Ironman 3

Started by Slowpoke16 pages

Iron Man 3 pissed many people off because of the antagonist, despite his showed his melee combat skill, calling himself the real Mandarin and showed his Dragon Tattoo, not even the comic Mandarin has that. But many fans didn’t buy it. The reason is very simple and understandable

I already criticized it enough. Of course, the film does not have to follow the comic as long as it has its own good story. I will try to put away the comics and discuss about the real antagonist, Killian.

In the comic, Killian only showed up for 2 pages then committed suicide, his persona in the movie is totally original.

His goal is quite clear.

1. To make the Extremis virus flawless and use it to create an army of super humans.

2. To control the U.S. government and the terrorist organization together.

3. To avenge Tony’s humiliation.

Overall these are quite ambitious goal.

To rule is more difficult than to destroy, beside raw power, he would need to let some people see the benefit and work for him. Killian and his mutants are powerful but they could not conquer US or the world directly, not yet. That’s why he tried to control the United States to help his research and increase the number of the mutants.

Antagonist with such a goal needs to be really really smart. Beside the fighting skill for Superhero movie villain, he also has to be a master manipulator. Unlike Bane or Joker, he wants to rule rather than create chaos or total destruction, so he has to be more careful and hide his true face as good as possible.

But in this movie, Killian clearly showed he does not have such intelligence and management skill to be the antagonist who could handle such goal. It does not even fit his character.

He paid Pepper a visit in the beginning of the movie, along with that bald guy. This showed he could not calm his personal emotion. He does not love Pepper, he was just thinking of "Now I’m rich and powerful, I’m going to mess up with your girl!” Would Pepper be interested? Since he wants to take revenge on Tony and spent effort on it, he should be very clear about it. And knowing that Tony is Iron Man and a technology expert, isn’t it risky to come to his girlfriend and introduce his product? If he really wants to make a try to let Tony work with him, he could just get someone else to meet Pepper to not make himself connected with the project. That would be much safer. But he didn’t choose the safer and smarter way, the reason has been told before. He was there to mess with Pepper because she’s Iron Man’s girlfriend.

Next, he arranged a series of missions for his servants, but it wasn’t executed well, actually too bad. Even for a superhero villain and evil organization.

Let me talk about this bald guy, It’s obvious that he is the no.1 thug of Killian, that’s why he was sent to do so many important missions. However, remember the government was alarmed with so many terrorist attacks inside and outside US. Why did he choose to bring the bald guy with him when he paid Pepper the visit? Won’t people recognize his face and affect his later missions? When he was doing this missions he also doesn’t use any disguise. Happy suspected him later because he saw him in the hall before.

And the performance of the bald guy was quite…unexpected. He was supposed to get the stuff from that poor guy who later became the bomb. No doubt he should keep this as secret as possible, his boss created the Mandarin partly to cover the accident of the experiments.

However the bald guy, showed his power, publicly, on the street. WOW. He could try to run away, or run to somewhere then finish Happy. I’m not sure is the explosion an accident or planned by Killian. Either way the bald guy’s reaction is very stupid. If he didn’t expect the bomb, why did he use the power before so many people? How is he going to explain it? Killing everyone to silence their mouth? That does not seem like a plan. If he knew the guy is going to explode, why didn’t he run away? There also could be survivors since people already started to run when he fought Happy. After the explosion, he was actually knocked out and took a little while to recover, when the police could be there any minute and capture him. Strangely nobody was there when he waked up, even though they should be fully alarmed since many attacks happened before.

If the US government or Tony could think even a little about it, they would ask the survivors and check what happened from the scene. It’s easy to find out the bald guy was there, then he would be identified to be a AIM member since people saw him in the hall. Killian’s AIM would be exposed, and his plan would be ruined. Especially he talked about the project with Pepper, that is another evidence.

Of course, other villains all made mistake and sometimes retarded mistakes. But usually they only make mistake in the final battle, or something like spare the protagonist. Even if they made mistake in the first half it’s usually not very big. Well in Iron Man 3, the antagonist and his top servant made such fatal mistake in their first move, well that’s really bad.

The bald guy is quite powerful, but he really didn’t have the brain to be the top assassin of AIM, and obviously he didn’t learn from his mistakes in the next mission, glad the good guys also didn’t.

He and that pretty woman were trying to grab the files to keep the experiments as secret, so it should be done as quiet as possible. And what did we see? The female assassin used her fire hand against ordinary people, and keep chasing Tony for a while. The bald guy burned down the water tank and grabbed the kid to threaten Tony. Their goal is to prevent the experiment and virus as secret. And why are they using the power of the virus publicly? Especially the bald guy is a known member of AIM. His attack on Tony would immediately be linked with those terrorist helicopters which attacked Tony’s home. Are they trying to cover the experiment or let people know about it? The female assassin totally could try to get close and ambush Tony, anything would better than show her power publicly to attack. They are the elite assassins of a top level evil organization, but we don’t see them have the brain of an average level criminal.

Mr. Bald guy here again survived, not saying that he is not dead, but like last time, this time he was knocked out by Tony. But still he didn’t get noticed or captured and still got away, after he and the female assassin created such as big mess. And no one, including that kid report about him to help the government to further investigate and identify him. This man really is lucky, he played with fire twice and still didn’t ruin his boss’ plan. I guess Killian picked him because of his luck.

From these two missions, we can see these mutant assassins are all powerful, but lack the calm mind to do missions without being noticed. Especially Killian wanted to control both sides, which means they have to hide their purpose really really well. But looks like these assassins love to show their power publicly, maybe because they suddenly gained such power and it corrupted their mind. Not everyone knows to not be driven by their power. It’s quite understandable but Killian didn’t try to control his minions to ensure the plan goes well. He even did similar thing himself in the beginning.

Now we see the funny thing, Killian’s character development is very reasonable compare to the flash in the beginning. His minions are also understandable. However they really didn’t show the mind, the skill to create and expand such a powerful evil organization. How did they make it? It would require a calm and intelligent leader who could put reason before personal emotion and control his minions well, but we don’t see Killian fit it or even try to do it.

In addition, that pretty scientist, Dr. Maya’s action also showed Killian is not successful as a leader. She invented the virus, she knew Killian was doing those experiments. That means she’s very crucial to his plan, if she was caught by anyone, then that means GG Killian’s plan. And to such an important figure, he didn’t even keep an eye on her, let her run to Tony and almost got killed by his helicopter’s missile? She and Tony are the biggest hope for the perfection of Extremis, and he let the helicopters shot, almost killed them both without knowing who was there? WOW that’s really stupid.

Since he needs Tony to work for him on the virus, why did he inject Pepper before Tony agreed? Even if Tony started to work on the virus, it’s highly possible that Pepper would die before he made it perfect. Won’t that let Tony hate him more and disagree to do so? Later he killed Maya when she used her life to threaten him, well it’s not the wisest move, and he could agree first then think about an idea to keep them both to work. I think he also takes Maya as his trophy and was enraged when she turned to Tony’s side. But compare to the previous mistakes, it’s not that dumb. So here goes one of his most important scientists.

The virus is the core of his plan and it’s still not perfect. Allow me to take a speculation. I believe the bodies could handle the virus forever, it might still cause explosion to those “successful” people.

The ambush on Iron Patriot is probably the best move they made in the whole movie. Later they succeed on the president after the security didn’t to check on the true face of Iron Patriot, yeah.
And if they did, the bald guy’s face would be seen and AIM’s plan would be revealed again, nice.

Overall, in fact, Killian’s characterization from the beginning of the end is quite nice and very reasonable. He was snubbed and humiliated by Tony and swore to take revenge. He’s a "I am powerful and rich now I’m going to humiliate you!" type of villain. But put him on the position of the antagonist who could manipulate both sides, create so many terrorist cells, keep the experiment as secret and control his minions well, is a bad move, it’s too much for his character to handle. He could not control his minions to do the job well, he could not even control his own emotion when he has to. However, if he was characterized to be a real great manipulator, that would not fit the Killian we saw in the flashback because it’s too big of a change.

So his character was designed and developed well, but he was given the wrong role. If someone else is the real criminal mind behind everything and Killian is just a newly recruited servant, the story would be much better, and connected better with Iron Man 1’s Ten Rings. Who would be the best? The Mandarin.

So even if we forget about the comic, put Killian on the chair of the antagonist is still a bad move because he does not fit it.

(It was too long so I have to make 2 posts)

Originally posted by Based
Well that's why the VP was arrested in the movie. Because he was willing to do what Killian wanted to get in power. Also it's for his daughter or something who's missing a leg.

When I saw his girl, what came to mind was he was doing it for his girl more than for power. It could be power that wants but it seemed that it was more for his girl the way he put his hand on her shoulders as it's being revealed that she was an amputee.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I said "No, he has super kung fu and can fight Iron Man in hand to hand combat unaided and also he has ten magic rings." They all thought that was the stupidest thing they've ever heard. [b]Those are the people this change was made for. [/B]

Really?........ 😬

but yet its okay to accept an alien invasion and also Norse gods walking around

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing

IM 3 - mad scientist/businessman wanted revenge on Stark

That' only a little bit.

@slowpoke as much as I enjoyed reading your post......it really does not matter as a movie does not require that much..."dwelling inside"..or I can just say...your overlooking into this 🤨

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Point?

I loved the first movie. I actually enjoy the second movie. I don't care when things are changed to suit the story as it's being adapted to fit the cinema - I just don't feel like that was the case here. I loved the movie before the twist. I loved the film after the twist. That twist just wasn't needed. It destroyed the character they had been building up to.

To put it an example that people might understand:

If the Dark Knight had been about

Spoiler:
the Joker being insane until you just realized that the Joker was an actor the Riddler had hired to throw people of his tail, people would get mad.
Spoilers because it's exactly what happened in IM3.

If Deadpool had a movie where he was as serious as Scott Summers, people would get mad.

Meh. I'm entitled to think the movie was great besides that (major) issue.

Rotten Tomatoes score has stabilized in the high 70's, after a couple of weeks. No parallel to Green Lantern here, critically or financially.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/iron_man_3/

Well, there is a parallel with The Dark Knight Returns from last year, because we found out after all that epic buildup, Bane wasn't the real mastermind after all. I thought it weakened the movie to have him just be another soldier following Talia's orders, but that was me.

Mandarin's been a problematic villain to figure out for some time, because of his roots as a Fu Manchu caricature. I think this leaves the door open for someone else to get part of the Mandarin's power and persona in the future while bringing something new. Marvel has been adept at fusing a couple of villains together to make them and their motivations work in the greater story arc.

If people were disappointed with how Tony's narration came to an end in the post credit scene, they should watch Shane Black's directorial debut Kiss Kiss Bang Bang (also with Downey, and it's a hoot.) He pulls the same narrative tricks in there; plus being yet another movie he sets during Christmas!

Solid 8/10 from me. Most serious James Bond vibe yet and great humour.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
It wasn't a bad movie by any means,

I wish I could say as much about Nolan's overrated Batman movies...

Originally posted by TheHulk
@slowpoke as much as I enjoyed reading your post......it really does not matter as a movie does not require that much..."dwelling inside"..or I can just say...your overlooking into this 🤨

Well they ruined the Mandarin so they have to give something better, but we got shit.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
No, please enlighten me about the point of this movie other than another white guy pissed off at Tony and taking revenge.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
I don't think he did.

Tony's story arc was great. The dialogue was great. Even the general plot coming into the mid-way point was great (AIM made Extremis, funded by Mandarin). We didn't need magic ring. The terrorist angle was good enough for me. Enhance him with a better version of Extremis and I wouldn't care that it's not his power set. Just don't punk the guy out by being an actor.

The movie itself was great - I just don't think the Mandarin's twist should have been executed. You traded a villain (as portrayed in the film) with layers for a white guy who wanted a trophy to prove he was better than Stark. The entire second half, viewed from the lens of the villain, collapses IMO. Tony's story (his arc and transformation) was perfect - I just think that same transformation could have taken place with the Mandarin as the final villain.

A villain with layers? A middle eastern mad man who hates America. Real deep. You say you would have been happy if the Mandarin was a terrorist enhanced by Extremis? Well... that's what you got. Aldrich Killian was the Mandarin, and he was a terrorist, just a corporate terrorist instead of "I live in a cave" religious zealot one. The idea of a cooperation with military weapons contracts inventing a terrorist organization and using appropriated iconography from various cultures as a means to distract the population and government from their unethical and dangerous experiments while they operate behind the scenes with impunity is scary, and much more interesting than a run of the mill terrorist, even if the guy in charge happens to be white... which is apparently an issue.

Also Killian wanted to partner with Stark Industries to get approved human trials for Extremis. He as grateful to Tony for teaching him the value of anonymity, he said as much in the movie. Killian wasn't out for revenge or to humiliate Tony, he wanted to work with Stark... but Tony calling out the Mandarin on tv, and Pepper turning down his offer forced his hand. Tony inserted himself in AIM's cross hairs, investigating what happened to Happy, but he was never the target or goal.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
A villain with layers? A middle eastern mad man who hates America. Real deep. You say you would have been happy if the Mandarin was a terrorist enhanced by Extremis? Well... that's what you got. Aldrich Killian was the Mandarin, and he was a terrorist, just a corporate terrorist instead of "I live in a cave" religious zealot one. The idea of a cooperation with military weapons contracts inventing a terrorist organization and using appropriated iconography from various cultures as a means to distract the population and government from their unethical and dangerous experiments while they operate behind the scenes with impunity is scary, and much more interesting than a run of the mill terrorist, even if the guy in charge happens to be white... which is apparently an issue.

Also Killian wanted to partner with Stark Industries to get approved human trials for Extremis. He as grateful to Tony for teaching him the value of anonymity, he said as much in the movie. Killian wasn't out for revenge or to humiliate Tony, he wanted to work with Stark... but Tony calling out the Mandarin on tv, and Pepper turning down his offer forced his hand. Tony inserted himself in AIM's cross hairs, investigating what happened to Happy, but he was never the target or goal.

Well his moves are much dumber than those corporate terrorists. His first move already could ruin his plan if the government is a bit smart.

If he wanted to work with Tony, why did he use the helicopters to attack him, which could kill both him and Maya? Why didn't he ask for Tony's help in the first one since his Ten Rings captured Tony, and the Ten Rings clearly were working with Iron Mongor?

Originally posted by Slowpoke
Well his moves are much dumber than those corporate terrorists. His first move already could ruin his plan if the government is a bit smart.

I don't know what you are a referring too...

Originally posted by Slowpoke
If he wanted to work with Tony, why did he use the helicopters to attack him, which could kill both him and Maya? Why didn't he ask for Tony's help in the first one since his Ten Rings captured Tony, and the Ten Rings clearly were working with Iron Mongor?

Because Tony forced his hand. He challenged the Mandarin on live television, so the Mandarin needed to respond or else he'd appear impotent and weak.

Because he didn't need Stark's help, he needed Stark Industries help... which he would have gotten if Stark died and Obadiah Stane assumed control of the company. He wanted Stark Industries to join the think tank and help him push Extremis for human trials and an eventual launch (that's why he went to see Pepper and not to "mess with Stark's girl," as you surmised), he didn't want Tony's help with the science, he wanted Stark Industries to legitimize AIM so he could get the ball rolling and accomplish his end game.

Originally posted by Slowpoke
Well his moves are much dumber than those corporate terrorists. His first move already could ruin his plan if the government is a bit smart.

If he wanted to work with Tony, why did he use the helicopters to attack him, which could kill both him and Maya? Why didn't he ask for Tony's help in the first one since his Ten Rings captured Tony, and the Ten Rings clearly were working with Iron Mongor?

- He wanted to work with his company to a point (that is, Stark further weaponizes Extremis and he reaps the benefits) but would just as soon have Tony out of the way.

- Tony publicly threatened the Mandarin, forcing Killian's hand and making him react in a way that was very public and violent as expected.

- Maya is the one who really wanted Tony on board, because she was worried about the longterm stability of Extremis on the body. He helped her figure some things out at the Bern conference in 1999. She went to see Tony behind Killian's back, telling him later how it was for his benefit ("One day you'll burn too hot" she warned him.)

- If he asked him for help in the first one, it would have been revealing everything about himself and what A.I.M. was doing. He was benefiting by staying in the shadows, and eventually created Ben Kingsley's character to be the public face.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I don't know what you are a referring too...

Because Tony forced his hand. He challenged the Mandarin on live television, so the Mandarin needed to respond or else he'd appear impotent and weak.

Because he didn't need Stark's help, he needed Stark Industries help... which he would have gotten if Stark died and Obadiah Stane assumed control of the company. He wanted Stark Industries to join the think tank and help him push Extremis for human trials and an eventual launch (that's why he went to see Pepper and not to "mess with Stark's girl," as you surmised), he didn't want Tony's help with the science, he wanted Stark Industries to legitimize AIM so he could get the ball rolling and accomplish his end game.

I wrote all of them in the long post.

But he did want Tony's help, and he later tried to let him do it. And no doubt he needs Maya's help but the attack almost killed her. So to launch a respond, he almost killed his most important assistant?

I explained before, if he just wanted to talk about business, he should let someone else to visit Pepper rather than go by himself to avoid himself being exposed, he also brought the bald guy with him and let many people saw his face.

Originally posted by roughrider
- He wanted to work with his company to a point (that is, Stark further weaponizes Extremis and he reaps the benefits) but would just as soon have Tony out of the way.

- Tony publicly threatened the Mandarin, forcing Killian's hand and making him react in a way that was very public and violent as expected.

- Maya is the one who really wanted Tony on board, because she was worried about the longterm stability of Extremis on the body. He helped her figure some things out at the Bern conference in 1999. She went to see Tony behind Killian's back, telling him later how it was for his benefit ("One day you'll burn too hot" she warned him.)

- If he asked him for help in the first one, it would have been revealing everything about himself and what A.I.M. was doing. He was benefiting by staying in the shadows, and eventually created Ben Kingsley's character to be the public face.

But that attack almost killed Maya, who was very important to him. This also showed he didn't put an eye on his most important "partner", who knew almost everything about his plan.

What? Tony was captured, nobody would know it beside his minions and Tony, if he really worried about being exposed, why did he go by himself to introduce Pepper the technology? That's way more dangerous.

Originally posted by Slowpoke
I wrote all of them in the long post.

But he did want Tony's help, and he later tried to let him do it. And no doubt he needs Maya's help but the attack almost killed her. So to launch a respond, he almost killed his most important assistant?

I explained before, if he just wanted to talk about business, he should let someone else to visit Pepper rather than go by himself to avoid himself being exposed, he also brought the bald guy with him and let many people saw his face.

I don't think he knew Mia was there when he attacked Stark's mansion. AIM needed the head of Stark Industries to help them, and at that point he had the leverage he needed to get Tony to do what he wanted, and according to Mia he needed Stark's help to perfect the formula. Also... he killed Mia so she wasn't that important at the end of the day.

He was the head of the think tank and had a working relationship with Pepper. Why would he send someone else? Him going nets him the best chances of a favorable outcome. Billionaires generally travel with body guards. Stark wasn't his enemy, he didn't expect a paranoid security officer trailing his body guard on a whim.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I don't think he knew Mia was there when he attacked Stark's mansion. AIM needed the head of Stark Industries to help them, and at that point he had the leverage he needed to get Tony to do what he wanted, and according to Mia he needed Stark's help to perfect the formula. Also... he killed Mia so she wasn't that important at the end of the day.

He was the head of the think tank and had a working relationship with Pepper. Why would he send someone else? Him going nets him the best chances of a favorable outcome. Billionaires generally travel with body guards. Stark wasn't his enemy, he didn't expect a paranoid security officer trailing his body guard on a whim.

So he didn't keep his eye on his most important assistant, who knew most of the plans of him, let her run out freely, and almost let her tell Tony he was behind it? That's extremely stupid for a guy who wanted to control US.

The core of his plan is the virus, and he killed one who invented it and could perfect the formula, and tried to kill another who could do such thing, when any of his men could explode in the future, including himself? That's quite stupid

Because it could get him exposed, just send someone who's not directly linked wit him to try it first, if they didn't like it then he would not get exposed, if they did then he could show himself up. The worst thing that could happen to him, is his plan being exposed.

No, the bald guy also did his mission at the same time, showing his power before the eyes of many people twice, without making any disguise. Many people saw him in the hall when Killian visited Pepper. If the government is a bit smart, ask the survivors to know this bald guy, get his image and release it out. Then those who saw him in the hall would be able to identify him, then GG.

Originally posted by Slowpoke
So he didn't keep his eye on his most important assistant, who knew most of the plans of him, let her run out freely, and almost let her tell Tony he was behind it? That's extremely stupid for a guy who wanted to control US.

The core of his plan is the virus, and he killed one who invented it and could perfect the formula, and tried to kill another who could do such thing, when any of his men could explode in the future, including himself? That's quite stupid

Because it could get him exposed, just send someone who's not directly linked wit him to try it first, if they didn't like it then he would not get exposed, if they did then he could show himself up. The worst thing that could happen to him, is his plan being exposed.

No, the bald guy also did his mission at the same time, showing his power before the eyes of many people twice, without making any disguise. Many people saw him in the hall when Killian visited Pepper. If the government is a bit smart, ask the survivors to know this bald guy, get his image and release it out. Then those who saw him in the hall would be able to identify him, then GG.

They were partners he didn't suspect her of treason, nor did he have any reason too. She was devoted to the cause same has he was.

I don't think he want to control the US, he wanted to get his drug into trials, and the vice president having a daughter who was missing a leg, saw the benefit of that was willing to get in bed with Killian to that end. There is no indication that Killian want to rule the world or that the Vice President would have been a pawn, merely that they had a like mind in getting the Extremis into the hands of the public.

He killed her because he had Tony, he only needed one of them, and according to Mia, Tony was of more use then she was. Killing her in front of Tony makes his point loud and clear.

The Bald guy showed powers after Killian met with Pepper, because his buddy od'ed on the drug and exploded. He wasn't running around blasting people in public until after the meeting.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
They were partners he didn't suspect her of treason, nor did he have any reason too. She was devoted to the cause same has he was.

I don't think he want to control the US, he wanted to get his drug into trials, and the vice president having a daughter who was missing a leg, saw the benefit of that was willing to get in bed with Killian to that end. There is no indication that Killian want to rule the world or that the Vice President would have been a pawn, merely that they had a like mind in getting the Extremis into the hands of the public.

He killed her because he had Tony, he only needed one of them, and according to Mia, Tony was of more use then she was. Killing her in front of Tony makes his point loud and clear.

The Bald guy showed powers after Killian met with Pepper, because his buddy od'ed on the drug and exploded. He wasn't running around blasting people in public until after the meeting.

Well as a guy who planned for such a big scheme, he has to put an eye on such a important figure who could ruin his plan easily.

He did say he wanted to control US and the terrorists at the same time, even if he didn't, he was using both sides to work for him, that means he has to be really really careful to not expose himself.

No, killing her only makes Tony further disagree to work for him, he could do that to her, then of course he would do it to Tony and possibly Pepper later. It's not like Tony is afraid of death, he is Iron Man and everyone saw what he tried to do in the end of The Avengers.

It doesn't matter, once the police and the government know his existence and get a picture of him from those who saw him showing the power, those who saw him in the hall would be able to identity him out. "Hey that's the guy we saw in the hall..""He's an AIM member" then GG Killian. That's why bad guys need to disguise themselves. 😛

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Because Tony forced his hand. He challenged the Mandarin on live television, so the Mandarin needed to respond or else he'd appear impotent and weak.

So what? The Mandarin was nothing more than a cover for Killian's schemes. Why would it matter if the Mandarin appeared weak?

Here is a poll on what people thought at CBR. Kinda mixed.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=poll&id=147&view=results&msg=voted