Here's the 'jump up a building with no grapple line' page
Originally posted by the Darkone
Cap is no regular human 😉 , he is superhuman especially with his feats which dwarfs cass, hows jumping is going to help cass recover from a head shot or nerves strike by Cap. Caps punches has affect beings like Namor, Thor, Hulk etc, and his reflexes are superhuman also, because cass is a girl doesn't mean Cap wont put her on her a$$.
Cass's hits have had an effect on Superboy, and her speed feats and dodging feats are better than his. Her strength is not quite his but still really impressive, nor has she been overwhelmed by strength at his level.
Her foe Shiva, beaten multiple times by Cassandra, can punch through concrete and skulls bare handed. And then there's Slade, of course.
I think the strength argument is overrated, I'm hard pressed to think of a comic martial arts fight where this level of difference in strength was decisive when it's matched with similar difference in other areas.
Originally posted by Q99
Here's the 'jump up a building with no grapple line' pageCass's hits have had an effect on Superboy, and her speed feats and dodging feats are better than his. Her strength is not quite his but still really impressive, nor has she been overwhelmed by strength at his level.
Her foe Shiva, beaten multiple times by Cassandra, can punch through concrete and skulls bare handed. And then there's Slade, of course.
I think the strength argument is overrated, I'm hard pressed to think of a comic martial arts fight where this level of difference in strength was decisive when it's matched with similar difference in other areas.
Bringing up the strength advantage, is no different then you bringing up a speed advantage that she has, which is really more argumentative then a actual advantage.
Point is Steve's strength and durability advantage seems to be much more secure nor contested against, then her speed advantage. As a case could be made for Steve that he is just as fast or faster as well. So yes strength, durability, speed, skill, even Steve's superior long lasting stamina and low level healing would play a part. Steve has healed a bullet to the head in a couple of minutes and healed burns in a couple of seconds.
Its really her A+ plus skill, body reading, and incredible record against her peers that establishes her incredible effectiveness.
At the very end if you tally all the advantages, I do believe Steve just wins that out in the end. But it isn't always about that either, as her record against Deathstroke speaks for itself IMO. As does her constant stalemates against her peers. Cass is the new Shiva but she is just one of the good guys. 🙂
This really can be a draw to me but I'll side with Cap and you'll side with Cass.
Originally posted by Q99
[url=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_MFz0z7jVEKU/TN2jg6IbeeI/AAAAAAAACZM/x-RsukfOe5I/s1600/rrob_17_dylux-6-copy.jpg]
I think the strength argument is overrated, I'm hard pressed to think of a comic martial arts fight where this level of difference in strength was decisive when it's matched with similar difference in other areas.
In the interest of fairness, I'll just say I think Cass having any effect at all on Superboy, is as much a case of PIS as Steve having an effect on Namor.
But I agree with the above. Strength advantage is usually pretty understated in comic books. Certainly, much greater strength advantages then Steve has have rarely affected the outcome of a match. It's only when we're talking about massive, multiple tens of tons of strength difference that it really matters.
Steve's fights with US Soldier alone kind of put to rest arguments that strength is a decisive factor.
^But strength is usually not a decisive factor when the opponent has other advantages such as skill, speed etc.
Here Steve is at least comparably skilled, arguably faster and clearly a lot stronger/tougher. As such, his physical superiority will be very noticeable. Steve isn't some unskilled brick she can dance around and wear down with precise strikes.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
^But strength is usually not a decisive factor when the opponent has other advantages such as skill, speed etc.Here Steve is at least comparably skilled, arguably faster and clearly a lot stronger/tougher. As such, his physical superiority will be very noticeable. Steve isn't some unskilled brick she can dance around and wear down with precise strikes.
👆
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
^But strength is usually not a decisive factor when the opponent has other advantages such as skill, speed etc.Here Steve is at least comparably skilled, arguably faster and clearly a lot stronger/tougher. As such, his physical superiority will be very noticeable. Steve isn't some unskilled brick she can dance around and wear down with precise strikes.
That's all arguable, though. Cass is at least comparable to Elektra in speed, who imo has superior combat speed feats then Steve herself.. Skills wise, Batman considered her "perfect", and in pure skill few, if anybody thinks Steve is superior to Batman (If not in overall stats..) And toughness? The girls purposely used her body as a human shield while advancing on an enemy.. She's KOed Shiva, after having her shoulder dislocated. By any measure, she's a very tough street leveler, and imo trying to say one is "tougher" then the other is a pretty pointless debate.. Both have nothing to prove in the toughness department.
But even if they were equal in every way, except strength, the fact is their gap is nothing by comic book standards.. One or two tons here or there has rarely made much difference. It's usually things like durability, speed, or skill, that matter.
No one's saying Cass isn't tough, but comparing strength/stamina/endurance feats against Steve won't go well for her. His averages are great and his high end feats are ridiculous. His speed and agility is also on par with her own and his skill has likewise being referred to as being "the finest combatant on Earth" and other similar statements, all of which have been backed up on panel.
Originally posted by cdtm
That's all arguable, though. Cass is at least comparable to Elektra in speed, who imo has superior combat speed feats then Steve herself.. Skills wise, Batman considered her "perfect", and in pure skill few, if anybody thinks Steve is superior to Batman (If not in overall stats..) And toughness? The girls purposely used her body as a human shield while advancing on an enemy.. She's KOed Shiva, after having her shoulder dislocated. By any measure, she's a very tough street leveler, and imo trying to say one is "tougher" then the other is a pretty pointless debate.. Both have nothing to prove in the toughness department.But even if they were equal in every way, except strength, the fact is their gap is nothing by comic book standards.. One or two tons here or there has rarely made much difference. It's usually things like durability, speed, or skill, that matter.
Based on? Are you arguing that he isn't on her level skill wise?
Used her body as a human shield and a dislocated shoulder? Lol, you do realize this is Captain America right? If you even think that's comparable to some of the things he's survived and done, I think you need to visit a respect thread or something.
I don't think it's pointless. Steve is certainly tougher and a lot more durable.
They aren't equal in every way. Even if she's on par with speed (And I don't know that she is), Steve has a very big advantage in terms of strength/durability. Like I said, strength is only minimal when the opponent has other attributes to close the gap and gain the advantage.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Based on? Are you arguing that he isn't on her level skill wise?
I'm saying, you seem to be taking it for granted that Steve's as skilled, when it's an arguable point. Cass is up there with the best of the best in DC. To make such a casual comment, is akin to agreeing with jinzin over there that Marvel's MA division is simply better then DC's. You don't think that, do you?
Used her body as a human shield and a dislocated shoulder? Lol, you do realize this is Captain America right? If you even think that's comparable to some of the things he's survived and done, I think you need to visit a respect thread or something.
And maybe you should visit a Cass respect thread.
I don't think it's pointless. Steve is certainly tougher and a lot more durable.
"Tougher"? What does this even mean? In terms of damage soak? Both are about as good as it comes here. Dealing with pain? Wash, imo. If you want to pull out the "Steve's tanked Hulk punches" or something stupid, then maybe, but I'd hope you can distinguish between high end feats, and blatant PIS showings.
They aren't equal in every way. Even if she's on par with speed (And I don't know that she is), Steve has a very big advantage in terms of strength/durability. Like I said, strength is only minimal when the opponent has other attributes to close the gap and gain the advantage.
Examples of strength and minimal advantages deciding a fight? Where Strength was obviously the deciding factor, and they're obviously of comparable skill and stats, since a stronger opponent can also defeat a weaker opponent through sheer skill, without relying on his strength edge?
Steve's tough, but he's not invulnerable and can be hurt by street levelers. You'll need to prove his strength edge matters, with some examples of similarly tiered characters having it out, and the equally skilled, equally durable, equally quick, stronger opponent winning because he's stronger.
Originally posted by cdtm
Nope. I'm saying, you seem to be taking it for granted that Steve's more skilled, when it's an arguable point. Cass is up there with the best of the best in DC. To make such a casual comment, is akin to agreeing with jinzin over there that Marvel's MA division is simply better then DC's. You don't think that, do you?
I didn't say Steve was more skilled, but comparable no?
Originally posted by cdtm
And maybe you should visit a Cass respect thread.
I've seen her notable feats. You should see some of Steve's.
Originally posted by cdtm
"Tougher"? Damage soak? Both are about as good as it comes here. Dealing with pain? Wash, imo. If you want to pull out the "Steve's tanked Hulk punches" or something stupid, then maybe, but I'd hope you can distinguish between high end feats, and blatant PIS showings.
I'm a bit confused here, are you denying that Steve is a lot more durable than Cass? Something like the beating he took from Iron Man alone is a lot better than anything I've seen Cass do.
For the record, Steve has gotten hit by superhumans way too often and has a lot of ridiculous high end feats for them to simply be ignored. Just recently he tanked Gambit charging his armor, and fell out a burning Quinjet that had fallen from orbit into a building (Was back in fighting shape in like a day or something I think).
Originally posted by cdtm
Examples of strength and minimal advantages deciding a fight? Where Strength was obviously the deciding factor, since a stronger opponent can defeat a weaker opponent through sheer skill, without relying on his strength edge?
What do you mean minimal advantage? Steve is a lot stronger than her. Do you disagree?
So you want to bricks going at it?
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
They aren't equal in every way. Even if she's on par with speed (And I don't know that she is),
She's got the better speed feats with her bullet dodging, and move reading.
Steve has a very big advantage in terms of strength/durability.
It's not even that big in strength. She's punched through bulletproof glass (cover with it. And yes, it happens inside the comic too) and brick walls. Capt may be a bit above Peak Human, but Cassandra's at the edge of human limits herself.
Originally posted by Q99
She's got the better speed feats with her bullet dodging, and move reading.It's not even that big in strength. She's punched through bulletproof glass (cover with it. And yes, it happens inside the comic too) and brick walls. Capt may be a bit above Peak Human, but Cassandra's at the edge of human limits herself.
She kicked a hole through a prison wall more than large enough to carry a man through, too. Almost large enough to drive a small car through.
Originally posted by Q99
She's got the better speed feats with her bullet dodging, and move reading.
And Steve has moved fast enough to block bullets from reaching destination. In part because he "sees" faster than them, so not impressed with move reading. He's also outmaneuvered Quicksilver and the Whizzer.
Originally posted by Q99
It's not even that big in strength. She's punched through bulletproof glass (cover with it. And yes, it happens inside the comic too) and brick walls. Capt may be a bit above Peak Human, but Cassandra's at the edge of human limits herself.
Yes it is. Are you using a cover as evidence? Lol.
Also punching through prison glass is cute and all, but Steve has thrown his shield hard enough to literally cut the top of a tank, shouldered through a reinforced steel door, forcefully shut Nuclear Launch doors, has bent the flaps on the wing of a plane, and restrained freaking Wolverine. That's without getting to the high end feats that would make people cry PIS.
Punching through a wall is nice, but Steve throws people through walls during breakfast.
Edit: Since you posted a scan, it's only fair that I do the same:
http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericavol31222pg8.jpg
http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericavol31223sq0.jpg
http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericavol31224rb3.jpg
Also, Steve can dodge bullets easily as well:
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/6139/captainamerica253p04fw3.jpg
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/166/captainamerica253p05jf5.jpg
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/1950/captainamerica19903si4.jpg
http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/8299/ca14016ur2.jpg
Not that I find bullet dodging particularly impressive but it seems to hold a lot of weight here for some reason.
Originally posted by Q99
It's not even that big in strength. She's punched through bulletproof glass (cover with it. And yes, it happens inside the comic too) and brick walls. Capt may be a bit above Peak Human, but Cassandra's at the edge of human limits herself.
Cass is at the top of current human limitations but Steve is the next step in human evolution. Breaking a wall or jail bars is stuff that Daredevil does. Steve seems to operate at a different level as he has been noted to hold back his strength against his peers.
Cap has raw strength feats that seem to above Cass. Examples like
Steve pulling a supply truck in the desert with a broken axel.
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/2944/captainamericadmr2of303zm4.jpg
Steve easily holding off and forcing the arms back as MadDog who is class Superhuman strength.
http://img487.imageshack.us/img487/551/captainamerica41116cp1.jpg
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/751/captainamerica41117fa5.jpg
Or Steve breaking out of cryogenic freeze.
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/4712/captainamerica444p22uk1.jpg
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/1307/captainamerica44503zw3.jpg
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/4286/captainamerica4450405.jpg
To even stopping superhuman USAgent's punch.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/59/usagentpunch.jpg/
Originally posted by JakeTheBankholding back doesn't imply not trying to win. If Cap doesn't hold back then he could win in a hit or two. But holding back then it would take more hits which gives Cass a better chance. Do you understand?
Why would Steve hold back in a forum fight?Obviously, in character, he won't aim to permanently maim her or kill her, but he will try to win.
Originally posted by cdtm"Tougher"? What does this even mean? In terms of damage soak? Both are about as good as it comes here. Dealing with pain? Wash, imo. If you want to pull out the "Steve's tanked Hulk punches" or something stupid, then maybe, but I'd hope you can distinguish between high end feats, and blatant PIS showings.
Cap seems to have a satisfactory advantage in durability and damage soak. I hope you can distinguish his own consistent feats as Cap has more consistent durability feats that even outweigh Cass own so called bullet time feats that you hold so valuable.
Feats like easily handling a 200 ft fall.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/835/captainamerica002durabi.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/84/captainamerica00218.jpg/
To free falling from insane cloud heights in a open land area accelerated by Warmachine himself.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/541/secretavengers10007.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/17/secretavengers10011.jpg/
Or Steve getting hit so hard by a blast that he goes through buildings.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/201/avengerszone008.jpg/
Non enhanced characters would be road pizza after that. Hulk punches are not even required to demonstrate his much better durability over Cass.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Cass is at the top of current human limitations but Steve is the next step in human evolution. Breaking a wall or jail bars is stuff that Daredevil does. Steve seems to operate at a different level as he has been noted to hold back his strength against his peers.
Yes, but Daredevil/Cassandra level strength has shown to be enough to fight him effectively, and she has advantages in other areas.
