, even at 9 months old, showed differences in information processing. The males gravitated towards play things that representated logic, engineering, and math stuff (cars, personality absent building blocks (blocks without faces such as wooden building blocks)) and the females to more socially oriented play things like dolls, things with faces, things that talked.
It is a biological thing. This is why boys like to argue and discuss about DB powerlevels. It is a logic thing that allows us to quantify and compare...which is what we were doing before we even developed, socially. Pretty damn amazing, I think. Seems unrelated but this is to prepare you for the massive sausage fest that will be experienced.
Prolly need to get some female cosplayers. peaches
Originally posted by dadudemonThat is interesting, and seems quite accurate when I start thinking about most of the men and women I know(inc. my 3y/o daughter.)
That's probably why Dragonball appeals to males so readily. I was reading about a study a researcher is doing that showed that males and females, even at 9 months old, showed differences in information processing. The males gravitated towards play things that representated logic, engineering, and math stuff (cars, personality absent building blocks (blocks without faces such as wooden building blocks)) and the females to more socially oriented play things like dolls, things with faces, things that talked.It is a biological thing. This is why boys like to argue and discuss about DB powerlevels. It is a logic thing that allows us to quantify and compare...which is what we were doing before we even developed, socially. Pretty damn amazing, I think. Seems unrelated but this is to prepare you for the massive sausage fest that will be experienced.
Prolly need to get some female cosplayers. peaches
Any females that show up to an event like this probably need to have their own security guards on site. You'd have an abundance of RL Master Roshi's following them around like flies on shit just to perv. 😛
Originally posted by Galan007
That is interesting, and seems quite accurate when I start thinking about most of the men and women I know(inc. my 3y/o daughter.)
The only thing I took out of that was "Galan made babies at once point." 😐
Originally posted by Galan007
Any females that show up to an event like this probably need to have their own security guards on site. You'd have an abundance of RL Master Roshi's following them around like flies on shit just to perv. 😛
Ha! HAAHAHAH!
I'd be one of the Roshis. estahuh
Originally posted by Galan007
Bills explained how this was possible:Even though Goku didn't look like a SSJG, he was still able to assume roughly the same level of power in his base and regular SSJ forms. Evidently the God-power is part of him now, no matter what transformation he assumes.
Still, in that very scene, Goku admitted that the power difference was HUGE.
