Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
After all nobody question someone like TOAA for feats.
Well, I do, even there 🙂
Of course, those feats, while few, are huge, so that's pretty easy and tends to return a very straitforward result. But at no point do I feel feats stop being the measure of power.
It's quite possible for something to be more impressive than TOAA.
Originally posted by Astner
No they're not. The Light-Hawk Wings have limited capabilities when it comes to matter manipulation, in fact the idea that it cancels out any assault is by "multiplying it with zero" was made up and isn't supported by any source material. Further we have this, explaining that the Light-Hawk Wings can be conventionally quantified.
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Well, just because the arguments are based off misinformation doesn't mean it's not been debated on pretty much every anime board ever, making it a "staple argument". 😉
Seriously though, I didn't know that the "multiplying by zero" was made up. How did it fly under the radar for so long? Tenchi's rather popular, yet so's that myth.
Originally posted by cdtm
Seriously though, I didn't know that the "multiplying by zero" was made up. How did it fly under the radar for so long? Tenchi's rather popular, yet so's that myth.
I wouldn't call it a myth. That phrasing isn't used, but 'converts the energy into a harmless form' and only 'one power exists that could pierce them.'
It's more like 'gains the status effect: Useless,' but the point is with most stuff there's no piercing them no matter how much you throw.
Originally posted by Q99
Ah, don't you love it when people come in with "X will win" with nothing to back it up?No, naurtoisbeast, Goku has nothing in this fight.
What host? He doesn't have a host, he is Tenchi. He was a human-juraian hybrid who eventually became uber, created a trio of goddesses, who created countless universes, one of which he was born in (yes, that's circular. They don't mind).
He created the trio that created everything else.
And personally, I prefer avoiding words like 'omnipotent' and 'omniscient'. A lot of stuff that gets described that way is actually really lacking in the feats department (Like, "Ah ha, X created and omnipotent and omniscient over this universe!... which contains one world... and not everything goes according to his plan."😉
I prefer to stick with more concrete stuff, like "More powerful than a trio of multiverse creators, who are in turn have greater feats than anyone in DBZ, even Whis, let alone SSG Goku."
Oh, and 'has effortless timetravel.'
Originally posted by cdtm
Astner, I'm guessing in all the Lucifer Morningstar vs LT fights, you would have come down solidly on the "Not even in the same ballpark" category.
Originally posted by Q99
I wouldn't call it a myth. That phrasing isn't used, but 'converts the energy into a harmless form' and only 'one power exists that could pierce them.'
It's clear from the context that enough energy would pierce their defenses. By saying that it can nullify any form of assault by multiplying it with zero you're implying that there's no limit to their defensive properties.
Furthermore, the notion of that only one power exists that could pierce them only applies to that setting.
"Incidentally, to increase the number of Ko-oh-yoku by one, twice as much energy is needed. (i.e. Tsunami uses 2^10/2^3 = 2^7 = 128 times as much energy.)"
From the information given we know that we can express the energy as a function of the Light-Hawk Wings as follows: E(n) = c2ⁿ, where c is a finite unknown constant and n is the amount of Light-Hawk Wings; and since c is finite, 2 is finite and n is finite it follows that E(n) is finite.
So if you a character could generate energy greater than E(n), you'd pierce the defensive properties of the Light-Hawk Wings.
Astner
It's clear from the context that enough energy would pierce their defenses. By saying that it can nullify any form of assault by multiplying it with zero you're implying that there's no limit to their defensive properties.
No, it's clear from the context that there is a specific method which can piece the defenses, and even that method requires a lot of power. The implication being that a lot of power without that method will not do. A bit different.
Furthermore, the notion of that only one power exists that could pierce them only applies to that setting.
Sure, if there's something compatible to the things that can cancel it (the one method, or other LHWs- so equivalents would be powers that draw on similar high-level beings). Not brute force.
From the information given we know that we can express the energy as a function of the Light-Hawk Wings as follows: E(n) = c2ⁿ, where c is a finite unknown constant and n is the amount of Light-Hawk Wings; and since c is finite, 2 is finite and n is finite it follows that E(n) is finite.So if you a character could generate energy greater than E(n), you'd pierce the defensive properties of the Light-Hawk Wings.
No, because that's making the assumption that the wings work by using up their energy to make their defense in proportion to the attack. The wings work by converting incoming energy into a new type of energy, and it is no-where implied that it's energy decreases to do so. Indeed, quite the opposite, it apparently requires a very specific power to do so.
It costs finite amount of energy to make wings, but wings make a barrier of 'pass through this and your energy becomes harmless,' they aren't like a standard Star Trek style shield that counter power with power.
A finite cost to set up is not the same as requiring the same finite amount to knock down. Stasis fields in Known Space, for example, are fairly cheap to set up, very finite cost, you can power one in a battery you can hold, but other stasis fields are pretty much the only possible way to turn them off once they're on. Or in Fate/Stay Knight, Avalon works by removing the defender from offensive effects. It has a finite cost to activate and sustain, but raw force would never touch the one protected, instead you'd need a kind of dimension-piercer effect.
Things with finite energy cost that require specific methods to defeat are not a unique thing, in other words.
More LHWs grants more functions- a single wing is purely defense, multi-wing craft can do a lot more like space-warping, offense, matter transmutation, etc.. Nothing about this implies individual wings are piercable by brute force- indeed, the statements about the one power that exists that can pierce them implies the exact opposite.
Originally posted by Astner
Then why do you need to use up Light Hawk Wings to cancel out others?
Because in that case, they are being used to cancel out the exotic effect- note they weren't even in an offensive mode when that happened (i.e. tenchi turning a wing into a sword or such).
I'd compare it to demagnetizing a magnet. A magnet doesn't use up power to repel stuff with it's field (even with an electromagnet, the energy cost is in making the field, not whether or not the field is currently attracting or repelling anything), and pushing more against it's field doesn't negatively affect it's field strength, but things can still make it not-a-magnet.
Heck, it could also be the effect being used against each other- both wings convert the other wing to the harmless energy form.
Originally posted by Q99
Because in that case, they are being used to cancel out the exotic effect-
Originally posted by Q99
note they weren't even in an offensive mode when that happened (i.e. tenchi turning a wing into a sword or such).
Originally posted by Q99
I'd compare it to demagnetizing a magnet. A magnet doesn't use up power to repel stuff with it's field (even with an electromagnet, the energy cost is in making the field, not whether or not the field is currently attracting or repelling anything), and pushing more against it's field doesn't negatively affect it's field strength, but things can still make it not-a-magnet.
Of course this analogy is completely worthless because it's not based on the source material.
Originally posted by Q99
Heck, it could also be the effect being used against each other- both wings convert the other wing to the harmless energy form.
Keep in mind that we do know that they're composed of finite energy.