Ultron vs Thanos

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Doom jammed his head on just by ramming it in there.

Because opening up a sliding door in your chest is the same as forcibly ripping your head off and causing yourself pain

And then you posted a scan an issue later where he said he must kill Daredevil, and then proceeded to tear himself apart because she didn't like that.

So I take it from your continuing this that you think Ultron wins? How?

Ultron-13 didn't cause himself pain when he dislodged his head. You're probably confusing yourself with the time Daredevil jammed his billy club into the exposed neck wiring. And are you telling me that Ultron can easily open his adamantium chassis panels on his body but cannot dislocate his adamantium joints? Proof?

He said he must kill Daredevil "eventually" -- a piece of programming he's been fighting for both issues, including in the very next panel.

This is an ancillary side debate spawned from this clumsy notion that Thanos can somehow rend an adamantium Ultron to pieces because one Ultron was actively dismantling himself. By this reasoning, Tony taking off his helmet means Hawkeye could tear it right off his armor in a fight with a tug.

Originally posted by ODG
Yes, Doom assembled him. Ultrons are assembled.

Ultron-13 didn't cause himself pain when he dislodged his head. You're probably confusing yourself with the time Daredevil jammed his billy club into the exposed neck wiring. And are you telling me that Ultron can easily open his adamantium chassis panels on his body but cannot dislocate his adamantium joints? Proof?

He said he must kill Daredevil "eventually" -- a piece of programming he's been fighting for both issues, including in the very next panel.

This is an ancillary side debate spawned from this clumsy notion that Thanos can somehow rend an adamantium Ultron to pieces because one Ultron was actively dismantling himself. By this reasoning, Tony taking off his helmet means Hawkeye could tear it off his armor.

Panels are meant to be opened, heads are not meant to come off.
Proof he took off his head because it's his. You claimed first, prove it.

Which goes against:
"[i]But Daredevil is the one we are to kill! The completion of the mission is to kill the hero! No! We can rise above all that! forgiveness!"

Can't have it both ways.

You had to respond to every obvious joke I said, and then started bringing out scans, which is hilarious to me. But now it's stale. Why does Ultron win ODG?
Probably. And taking off a helmet is the same as taking off a head.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
But what about when organics don't get "damaged"? The Juggs comparison is when he got pretty much destroyed by an attack that wouldn't tickle adamantium. That's not fair to compare them.

Well, he has... he's taken attacks above what the Shield can take (which is greater than adamantium). Can you name me what's the most powerful attack that adamantium has taken?

See, are you talking about damage as in destroyed skin, blood, holes, etc, or just getting hurt?

And we've only seen Thanos' healing factor at work a couple times. Do we assume he gets shredded through every attack that would damage adamantium and heals instantly, or do we assume he doesn't get damage like what's been shown?

Cap's shield took energy leaking out of a weakened Galactus that was thrown as an energy wave. And a small portion of it.
Thanos took an attack from a not weakened Galactus. Thanos' dead body took the Galactus attack that destroyed the galaxy, so there's that too.
On the other hand... Pussy King Thor damaged the shield, Full King Thor destroyed it (though I predict the alternate excuse will be used), Serpent almost effortlessly tore the thing in pieces. Downgraded Thanos with the IG shattered it with punches. Then Morlun, Hulk, and Zeus' bird have destroyed adamantium.
Thanos took attacks from actual Odin without too much damage being caused to his body. The Cosmic Cube blast didn't do any noticeable damage to his body. He walked away from multiple attacks from the Magus when he had the IG and then a blast from Adam/Magus while only being rocked.

The body is malleable. But that doesn't mean every being can take attacks that could destroy adamantium. Thickness is a good point, but it's not like Ultron is thick. A solid brick the size of Thanos would be more interesting though.

thor has taken a celestial blast. hulk (who damaged ultron) hasn't bloodied thor's nose in a fight and ben has taken multiple shots from hulk. unlike thanos THEY def don't have healing factors but i don't think anyone is going to go on record and say they are more durable than adamantium. i mean, does that mean every time someone survives a blast from someone skyfather or above it makes them automatically more durable than cap's shield? hell, even spidey has taken morlun's shots and he broke some adamantium. and i'm sure people could come up with dozens of examples like those. organic durability and the durability of a metal simply can't be fairly compared imo.

on top of that, i think we're looking at damage differently tbh. cap's shield can't heal itself. if thanos stood still and didn't defend at all, and he let serpent grab him by the head, i'm pretty sure he'd be pretty damn f'd up too.....his body might heal itself in time, but he'd sure as hell be damaged. a punch that dented the shield would certainly damage thanos as well, he could just heal or will himself to go on. (and i'm thinking of a different time cap defended against galactus--can't recall where it was though....) that doesn't mean he is more 'durable' than the shield. it's apples and oranges. both would be damaged, but the shield can't decide whether to push through or heal the damage. and puncture resistance is something else entirely. i don't think the term damage soak works with metals though.

a block of adamantium cut into the size and shape of thanos would be pretty unbreakable imo and unless it's structure was being messed with directly, i'd say it could take anything thanos could.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Jammed it on his head.

Panels are meant to be opened, heads are not meant to come off.
Proof he took off his head because it's his. You claimed first, prove it.

Well, obviously the head started off detached, and other Ultron heads have been reattached after being decapitated, so... ? Based on the scans I just showed you, Ultron-13 can open up various parts all over his body that someone else with pure strength couldn't. That suggests that he can dislodge pieces of his adamantium shell, likely by disabling interlocking mechanisms. And common sense tells you that this ability to dismantle himself or expose his internal wiring isn't limited.

If you want it to be limited, prove it.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Which goes against:
"[i]But Daredevil is the one we are to kill! The completion of the mission is to kill the hero! No! We can rise above all that! forgiveness!"

Can't have it both ways.

You had to respond to every obvious joke I said, and then started bringing out scans, which is hilarious to me. But now it's stale. Why does Ultron win ODG?
Probably. And taking off a helmet is the same as taking off a head.

What exactly do you think an indecisive schizophrenic is?

You ended up bringing Daredevil into this. And now you're trying to seriously argue that Ultron dismantling itself was a pure strength feat that Thanos could surpass. Here's an exercise that'll show you how forced your argument is: find me a scan that conclusively shows that when Tony Stark takes off his own helmet, it's because he remotely detaches interlocking mechanisms, not because his puny human strength rips it off its bearings.

Originally posted by leonidas
thor has taken a celestial blast. hulk (who damaged ultron) hasn't bloodied thor's nose in a fight and ben has taken multiple shots from hulk. unlike thanos THEY def don't have healing factors but i don't think anyone is going to go on record and say they are more durable than adamantium. i mean, does that mean every time someone survives a blast from someone skyfather or above it makes them automatically more durable than cap's shield? hell, even spidey has taken morlun's shots and he broke some adamantium. and i'm sure people could come up with dozens of examples like those. organic durability and the durability of a metal simply can't be fairly compared imo.

on top of that, i think we're looking at damage differently tbh. cap's shield can't heal itself. if thanos stood still and didn't defend at all, and he let serpent grab him by the head, i'm pretty sure he'd be pretty damn f'd up too.....his body might heal itself in time, but he'd sure as hell be damaged. a punch that dented the shield would certainly damage thanos as well, he could just heal or will himself to go on. (and i'm thinking of a different time cap defended against galactus--can't recall where it was though....) that doesn't mean he is more 'durable' than the shield. it's apples and oranges. both would be damaged, but the shield can't decide whether to push through or heal the damage. and puncture resistance is something else entirely. i don't think the term damage soak works with metals though.

a block of adamantium cut into the size and shape of thanos would be pretty unbreakable imo and unless it's structure was being messed with directly, i'd say it could take anything thanos could.

But Thanos rarely ever is shown to heal. And the healing factor is supposed to be an excuse for beings to be damaged in comics...
So what, Serpent snapping something in half > Odin's focused Gungir blast?
And he was taking the shots from a power gem amped written up Thor better than the shield took shots from that noob King Thor. I'd assume they were around the same level. At least until Thor actually got impressive when he had the Odin Force.

I've already shown Thanos taking attacks better than the shield could. Not sure what "He'd be f'd up" is showing. The couple times he was really really damaged were by a 2 light year black hole closing in on him, anti matter, a sword that iirc killed Death, and Omega (I think he was damaged there anyway). Which showed the damage it caused to him, and then his healing factor. I'm not sure the shield could withstand those.

Plus, it's not just one feat with Thanos, he's taken a lot of attacks that would grind adamantium to a paste. And he's consistently written as ultra durable. Where does that leave him? Less durable than adamantium because we can't compare them?

Yes he'll be hurt by attacks, but as far as really damaging him. He's been written to a point where he should be above adamantium. If we include everything like his healing factor, shields, damage soak, and his chin... it's a wash.

Another question, but do you think Surtur is more durable than adamantium?

Originally posted by ODG
Which doesn't prove anything.

Well, obviously the head started off detached, and other Ultron heads have been reattached after being decapitated, so... ? Based on the scans I just showed you, Ultron-13 can open up various parts all over his body that someone else with pure strength couldn't. That suggests that he can dislodge pieces of his adamantium shell, likely by disabling interlocking mechanisms. And common sense tells you that this ability to dismantle himself or expose his internal wiring isn't limited.

If you want it to be limited, prove it. It doesn't go against a schizo being an indecisive schizophrenic.

What exactly do you think an indecisive schizophrenic is?

You ended up bringing Daredevil into this. And now you're trying to seriously argue that Ultron dismantling itself was a pure strength feat that Thanos could surpass. Here's an exercise that'll show you how forced your argument is: find me a scan that conclusively shows that when Tony Stark takes off his own helmet, it's because he remotely detaches interlocking mechanisms, not because his puny human strength rips it off its bearings.

He literally popped his head on without doing anything special. And then Ultron later took apart his neck. Ultron is shittily put together.

His neck "rings" were literally coming apart.

I didn't realize that Ultron's interlocking mechanisms looked so messy when they were disjointed. Notice how he took off his interlocking mechanisms on on side of his neck ring, but didn't on the other. Silly Ultron, right?

So again, prove he used interlocking mechanisms to take his head apart.

Never said he wasn't, but you were implying he got over his will to kill. Which he clearly didn't. Basically, we have no idea what he was outputting at the time.

How about this one instead of your red herring:
Prove Ultron used interlocking mechanisms to take off his head.

And how does Ultron win?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Also, my CR is higher than yours.

I am at 95 at the moment; need to update my sig...

Do you play on the ps3 or PC?

To be fair, early Ultrons had some utterly sh_tty deaths, it was easy to get around their adamantium. Later on the got forcefields to shield their insides and regen for their non-adamantium components on top of their ability to reconstruct their own adamantium form.

Originally posted by ODG
Even Immortus understood that Ultron was saving their bacon by letting himself lose.

So you think Immortus couldn't stop Kang either? Well, I wouldn't have gone that far, but since you have Kang in such high steem I'm not going to contradict you 😎

Originally posted by ODG
There is no way Ultron can take on Kang,

Concession accepted bro.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
I am at 95 at the moment; need to update my sig...

Do you play on the ps3 or PC?

PS3

Originally posted by Bentley
To be fair, early Ultrons had some utterly sh_tty deaths, it was easy to get around their adamantium. Later on the got forcefields to shield their insides and regen for their non-adamantium components on top of their ability to reconstruct their own adamantium form.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
He literally popped his head on without doing anything special. And then Ultron later took apart his neck. Ultron is shittily put together.

His neck "rings" were literally coming apart.
http://i41.tinypic.com/e5mupx.jpg

I didn't realize that Ultron's interlocking mechanisms looked so messy when they were disjointed. Notice how he took off his interlocking mechanisms on on side of his neck ring, but didn't on the other. Silly Ultron, right?

Neck rings will come apart when they're interlocking mechanisms are loosened. What would be sillier is that every Ultron fight could have been ended by simply pulling his head off because there were no interlocking mechanisms preventing it. This absurdity being the inevitable result of your reasoning speaks volumes don't it? Never mind the fact that no Ultron has ever been easily defeated by simply separating its joints.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
So again, prove he used interlocking mechanisms to take his head apart.

Never said he wasn't, but you were implying he got over his will to kill. Which he clearly didn't. Basically, we have no idea what he was outputting at the time.

How about this one instead of your red herring:
Prove Ultron used interlocking mechanisms to take off his head.

And how does Ultron win?

I never implied he got over it, just that he was struggling with it the entire time. Especially after he met Number Nine, which is when Daredevil came into the picture.

Way to avoid the inanity of your suppositions, Branlor Swift. Your dodge was so subtle, I almost missed it. No, wait, I lied.

How does Tony take off his own helmet? How does Machine Man take off his own head when his body is disabled? How does Ultron improve his own cybernetics when, according to you, he has no access to his head? Think.

Originally posted by Bentley
So you think Immortus couldn't stop Kang either? Well, I wouldn't have gone that far, but since you have Kang in such high steem I'm not going to contradict you 😎

Concession accepted bro.

Pretty sure we'll never see such a spectacular failure from Kang again. So you can rest in peace.

Thanos

But you compared the durability by saying one was already more durable than the other.

true. but the more i thought about it, the more it seems the comparison just does not work. my initial thought was simply comparing what could damage one vs what could damage the other. in that sense i still think there is no question that adamantium>thanos. by that i mean that anything capable of damaging, scratching, breaking adamantium would certainly damage thanos or anyone else to varying degrees and adamantium would remain unfazed by things that would harm thanos, again to varying degrees. however, in trying to see where you're coming from, it seems you're defining damage differently somehow.

So, we can't use a bunch of seemingly consistent feats from Thanos because Ben and Thor took hits from things that can damage adamantium?

ss has taken hits from t & a and most heralds have similar feats and i sure wouldn't feel comfortable saying any of them>adamantium....

Also, Thor does have some sort of healing factor. And Thing constantly gets rocks punched off him._
Although bringing up Hulk damaging Ultron directly isn't the best way to go about this thread IMO... and that same Ultron was shaken to death by Wonder Man.

thor has some minor healing, but it's pretty inconsequential. and that's my point--ben WAS damaged. like thanos is damaged, like thor is damaged. they are ALL damaged. not being ko'd or completely destroyed does not equal not being damaged. and wm shook secondary adamantium iirc.....

i also agree--using the examples i mentioned is NOT the best way, but you're saying those same things about thanos, so if it's good for him.....

So what, Serpent snapping something in half > Odin's focused Gungir blast?

impossible to say.

And he was taking the shots from a power gem amped written up Thor better than the shield took shots from that noob King Thor. I'd assume they were around the same level.

i'd disagree with this. BOTH were damaged by the blows. i'm not sure how you're drawing a comparison though. is it because thanos wasn't destroyed that you say he took damage better? that doesn't make sense to me. how do you say one was more damaged than the other? thanos has healing, molecular control and there is simply....MORE to him than the shield or adamantium. that's why i don't think the comparisons can be fairly made.

I've already shown Thanos taking attacks better than the shield could. Not sure what "He'd be f'd up" is showing.

it shows BOTH would be damaged and therefore thanos is not more durable. i'd wager thanos would be very badly injured if he left himself completely undefended and serpent unleashed his power on his head....

Plus, it's not just one feat with Thanos, he's taken a lot of attacks that would grind adamantium to a paste. And he's consistently written as ultra durable. Where does that leave him? Less durable than adamantium because we can't compare them?

well, if they can't be compared it leaves him very durable, or at least able to take a lot of damage relative to other ORGANICS. he certainly isn't more resistant to piercing damage than adamantium so how do you factor that in to your overall durability ratings? i mean both the mohs and rockwell scales measure hardness and indentation resistance. thanos would rank well below adamantium on those scales, but we don't place organics ON those scales because, well, it doesn't make sense....

Yes he'll be hurt by attacks, but as far as really damaging him. He's been written to a point where he should be above adamantium. If we include everything like his healing factor, shields, damage soak, and his chin... it's a wash.

not sure i understand this. he can take more total damage in some cases but that's because he has more to call upon regarding ways to resist. seriously, not sure how else to say it. if metal is damaged it can't self repair or will itself to continue. if thanos is damaged he can do both. is he more durable because of those things even though he IS damaged? not imo.

Another question, but do you think Surtur is more durable than adamantium?

same as thanos. imo things that would damage adamantium would def damage surtur to varying degrees but something that would break adamantium wouldn't necessarily ko surtur and the 2 things shouldn't be equated. again, there is a lot 'more' to surtur than a thin sheet of metal..... that said, adamantium would also withstand some things that would damage/cut/hurt surtur, again to varying degrees.

apples and oranges to me my friend. at the end of the day maybe it's terminology we're not agreeing on, i dunno. i still say adamantium>thanos if we're looking at pure damage resistance, but that doesn't mean thanos, like other heralds, can't survive something that might break adamantium--they'd be damaged as well, to varying degrees, but there is 'more' to them that would allow them to survive beyond a simple 'breaking point'. not sure if that makes sense to you though.

You can think of it this way: Thanos putting on 30 lbs. of adamantium armor would be more durable than Thanos putting on 30 lbs. more of muscle. Not much more complicated than that.

Energy blasts can't be compared to blunt force.
Two different materials can have totally different melting points and tensile strength. Thanos can be definitely be cut with an adamantium sword or knife.

Thanos isn't harder or more durable than adamantium when it comes to blunt force or cutting force. But he is closer in durability when it comes to resisting energy blasts.

IMO, I don't see Thanos really doing much to Ulron. But I do see Ultron at least affecting Thanos (but probably not enough).

If anything this is will be a long drawn out fight, possibly a stalemate.

Originally posted by ODG
You can think of it this way: Thanos putting on 30 lbs. of adamantium armor would be more durable than Thanos putting on 30 lbs. more of muscle. Not much more complicated than that.

lol

or that....

i'm thinking bran wouldn't see it that though. (i may be wrong). the way i understand his argument he MIGHT suggest the armor would be destroyed and thanos would survive said attack thereby proving thanos>his armor.

but i don't want to put words in his mouth so that's as far as i'll go. that's just using my understanding of his point.

Wouldn't that be considered damage soak instead of durability?

Originally posted by h1a8
Energy blasts can't be compared to blunt force.
Two different materials can have totally different melting points and tensile strength. Thanos can be definitely be cut with an adamantium sword or knife.

Thanos isn't harder or more durable than adamantium when it comes to blunt force or cutting force. But he is closer in durability when it comes to resisting energy blasts.

IMO, I don't see Thanos really doing much to Ulron. But I do see Ultron at least affecting Thanos (but probably not enough).

If anything this is will be a long drawn out fight, possibly a stalemate.

So both of them decide to stop fighting?

Originally posted by leonidas
lol

or that....

i'm thinking bran wouldn't see it that though. (i may be wrong). the way i understand his argument he MIGHT suggest the armor would be destroyed and thanos would survive said attack thereby proving thanos>his armor.

but i don't want to put words in his mouth so that's as far as i'll go. that's just using my understanding of his point.

A Thor donning adamantium armor would obviously be more durable than a slightly beefier Thor in a fight. Accordingly, adamantium is more durable than Thor.