3rd Raikage vs Hashirama Senju

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
This:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v45/c415/2.html

Looks much closer to this:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v56/c526/8.html

Than this:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v42/c389/15.html

313

Non sequitur: does not follow. In other words, your point does not actually make your point.

This is the only way you can make your point:

"Until it says, in the manga, "Hashirama had sage mode" or something like it, he does not have sage mode."

Originally posted by dadudemon
Non sequitur: does not follow. In other words, your point does not actually make your point.

This is the only way you can make your point:

"Until it says, in the manga, "Hashirama had sage mode" or something like it, he does not have sage mode."

Neither does yours as 'looks' have nothing to do with this (not to mention, Hashirama never released a seal on his forehead), and every canon jutsu that had the prefix 'Senpō' was done in Sage Mode and with Senjutsu Chakra.

This is the only way you can make your point:

"Until it says, in the manga, "Senpō: jutsu are not tied to Sage Mode" or something like it, Hashirama had Sage Mode".

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Neither does yours as 'looks' have nothing to do with this (not to mention,

Incorrect: both modes required no "being absolutely still for a bit and collecting nature chakra" but both involved releasing chakra that both amped power and speed. They also happen to be relatives and are the only two seen using a "mode" that looked like that that gave them those abilities.

I'm more inclined to believe it was a sage technique (not a sage mode technique) similar to what Naruto used against Kurama. It's just a Sage (the Great Sage) technique (the buddha thing) rather than a Sage Mode technique.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Hashirama never released a seal on his forehead), and every canon jutsu that had the prefix 'Senpō' was done in Sage Mode and with Senjutsu Chakra.

I don't know about that. I do know that Naruto used a Sage sealing technique while not in sage mode:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v53/c499/14.html

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
This is the only way you can make your point:

"Until it says, in the manga, "Senpō: jutsu are not tied to Sage Mode" or something like it, Hashirama had Sage Mode".

Wrong: there is more evidence to believe that what Tsunade had was more accuratley representative of what Hashirama was doing than what Naruto does. No evidence fits what Hashirama had as being a Sage Mode beside a reference to sage.

I totally agree. Until decreed by kishimoto it's just speculatory. Speaking of which, judging by looks the technique is more reminiscent of that tsunade thing where she heals without seals. The translation is whatever imo.

I would have to agree with Dadudemon and PG. It does seem more similar to Tsunade's tech than Naruto's.

I'd be inclined to quickly change my mind if it shows Hashirama sitting still and gathering natural chakra a la Jiraiya, Naruto, and Kabuto.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I don't know about that. I do know that Naruto used a Sage sealing technique while not in sage mode:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v53/c499/14.html

This is the only peice of evidence that has any weight, the rest is speculative.

That said, The only hint that it may be a sage art was Kurama exclaiming "Riduko". And even then, it was done within Naruto's mind, he literally could do anything in there.

But, meh. it doesn't really matter. If Hashirama is capable of pulling colossal buddha's out of his ass with his own chakra, that makes it an even bigger asspull, and raises Hashi's ranking substantially. he'd be closer to the Sage of Six Paths than Madara is now.

Reading through it again, it does just look like he had stored energy in his face tatoo. Once the attacks are over, it disappears and he seems to be near his limit. This looks much like Tsunade's skill, but obviously on a much higher scale.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero

But, meh. it doesn't really matter. If Hashirama is capable of pulling colossal buddha's out of his ass with his own chakra, that makes it an even bigger asspull, and raises Hashi's ranking substantially. he'd be closer to the Sage of Six Paths than Madara is now.

Not really. We already knew he was basically the most "powerful" person barring Rikudo at the time. This just staples it.

Madara is stronger then him now as he is basically both of them with infinite chakra and a stupidly high damage soak.

Madara is ridiculously strong right now. I'm really looking forward to seeing how he gets beat.

Well, without Juubi and Tobi, he could probably be defeated by Naruto and co. imo.

With Tobi and Juubi, It will definitely take the Kages and co. plus Naruto and the alliance.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Incorrect: both modes required no "being absolutely still for a bit and collecting nature chakra" but both involved releasing chakra that both amped power and speed. They also happen to be relatives and are the only two seen using a "mode" that looked like that that gave them those abilities.

I'm more inclined to believe it was a sage technique (not a sage mode technique) similar to what Naruto used against Kurama. It's just a Sage (the Great Sage) technique (the buddha thing) rather than a Sage Mode technique.

Incorrect: You have to prove that Hashirama never stood still or gathered chakra, and you have to prove that he released chakra in a manner similar to Tsunade. To do the former, you have to show me a scan with Hashirama dancing about prior to using his jutsu. To do the latter, you have to show me a marking on his forehead that disappeared when he released his chakra, which caused other markings on his face to appear. To do all of this, you have to pull them out of your ass. uhuh

Joins his hands as if he is preparing for a jutsu, which means he's gathering chakra, then stands completely still, all whilst talking to Madara (You can see that Hashirama's eye has changed. Remind you of anyone else? I hope it isn't Tsunade)
Conversing with someone , does not prevent you from gathering natural energy.

There goes your argument.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I don't know about that. I do know that Naruto used a Sage sealing technique while not in sage mode:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v53/c499/14.html

I don't know about that. I do know that his sealing tech never had the word "Senpō" precede it, and thus, it does not counter my point.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Wrong: there is more evidence to believe that what Tsunade had was more accuratley representative of what Hashirama was doing than what Naruto does. No evidence fits what Hashirama had as being a Sage Mode beside a reference to sage.

Wrong: It is not a mere reference to 'Sage' like Kurama mentioning the Sage of the Six Paths, but direct evidence that Senjutsu chakra was used to enhance his Mokuton jutsu. Every other jutsu with a name that has had the word "Senpō/Sage Art" precede it, has been a jutsu enhanced by Senjutsu chakra. It is the same principle that applies to the more common varieties of Katon/Fuuton/Raiton/Doton/Suiton/etc. which means that the jutsu is a part of particular class.

#1 #2 #3 #4 #5 (i) #5 (ii) # 6 # 7

Hashirama can create and use Senjutsu Chakra, and since Senjutsu chakra can only be used if one is in a Sage Mode, or if one is almost a stone statue (which he wasn't) he had a variant of Sage Mode. Combined with the fact that he stood still and showed signs of a transformation (eyes, markings) makes it all but certain that Hashirama used Sage Mode.

This is not debatable. It is directly shown in the manga, and you have brought nothing to the table but speculation and your 'inclinations' to try and disprove it. Come back when and if Kishi decides to retcon this. Otherwise, stop wasting my semi-precious KMC time. uhuh

Heck, for all we know, Tsunade's Byakugou tech may be a cheap copy of Hashirama's Sage Mode, much like Juugo's transformation is a cheap copy of Sage Mode.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
I totally agree. Until decreed by kishimoto it's just speculatory. Speaking of which, judging by looks the technique is more reminiscent of that tsunade thing where she heals without seals. The translation is whatever imo.

Judging by looks, Black Panther is more reminiscent of Amaterasu, as opposed to other Raiton techs.

And the Third still gets whooped.

Originally posted by socool8520
Reading through it again, it does just look like he had stored energy in his face tatoo. Once the attacks are over, it disappears and he seems to be near his limit. This looks much like Tsunade's skill, but obviously on a much higher scale.

Where the hell is this marking on Hashirama's face that disappears when chakra is released, like Tsunade's?

Or am I reading a different manga?

Originally posted by Damborgson
Madara is ridiculously strong right now. I'm really looking forward to seeing how he gets beat.

9 words: Naruto and Sasuke holding hands

Spoiler:
combining Chidori and Rasengan

stoned

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Where the hell is this marking on Hashirama's face that disappears when chakra is released, like Tsunade's?

Or am I reading a different manga?

Right here http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v63/c626/7.html
It's even in the same spot as Tsunade's diamond

Then it's gone after the buddha thing
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v63/c626/10.html

Originally posted by socool8520
Right here http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v63/c626/7.html
It's even in the same spot as Tsunade's diamond

Then it's gone after the buddha thing
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v63/c626/10.html

This shows the diamond marking on Tsunade's forehead disappearing before her jutsu is activated.

And that's enough of a difference for you not to think the technique is similar? Come on man.

Also This http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c577/2.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c577/3.html

Looks very similar to this http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c621/13.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c621/13.html
Both tattoos appear when they are going all out and using the stored chakra.

That is way more similar than any sage tech similarity imo

Originally posted by socool8520
And that's enough of a difference for you not to think the technique is similar? Come on man.

Also This http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c577/2.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c577/3.html

Looks very similar to this http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c621/13.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c621/13.html
Both tattoos appear when they are going all out and using the stored chakra.

That is way more similar than any sage tech similarity imo

If markings on the face is enough for you to think the techniques are similar, then yes, that is enough of a difference to make me think the techniques are dissimilar. The mere fact that Tsunade has to release the seal on her forehead to use that technique, whereas Hashirama does no such thing, is enough evidence that the two are not similar like you people think they are.

Dude, 'looks' on their own mean little here. On my side, I have: Transformed eyes, the words 'Sage Art' preceding Hashirama's jutsu which means that Senjutsu chakra was used, appearance of markings around the eyes, and a massive increase in the size of wooden constructs that Hashirama made.

On your side, you have: vague similarities in appearance, and a familial relationship.

It's much more logical given their blood relation, the similarities in technique, and the general location of where the tech emanates.

His eyes changed a little. Nothing compared to the animal like changes of the three real sages we know of. Obviously the size of wood techs coincides with the great release of chakra he and Tsuanade are capable of doing after using their tech.

A released Byakugou & the Sage mode are similar in visual apperance. that is true. However, there are also differences. Byakugou requires the semi-permanent marking on the forhead.

http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/v63/c621/6.html
http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/v63/c621/8.html
http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/v63/c621/9.html
http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/v63/c621/10.html
http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/v63/c621/11.html
http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/v63/c621/12.html
http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/v63/c621/13.html

As you can see, Hashirama never had any markings prior to activating "Sage Mode".

Evidence point #2: Byakugou does not allow for the use of Sage Arts and never did. Tsunade never once used a single sage art during any of her Byakugou activations. However, Senpô: Mokuton: Shin Sûsenju is definitely a Sage Art.

Hypothesis: it could be that Hashirama's wood release was the key factor in him learning how to absorb nature energy. In essence, trees are the most still(unmoving) living organisms on the planet, and they tap more directly into natural energies from the planet (they absorb nutrients from the Earth and solar energy from the Sun via photosynthesis), it is possible that Mokuton allowed Hashirama to tap into it directly, however, this is just a theory, so take it with a grain of salt.

Originally posted by socool8520
It's much more logical given their blood relation, the similarities in technique, and the general location of where the tech emanates.

His eyes changed a little. Nothing compared to the animal like changes of the three real sages we know of. Obviously the size of wood techs coincides with the great release of chakra he and Tsuanade are capable of doing after using their tech.

It isn't logical at all. Tsunade's technique involves gathering chakra over a long period of time, storing it up in the seal on her forehead, and then at some later point in time, releasing it for her use, in the process, destroying the seal. Hashirama has no such seal on his forehead. Given that it is Kishi, yes, the techniques likely do have some link and it is entirely possible that Byakugou is a watered down version of Hashirama's Sage Mode, but based on the evidence in the manga, Hashirama used Sage Mode, not Byakugou.

What? Naruto does not change by a marked degree when he uses Sage Mode. It is just his eyes that change, and the markings that appear around his eyes. Which is what happened to Hashirama.
There, 2 identical appearance-based factors between their Sage Modes. More than what exists between Tsunade's Byakugou and Hashirama's Sage Mode.