Mace Windu and Darth Tyranus vs Hero of Tython and Emperor Vitiate

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader's "delicate electrical systems" is underneath the armor. And Palpatine was explaining what his lightning can do to Vader, and Marek is no Palpatine, obviously.

Are you suggesting that we dismiss Vader's feat of tanking Marek's lightning?

Except for the box on his chest that regulates his life-support systems. :I This was specifically brought up in Rise of Darth Vader because Vaders style is partially built around protecting that box and its pretty damn vulnerable.

No, just that its ****ing stupid.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
BTW, how powerful were the jedi on the strike team? Were they said to be the strongest (force-wise), or just the order's best? Can you give the quote if you have time? I remember you posted the quote before but I don't remember it exactly word for word.

One quote says that they were the 'most powerful' Jedi and the other says they were the 'strongest, most resolute' jedi.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
http://youtu.be/UazvNpUthKY

The top part of Vader's helmet that overaches his mask is visually melted down.

No, I really can't see that.

I might be able to answer the rest tomorrow, but no promises. I am working.

Team 1: 6/10 if there's no mind domination.

Team 2 easily.

Originally posted by Based
Team 1: 6/10 if there's no mind domination.

The Emperor has never been shown to dominate people of Dooku and Windu's calibre. You could convince me he could mind dominate people like Kit Fisto and even powerful Telepaths like Saesee Tiin, but certainly not Mace Windu and Count Dooku, who if the Emperor tried that on could either.
1. Skewer him
2. Put his excellency on his ass.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vitiate required some effort and two attacks in order to successfully overpower the strike team. Palpatine effortlessly reduced three dark prophets to skeleton with a single attack, using only one hand. Maybe the prophets are not as good as the jedi strike team, but the ease in which Palpatine killed them with his lightning, and the damage he caused, is arguably comparable. There is no way you can say one feat is miles ahead of the other. And you suggested that Vitiate has the greatest lightning, which is arguable, is all I'm saying. I'm more impressed with Palpatine's.

A Strike Team made up of the strongest Jedi in the galaxy who were actively resisting Vitiate vs 3 acolytes of unknown strength who were taken by surprise with no indication they resisted. Don't get me wrong, its impressive that he managed to char 3 people to mere skeletons, definately top-tier, but it can't be compared to Vitiates feat since theres no indication of resistance. Without it, they're just ordinary people, and would be affected by it in the same way as anyone else. I see Vitiates feat as on another level because he actually overpowered four of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy at once. Palpatine merely killed 3 people.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader only questions them and threatens them for using Maul against him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Why wouldn't they be taught in force defense (which is one of the most basic applications of the force)? Prophets of the dark side were originally a sith sect formed by Darth Millennial. And they were obviously the ones who trained the cloned Maul in the ways of the force. Palpatine also entrusted the prophets of the dark side with the training of his dark side adepts.

I conceed this point. I wasn't aware that they had actually trained other Force users like Jerec, so they most likely were versed in defensive techniques. When you termed them as alchemists I assumed them to just be that. However, I still stand by my point that theres no evidence suggesting they had any resistance raised and that even if they did, that theres nothing indicating that it could be applied to Sidious' attack, which was a surprise. As far as I know, Force defenses are not omnidirectional.

Although if Maul was cloned, I doubt he'd need training. The Starkiller clones didn't seem to require it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
True, but we know the creature busted through Sidious sith crystal, completely destroying it. The monster was obviously pretty durable, and huge, and yet Palpatine reduced it to almost nothing.

The crystal didn't seem to be very thick. Like thin glass at best. Plus it did have huge tubes sticking out of it. I doubt breaking it is much proof for durability. I'm not denying that reducing it to ash is not impressive, but not on Vitiates level IMO.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That's not true. It depends on what you're stronger at. Obviously Yoda, despite being a physical beast when enhanced with the force, lacked the strength to hold on to his saber, whereas he did not lack the strength and mastery in the force to absorb Sidious lightning.

Er no. Absorbing the lightning with your hands still obviously has the same impact that absorbing it with a lightsaber does. Theres still physical force being applied, as shown by Yoda taking a step back and being pushed back by Sidious' lightning when he was absorbing it. His arm is also pushed back by Dooku's in AotC.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What advantage did Yoda have to capitalize on? Yoda jumped away because obviously he felt threatened by Sidious's lightning.

Patently false, as he wasn't afraid to attack him later, in a worse situation. Here is the exerpt from the script:

'YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

YODA: Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.

YODA jumps to a lower Senate Pod. PALPATINE reaches out with one hand, and a Senate pod is released from its mooring and heads toward the Podium. PALPATINE uses the Force to hurl pod after pod at YODA, who ducks and jumps from one flying pod to another.'

Yoda was pushing his lightning back and still had his lightsaber. He had every advantage to capitalise on. Him leaping away is utter stupidity, likely why Lucas chose not to put it in the movie.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Or a better explanation is because Yoda used both hands then, but only used one at the start.

But that makes no sense. If he was 'underestimating' Sidious, then why does he look like he just shat his pants when Sidious attacks him. Theres a clear look of fear on his face. And since he was afraid, why only lift one hand? Both are on his cane, in the exact same place, it would be just as easy to lift both as it would one and if it is more effective with 2 hands as you're implying, why not do it? Yoda isn't some cocky *******, he knows that the fate of the galaxy rests on this fight and that Sidious has just murdered the entire Jedi Order. Theres no reason for him to be so arrogant. Furthermore, there is absolutely no evidence that he did try to block it. There is no mention or hint of it in the script, the book or the movie. What you're suggesting is only speculation.

And if this is the case..... then I fail to see whats so impressive about overwhelming a Yoda only using one hand, who was underestimating his opponent. 😬

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
My point is, Sidious was able to rip Yoda's lightsaber completely out of his hands, and nearly overwhelmed Windu's defenses while pretending to lose his powers, whereas both Revan and HoT were more than capable of handling Vitiate's lightning with their sabers (HoT did so while on a dark side nexus, which dimishes a lightsiders powers), which, IMO, suggests Palpatine's lightning is stronger than Vitiate's, especially considering that Yoda is possibly one of the most physically strongest force users in the mythos.

And I believe that I've debunked your point quite thoroughly.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And the fact that Yoda managed to handle and redirect Palpatine's lightning, also suggests that his mastery in absorbing lightning is greater than Revan's

Only if we say that Sidious' lightning is greater or equal to Vitiates. Which it isn't. Plus Yoda only barely did so.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd forgotten about that. I apologise, but I started working that week and hadn't the time or energy to respond to a full-length argument.

I have.

No, you provided the stock 'you are now in this area' transition. I highly doubt its an actual canon cutscene. Theres no reason for them to stop running when they did other than to justify why the player regains control there. And it ignores the possibility that Vitiate continued to collapse the temple after the 'cutscene' ends.

Whats the point of asking this question when you know my answer? It seems instead of offering a rebuttal you're just blustering about team 1's leet skillz.

Revan and Malak, and he demonstrated the ability in Revan. Can we move on from this? This 'point' was debunked a while ago.

Neither are offensively superior to Vitiate, and even combined, I highly doubt they can get past the HoT fast enough to interrupt Vitiate.

He already has:

YouTube video

First, these douchebags yelling in during the video are pretty annoying. 😬
Second, Braga is already mind-fvcked here. He is torn between light and dark. Naturally, he will be confused and an easy target for a Jedi mind trick.

You're obviously going to cry that Tol Braga isn't in their league,

but given the fight he gives the HoT right before they defeat Vitiate, that he's the only one who resisted the Emperors first lightning and independently broke free from his mind control other than Revan and that he's the leader of the most powerful Jedi strike team as well as the one the Emperor trusted with his most important plan over all the Sith Lords he commands, I wouldn't say that he's far off.

Either way, can you provide evidence for Dooku or Windu's telepathic resistance/ability? Because if not, you have no proof that they could resist it.

But you admit that Vitiate can, right?

Mace and Dooku take a clear majority IMHO.

Nephthys
Revan and Malak, and he demonstrated the ability in Revan. Can we move on from this? This 'point' was debunked a while ago.

ermm

I can't speak for anyone else, but I know for a fact that I exhaustively demonstrated multiple times, using direct quotes from the relevant source material, that Revan and Malak were being led into a trap and that there is no evidence of Vitiate mindfvcking two prepared Force users on the fly in a combat scenario.

Unless new evidence has been offered rebutting that, anything suggesting otherwise is false.

He uses the technique in Revan. Theres nothing indicating that it requires prep time or that it can't be used in battle.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He uses the technique in Revan.

Which is stated by the text to require time and effort. It's clearly not a matter of snapping one's fingers.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres nothing indicating that it requires prep time or that it can't be used in battle.

He can attempt to use it in combat, sure. Just as Sidious can attempt to use a Force Storm in combat or a Jedi Knight can attempt to use Battle Meditation. But axel is perfectly right in arguing that Dooku and Mace are quick and powerful enough to retaliate before the attempt comes close to success.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which is stated by the text to require time and effort. It's clearly not a matter of snapping one's fingers.

He can attempt to use it in combat, sure. Just as Sidious can attempt to use a Force Storm in combat or a Jedi Knight can attempt to use Battle Meditation. But axel is perfectly right in arguing that Dooku and Mace are quick and powerful enough to retaliate before the attempt comes close to success.

Its stated that it takes effort, and the only reason why it took time is because: “This time I know his tricks and tactics,” Revan assured them. “I can shield my mind from being dominated by his will, and I can show you how to do the same.” Revan felt Vitiate assault his mind, but because there was resistance he had the time to interrupt him. Mace and Dooku will have no such thing. Just as Revan and Malak they will fall 'in an instant.'

Even if thats true, you forget about the HoT.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its stated that it takes effort, and the only reason why it took time is because: “This time I know his tricks and tactics,” Revan assured them. “I can shield my mind from being dominated by his will, and I can show you how to do the same.”

At no point is it stated that "the only reason it took time" is because Revan knows his tricks and tactics.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan felt Vitiate assault his mind, but because there was resistance he had the time to interrupt him. Mace and Dooku will have no such thing.

Ah, so Mace and Dooku won't feel or resist the psychic intrusion? What proof have you?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Just as Revan and Malak they will fall 'in an instant.'

What proof have you?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Even if thats true, you forget about the HoT.

He was beaten into submission via the Force first.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Not that I want to spend too much time arguing about it, given that Vitiate never demonstrated such TK in a fight. I am not inclined to think he will use it here, because he did not employ “super TK” when in as straight up fight with HoT.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Cos their skillz > Vitiate and HoT’s.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Nah-uh. 🙂
Revan in Malak? But they were falling to the DS already.
I need to see specifics. Did Vitiate dominated their minds mid duel, or did he defeat them first and then dominated them. Somehow I feel that the latter is the case.
Also, where in Revan did Vitiate dominate opponents mind in mid-duel?

Over 300 years ago, the great Jedi heroes Revan and Malak stumbled upon the long-hidden Sith Empire's capital of Dromund Kaas, and its ruler - a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side. They argued briefly over whether to alert the Republic and Jedi Council, but Revan was already too consumed by arrogance and anger to consider the possibility of defeat. By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already at the precipice of the dark side. It took only a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War. (SWTORE, Page 88)

Satisfied? While Revan and Malak were on the precipice of the dark side during this encounter, Vitiate didn't had to exert much to break them either and he did so swiftly.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Oh, but they are. Vitiate lacks speed, mobility and saber-skills. This is a major disadvantage for him when facing Mace and Dooku.

Vitiate's attacks can be swift and devastating; do you think that a slow and clumsy individual would be able to rule a Sith Empire for such a long period as Vitiate did - a Sith Empire in which powerful individuals sometimes didn't even last a month in the Dark Council after gaining a position in it on the basis of years of hardwork, competition and vice versa?

Common sense, bro.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Dooku handles HoT while Mace handles Vitiate, or the other way around. No problem here.

Remember that when Revan met Vitiate again, the latter never gave the former a chance to get close enough to him to strike him down? How much time do you think is required to unleash a Force power?

Both Dooku and Mace are likely to end up broken in this fight even before it happens. None of them have a clue about Vitiate's capabilities and every second wasted in making a decision will be their undoing.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
But....he isn't.... 😬

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Well, he is no weakling but we are talking here about a straight-up fight. And from what I see I'm not inclined to believe that Braga is rivaling in combat prowess say, Maul, let alone the good Count or Mace.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
But they do not have to be completely resistant. Unless Vitiate’s mindfvck is instant they will be just fine. And given that they are faster than slow-a$$ Vitiate, it is him who will be fvcked once they discern he tries to meddle with their minds.

Once the Vitiate's mental powers begin to brush their minds, the matter will be over within a matter of seconds. It took Vitiate just a second to put Scourge on his @ss with his (minor) mental brush. Now don't tell me that Scourge is a weakling; he isn't.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
With prep and/or ritual and an incapacitated victim…..sure.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Mace and Dooku take a clear majority IMHO.

I sense that this will ultimately lead down the dark, windy path to my ignore function, but it is my duty to provide the consummate refrain:

[list=1]
1. The encyclopedia was written entirely in-universe, it is subject to the same faults and failures as other in-universe contributions
2. Hyperbolic descriptions notwithstanding, divine entities are not likely to be telepathically manipulated, physically frustrated, and ignominiously defeated & killed
[/list=1]

Majority of the Star Wars sources represent in-universe perspective of events in the lore, correct me if I am wrong here.

Revan's own admission:

"We underestimated his power. When we confronted him, he didn't even have to fight us. Instead, he broke our wills. He dominated our minds, turning us into puppets to do his bidding." (SWTOR: Revan)

SWTORE expands on this event and reveals that Vitiate didn't had to exert much to break both Revan and Malak simultaneously.

If their is a contradicting or alternative description of this event then it shall be presented.

There is no contradiction with Revan's account, but then I didn't claim as much. My issue stems from the fact that the encyclopedia teems with hyperbolic and prosaic descriptions.

But let's ignore the fact that Vitiate had to divert much of his strength to try to enthrall Revan the second time around and assume the encyclopedia is being literal:

[list=1]
1. Revan and Malak were already teetering on the precipice of the dark side
2. Vitiate orchestrated the trap that ensnared them, enabling him opportunity to gather his energies in preparation
3. Dromund Kaas is a dark side nexus and would logically bolster Vitiate's efforts
[/list]

There is no reason to conclude Vitiate would replicate that context-specific victory against these two opponents.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
My issue stems from the fact that the encyclopedia teems with hyperbolic and prosaic descriptions.

Hyperbolic descriptions are not to be taken literally but their "intended message" is important.

This is the only hyperbolic statement within the information cited from page 88 of SWTORE, as per my understanding: "a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side."

Vitiate wasn't omnipotent but he certainly represented an avatar of the dark side.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
[list=1]
1. Revan and Malak were already teetering on the precipice of the dark side
2. Vitiate orchestrated the trap that ensnared them, enabling him opportunity to gather his energies in preparation
3. Dromund Kaas is a dark side nexus and would logically bolster Vitiate's efforts
[/list]

There is no reason to conclude Vitiate would replicate that context-specific victory against these two opponents.

Here is a description of this event:

"The Emperor is more than a man - he is the living embodiment of the dark side. Armed with incalculable powers of corruption, the Emperor easily defeats the Knight, Master Braga, and their fellow Jedi, twisting them all to the dark side." (SWTORE, Page 92)

Remember that "powerful energy" which Vitiate gathered in his hands during this confrontation? When Vitiate unleashed this energy, it swiftly broke the entire strike team. Afterwards, Vitiate triumphantly gloated that all of the fallen Jedi are now his weapons, servants and slaves.

@ Legend,
while I admire your undying zeal to argue for KOTOR-era, I do not find your methodology to be sound at all. 😬
No debate for us, sorry.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
@ Legend,
while I admire your undying zeal to argue for KOTOR-era, I do not find your methodology to be sound at all. 😬
No debate for us, sorry.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Your concession is accepted.

You shouldn't dismiss Legend so easily. He brings up good points and has access to more material on the subject than you do.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
No. 🙁

No I haven't proven Vitiate possesses the most powerful Force Lightning in the mythos? Perhaps you should check that your eyeballs haven't crusted over with filth, because I know that I have.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Yet, obviously when Vitiate was dying he released energy that perhaps was destroying the temple. But such a burst of energy is not unique. Kazdan Paratus, Shaak TI etc. come to mind.

Different burst of energy. No-ones ever used that burst of energy to actually destroy anything and its never been strong enough to do so. The temple wasn't destroyed by the energy, which I don't think Vitiate even had, but by telekinesis.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Not that I want to spend too much time arguing about it, given that Vitiate never demonstrated such TK in a fight. I am not inclined to think he will use it here, because he did not employ “super TK” when in as straight up fight with HoT.

He did disintegrate T3. This point is pretty weak, because much of the fight occurs during gameplay, and we only see the very beginning an end of it. Even then we do see him overpower and push back the HoT.

Its also ridiculous. What, is it somehow easier to use TK while exhausted, cut in half and potentially having a pillar dropped on you? What possible reason would prevent him from using the same amount of power in the fight?

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Cos their skillz > Vitiate and HoT’s.

That is merely your opinion. And you offered nothing to back it up other than the ABC 'Windu beat Sidious' argument and some crap about Dooku being amped. Even when amped Dooku failed to beat a wounded Yoda, you really think he's going to beat a guy who's wiped out entire Dark Councils?

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Nah-uh. 🙂
Revan in Malak? But they were falling to the DS already.
I need to see specifics. Did Vitiate dominated their minds mid duel, or did he defeat them first and then dominated them. Somehow I feel that the latter is the case.
Also, where in Revan did Vitiate dominate opponents mind in mid-duel?

As Legend showed, there wasn't even a fight. Vitiate simply dominated them before they could do anything. And what about them being on the edge of falling to the darkside would make them easier to mentally dominate? It wouldn't.

He used his telepathy against Revan. He also made Scourge shit his pants with a mere brush of his mind:

“If your information proves false, however,” the Emperor added, “you will suffer a fate more terrible than anything you can imagine.”

As he spoke, the dark circles of his eyes seemed to fill with a swirling red mist, and for a brief instant the Emperor gave Scourge a glimpse of his true self.

Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor’s mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation.

You really think Windu and Dooku can fare better? If so I'd like to see some proof.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Oh, but they are. Vitiate lacks speed, mobility and saber-skills. This is a major disadvantage for him when facing Mace and Dooku.
Dooku handles HoT while Mace handles Vitiate, or the other way around. No problem here.

Funny that despite how Vitiate 'lacks speed, mobility and saber-skills' in all 3 of his fights he's been able to deal with people attemtping to rush him with lightsabers. Revan, the Strike Team and the Hero of Tython were all repelled when they tried to pull exactly the same tactic you're suggesting. And the HoT is no tortoise, as shown by them easily blitzing Sith Warriors on at least 2 occasions. I'd say that indicative that its not going to work.

Or the HoT holds them both off for the, oh second or 2 it takes for Vitiate to mentally dominate them? Even if they have to fight one on one, I think that Vitiate can overcome Windu, afterall he was seriously struggling against Sidious' lightning so Vitiates superior lightning should overwhelm him, and that the HoT can likely defeat Dooku, or at least survive long enough for Vitiate to kill him.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
First, these douchebags yelling in during the video are pretty annoying. 😬
Second, Braga is already mind-fvcked here. He is torn between light and dark. Naturally, he will be confused and an easy target for a Jedi mind trick.

I guess you didn't watch the whole video, because Tol Braga clearly says that he broke free from the Emperor's mental control. He's the only one who did so independently. Not even Revan could do it completely. As such he clearly has a strong mind, and this coupled with his immense power makes this a great feat.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
But....he isn't.... 😬

Well, he is no weakling but we are talking here about a straight-up fight. And from what I see I'm not inclined to believe that Braga is rivaling in combat prowess say, Maul, let alone the good Count or Mace.

Did I forget to mention that Tol Braga once fought a Dark Council member for several days straight? How silly of me. That, and what I mentioned before clearly show that he is on Dooku and Windu's level, if not close to it at the least. And unlike them he actually has evidence of a mental resistance. I see no reason why the Hero of Tython or Vitiate wouldn't be able to dominate them.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
But they do not have to be completely resistant. Unless Vitiate’s mindfvck is instant they will be just fine. And given that they are faster than slow-a$$ Vitiate, it is him who will be fvcked once they discern he tries to meddle with their minds.

With prep and/or ritual and an incapacitated victim…..sure.

Mace and Dooku take a clear majority IMHO.

I am discussing this with Tempest atm, so I'll get back to you on the length of time it will take. In the meanwhile, look at the quote from Scourge. A mere brush of the Emperor's mind had him writhing on the floor. Do you think that without the resistance that only Revan, who only knew about it from first-hand experience, knew about, Dooku or Windu will be capable of getting past the Hero of Tython, who proved to be more powerful than Vitiate himself and interrupt Vitiate, which itself took Revan channellingh the Light and Dark sides in harmony to do?

Cuz I don't. 😉