Mace Windu and Darth Tyranus vs Hero of Tython and Emperor Vitiate

…Braga fighting a member of the Dark Council puts him on Dooku and Windu’s level? Putting Scourge in the fetal position indicates he’d do the same to Dooku and Windu? Teetering on the precipice of the dark side wouldn’t make it easier for Malak and Revan to succumb to the dark side? The circumstances of Vitiate’s slaughter of the Dark Council are now known enough to use it as a combat feat? Vitiate destroyed a temple because Scourge says the place is coming down but axel hands you even more convincing evidence of Vader collapsing a goddamn cathedral and you delay?

I think enough has been provided to prove that the Dark Council members are an impressive bunch, and the feat is more that he fought the guy for several days.

Do you have evidence that he wouldn't?

The dark side yes. Mental domination? Lol no.

Did I use it as such?

Yes.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I think enough has been provided to prove that the Dark Council members are an impressive bunch, and the feat is more that he fought the guy for several [b]days.

And you randomly assign that to Mace and Dooku levels? Why not Bane and Sidious?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Do you have evidence that he wouldn't?

Because I have to prove a negative now?

Originally posted by Nephthys
The dark side yes. Mental domination? Lol no.

Because it's unreasonable to think that morally-conflicted Jedi Knights on the precipice of the dark side wouldn't be on their psychic A-game on a world that "bristles" with the dark side?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Did I use it as such?

Yup

Nephthys
Even when amped Dooku failed to beat a wounded Yoda, you really think he's going to beat a guy who's wiped out entire Dark Councils?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes.

Right, because that's fair. 👆

Originally posted by Nephthys

Actually, no. The facial expression didn't match. Use a different picture.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I conceed this point. I wasn't aware that they had actually trained other Force users like Jerec, so they most likely were versed in defensive techniques. When you termed them as alchemists I assumed them to just be that. However, I still stand by my point that theres no evidence suggesting they had any resistance raised and that even if they did, that theres nothing indicating that it could be applied to Sidious' attack, which was a surprise. As far as I know, Force defenses are not omnidirectional.

And as far as I know, a force user can shield their entire body with a force aura when prepared for battle (I believe Luke mentioned something like that when he went to engage force sensitive stormtroopers in DE). And logically, the prophets would have put up a defense if they were expecting to defend themselves from an angry Vader.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Er no. Absorbing the lightning with your hands still obviously has the same impact that absorbing it with a lightsaber does. Theres still physical force being applied, as shown by Yoda taking a step back and being pushed back by Sidious' lightning when he was absorbing it. His arm is also pushed back by Dooku's in AotC.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Are you suggesting that since Sidious blasted Yoda's lightsaber out of his hands, that his lightning should have also blasted Yoda's arm off?

And, no; absorbing lightning with your hands, if you're a master at it, would likely reduce some of the affects of lightning, as you are actually absorbing the lightning, not merely containing it as you would be with a saber.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Patently false, as he wasn't afraid to attack him later, in a worse situation. Here is the exerpt from the script:

'YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. [b]It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

YODA: Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.

YODA jumps to a lower Senate Pod. PALPATINE reaches out with one hand, and a Senate pod is released from its mooring and heads toward the Podium. PALPATINE uses the Force to hurl pod after pod at YODA, who ducks and jumps from one flying pod to another.'

Yoda was pushing his lightning back and still had his lightsaber. He had every advantage to capitalise on. Him leaping away is utter stupidity, likely why Lucas chose not to put it in the movie.[/B]

It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed?

Obviously, Yoda didn't feel as if he could have continued containing Sidious lightning any further, otherwise he wouldn't have leaped away. I'd say that is the reason he did leaped away, especially seeing how moments later, Sidious managed to blast his saber right out of his hands.

But you're right: that part didn't make it to the movie, however, the part where Sidious blasted Yoda's lightsaber right out of his hands did make it. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. And there's no way you can argue that Sidious lightning caught Yoda by surprise, and to even assume it, is rather silly for reasons I explained earlier in the thread.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But that makes no sense. If he was 'underestimating' Sidious, then why does he look like he just shat his pants when Sidious attacks him. Theres a clear look of fear on his face. And since he was afraid, why [b]only lift one hand? Both are on his cane, in the exact same place, it would be just as easy to lift both as it would one and if it is more effective with 2 hands as you're implying, why not do it? Yoda isn't some cocky *******, he knows that the fate of the galaxy rests on this fight and that Sidious has just murdered the entire Jedi Order. Theres no reason for him to be so arrogant. Furthermore, there is absolutely no evidence that he did try to block it. There is no mention or hint of it in the script, the book or the movie. What you're suggesting is only speculation.[/B]

You're suggesting that it would be stupid of Yoda for underestimating Sidious lightning when the fate of the galaxy rests on this fight, but then you turn around and suggest that Yoda went their with absolutely no defense up, and wasn't expecting an attack from Sidious? Somehow, I think the latter makes Yoda look more stupid, and makes far less sense.

If Yoda was so scared of the incoming attack as you claim, then logically he would have put up some kind of force barrier/force defense/shield. Hell, logically, he would have had his force defense up the moment he walked in the room to face a sith lord.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And I believe that I've debunked your point quite thoroughly.

You haven't debunked it though. You're wanted me to ignore the fact that Sidious' lightning overpowered Yoda's saber defense just because it doesn't make sense to you (which I'm not seeing how it wouldn't make sense you).

Originally posted by Nephthys
Only if we say that Sidious' lightning is greater or equal to Vitiates. Which it isn't.

It's arguable, but my argument has more backing than yours.

If Palpatine can effortlessly reduce three dark prophets to charred bones with lightning, using only one hand (which suggests he wasn't giving it even half his best), kill Vader (when Vader has tanked SK's lightning, and has tanked powerful explosions), Ko'd one of the most powerful jedi with a single blast, and has reduced a giant sith worm to ash, then I'm almost certain that if Palpatine put as much effort in it as Vitiate did, and uses two attack, that Palpatine would also be capable of overpowering the jedi strike team, especially if he can blast Yoda's lightsaber right out of his hands, and nearly overpower Windu's saber defense while pretending to be weak, whereas Revan and HoT were more than capable of handling Vitiate's lightning with their sabers (HoT did so on a dark side nexus where a light siders powers are diminished, while a dark sider powers are greatly enhanced).

Vitiate and Palpatine are certainly rivals with lightning, but yeah I'm going with Sidious' lightning.

Urgh, am I really debating all 3 of you? ¬_¬

I know that I'm aw3some, but I just don't know if theres enough Neph-love to go around.

Well since I'm not in a long-term dabating mood at the moment, you can get to my post last.

Though, I'm not seeing what more you can say.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And you randomly assign that to Mace and Dooku levels? Why not Bane and Sidious?

I'm being generous.

(How does anyone decide what level a feat puts the guy at? I'm only using my judgement here. If you disagree about it though I'd love to discuss why)

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because I have to prove a negative now?

No, you have to support your argument. I've provided evidence of Vitiates mental powers. If theres nothing countering it from your side then my argument wins. I'm just curious about why you seemed to imply that it was a stupid argument when theres nothing indicating that its not that case. Why do you think they wouldn't succumb like Scourge did?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because it's unreasonable to think that morally-conflicted Jedi Knights on the precipice of the dark side wouldn't be on their psychic A-game on a world that "bristles" with the dark side?

Got it in one. 👆

So tell me, why would that affect their telepathic capabilities?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yup

No, I just mentioned that he's done it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Right, because that's fair. 👆

Thanks, I do try to be sporting in these things.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If Palpatine can effortlessly reduce three dark prophets to charred bones with lightning, using only one hand (which suggests he wasn't giving it even half his best), kill Vader (when Vader has tanked SK's lightning, and has tanked powerful explosions), Ko'd one of the most powerful jedi with a single blast, and has reduced a giant sith worm to ash, then I'm almost certain that if Palpatine put as much effort in it as Vitiate did, and uses two attack, that Palpatine would also be capable of overpowering the jedi strike team, especially if he can blast Yoda's lightsaber right out of his hands, and nearly overpower Windu's saber defense while pretending to be weak, whereas Revan and HoT were more than capable of handling Vitiate's lightning with their sabers (HoT did so on a dark side nexus where a light siders powers are diminished, while a dark sider powers are greatly enhanced).

Vitiate and Palpatine are certainly rivals with lightning, but yeah I'm going with Sidious' lightning.

To give you an idea:

Dooku's defensive abilities > Sith Acolytes, Sith Worm and vice versa. Therefore, Sidious utterly destroying the latter list with his FL abilities, is not a big deal for a Sith of his caliber. And Dooku himself doesn't stands a chance at tolerating signature FL of Nyriss; let alone Vitiate.

---

Available evidence suggests that Vitiate is unrivaled in FL abilities in the history of the Sith Order.

Nephthys
Urgh, am I really debating all 3 of you? ¬_¬

I know that I'm aw3some, but I just don't know if theres enough Neph-love to go around.

I don't want to debate you. I thought we reached an understanding some months ago that if you can't conform to operating under a single set of standards, a debate would be utterly fruitless.

I'm merely pointing out that you are, as usual, crafting an argument that demands certain concessions and generosity from your opponent that you're unwilling to give him.

Nephthys

I'm being generous.

(How does anyone decide what level a feat puts the guy at? I'm only using my judgement here. If you disagree about it though I'd love to discuss why)

You mean you don't want to put Braga above Bane. Understandable, but Bane and Sidious have never been shown to fight an adversary for "days."

Nephthys
No, you have to support your argument. I've provided evidence of Vitiates mental powers. If theres nothing countering it from your side then my argument wins. I'm just curious about why you seemed to imply that it was a stupid argument when theres nothing indicating that its not that case. Why do you think they wouldn't succumb like Scourge did?

You've provided evidence that Vitiate possesses sufficient mental powers to cow Scourge. You did not adequately make your case as to how Vitiate will duplicate that against Mace and/or Dooku.

In times past, when your opponent has done as you have done, you called them out saying "Well X might have done this to Y, but Y isn't Z."

Nephthys
Got it in one. 👆

So tell me, why would that affect their telepathic capabilities?

Read the full passage:

Over 300 years ago, the great Jedi heroes Revan and Malak stumbled upon the long-hidden Sith Empire's capital of Dromund Kaas, and its ruler - a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side. They argued briefly over whether to alert the Republic and Jedi Council, but Revan was already too consumed by arrogance and anger to consider the possibility of defeat. By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already at the precipice of the dark side. It took only a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War.

The context very clearly paints an elaborate picture: They were on the razor's edge by the time they got to Vitiate and so it took only a "fraction" of his powers to give them the final shove.

It is a recurring, consistent theme within the mythology that exposure to strong dark side sites often manifests in psychic temptation to harness that same power. We see it with Yoda and Whie in The Empire Strikes Back, we see it with Obi-Wan on Zigoola in Clone Wars: Wild Space, we see it with Atris and the Sith holocrons in KOTOR II, and so on.

That this would not be an environment in which morally conflicted Jedi would be at their mental and psychic peak is as obvious as it is reasonable; which is to say very.

Nephthys
No, I just mentioned that he's done it.

Sidious can kill worlds unaided. How relevant is that against Bane? To you, it's not relevant at all. The same applies here. Explain how Vitiate's ambiguous purge of the Dark Council is relevant when confronted with Dooku or Mace.

Nephthys
Thanks, I do try to be sporting in these things.

You really don't. And that you despise it when I use your own tactics against you to illustrate how much of a nonstarter it is makes this enduring character deficit of yours even more bewildering.

Duplicate message.

SWL, you posted that already.

Yeah, realized my mistake. Experiencing internet problems at my end.

lol

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I don't want to debate you. I thought we reached an understanding some months ago that if you can't conform to operating under a single set of standards, a debate would be utterly fruitless.

Funny, you seem to be turning this into a debate. Just as you did on the last page. If you truly don't want to debate me, perhaps you shouldn't criticise my arguments or respond to my points?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm merely pointing out that you are, as usual, crafting an argument that demands certain concessions and generosity from your opponent that you're unwilling to give him.

I'm such an awful person. Thank you Tempest, thank you, for showing me the error of my ways. Pleas hold my tiny violin for me while I commit seppuku.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You mean you don't want to put Braga above Bane. Understandable, but Bane and Sidious have never been shown to fight an adversary for "days."

I don't care one way or the other. If you think the feat puts him up there then thats cool, I disagree, but you're welcome to your opinion.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You've provided evidence that Vitiate possesses sufficient mental powers to cow Scourge. You did not adequately make your case as to how Vitiate will duplicate that against Mace and/or Dooku.

In times past, when your opponent has done as you have done, you called them out saying "Well X might have done this to Y, but Y isn't Z."

I'm not sure whats 'adequate' for you, but pointing out an ability Vitiate possesses and then pointing out that there no evidence suggesting Dooku or Windu can resist it is pretty adequate in my books. Its like if you suggested Dooku would blitz Vitiate and my response was 'lol, you think he could do that do you?' without offering any reason why he couldn't. Would that be a valid argument for you. Because if so I'll just replace all my arguments from now on with unfounded scorn.

And then I offer reasons as to why it wouldn't work against Z. Or someone asks me why it wouldn't work against Z. Like I'm doing now.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Read the full passage:

Over 300 years ago, the great Jedi heroes Revan and Malak stumbled upon the long-hidden Sith Empire's capital of Dromund Kaas, and its ruler - a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side. They argued briefly over whether to alert the Republic and Jedi Council, [b]but Revan was already too consumed by arrogance and anger to consider the possibility of defeat. By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already at the precipice of the dark side. It took only a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War.

The context very clearly paints an elaborate picture: They were on the razor's edge by the time they got to Vitiate and so it took only a "fraction" of his powers to give them the final shove. [/b]

Yes, to push them to the Darkside.

.... And how does that tie into his mentally dominating them?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It is a recurring, consistent theme within the mythology that exposure to strong dark side sites often manifests in psychic temptation to harness that same power. We see it with Yoda and Whie in The Empire Strikes Back, we see it with Obi-Wan on Zigoola in Clone Wars: Wild Space, we see it with Atris and the Sith holocrons in KOTOR II, and so on.

That this would not be an environment in which morally conflicted Jedi would be at their mental and psychic peak is as obvious as it is reasonable; which is to say very.

Yes, temptation to join the darkside. Not to become Vitiates mindslaves and conquer the galaxy for him.

I guess we're at an impasse at this point. I don't see falling to the darkside as evidence of mental vulnerability. If anything, Anakin seemed to become much more focused and sure of himself when he tapped into the darkside (in the CWC, against Dooku and when he attacked the Jedi temple), up until he lost his shit at the end. Also, if they truly were so steeped in the darkside, wouldn't a darkside nexus empower them?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sidious can kill worlds unaided. How relevant is that against Bane? To you, it's not relevant at all. The same applies here. Explain how Vitiate's ambiguous purge of the Dark Council is relevant when confronted with Dooku or Mace.

It isn't. You seem to have taken my idle boasting a bit too seriously.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You really don't. And that you despise it when I use your own tactics against you to illustrate how much of a nonstarter it is makes this enduring character deficit of yours even more bewildering.

No, I despise it when you act like an arrogant condescending prick and attempt to 'teach me the error of my ways' as if you're somehow better than me and your arguments are more valid. I've got nothing against you using underhanded tactics against me (Intellectually. I am sadly still human, and thus subject to frustration).

Nephthys
No, I despise it when you act like an arrogant condescending prick and attempt to 'teach me the error of my ways' as if you're somehow better than me and your arguments are more valid. I've got nothing against you using underhanded tactics against me (Intellectually. I am sadly still human, and thus subject to frustration).

ermm

You could always spare yourself the ensuing frustration and suffering by having an honest debate with people. Such an action would preclude me disciplining you.

As it is, your tacit confession of using "underhanded tactics" indicates that you're less interested in an honest, sporting debate than you are in wanking certain characters.

My confession is hardly tacit seeing as I've openly admitted it in the past. 🙄

Originally posted by Nephthys
My confession is hardly tacit seeing as I've openly admitted it in the past. 🙄

So you're not interested in honest debates and seek only to wank certain characters?

I don't wank certain characters. I don't even like Vitiate. He's a truly shit and unimaginative character. I just actually do think he's as powerful as I argue he is. Same with the other characters I tend to back.

Oh, but I am not a particularly honest person.

Wow.

Glad to finally have that out in the open after all this goddamn time. uhuh

My sympathies with the poor schmuck who engages you next. 👆

'All this time'? I've said this multiple times in the past, lol. Its not my fault you're too dumb to keep track.