Originally posted by Bardock42
It is pretty bad. What are your theories as to why this is the case?
Its weird, I've actually been in clinical psych seminar courses where the prof totally dismissed the fact that men have such terrible levels of suicide (the "common" answer is that women cut, men use lethal methods, which is a ****ing stupid answer, as there are places [namely Scandinavia] where men have just as high rates of self harm yet still have a far higher rate of suicide).
I'll be honest, I think a lot of the stuff you and sym were saying earlier is the exact answer. It is the consequence of patriarchy on men. We have such unrealistic pressures put on us in modern society, and if you buy into that, there is a constant pressure to be this idealized version of a man that doesn't and has never existed. We aren't allowed to have emotions, we aren't allowed to talk about inner issues. Like, I just told you about my grandfather, right? I had a conversation with my grandmother last night that got really emotional for both of us, and I couldn't help but feel that, as a man, I should be more "in control" of my emotions. The logical part of my mind knows that is stupid, but there is that social expectation that is hard to shake.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I would hope that men face significant competition in the workforce from women, and vice versa. To say otherwise is to suggest that it's somehow "right" for men to attain and hold the best jobs and "wrong" for women.
However, I think that specialization/differentiation is a good approach to address potential ramifications of this kind of competition in the future. Otherwise, many men can end-up unemployed and living miserably or resorting to crimes.
I wouldn't count out that the choice of method has some impact, but it definitely isn't all of it (for the US for example more men kill themselves with cutting and poison than women in absolute numbers)
I think your example is exactly right. Men feel uncomfortable talking about feelings at all and even more so when it is about asking help. We are taught that appearing weak is one of the worst things we can do. As a result of that men also tend to have more superficial bonds and no real network of friends to help them, even if they could bring themselves to talk about it. All of this factors into the high suicide rates.
Perhaps the strong pressure to perform in career related matter, to be successful, could be another factor. If one feels like a failure I mean.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
From ethical point of view, it is not OK to deny women jobs.However, I think that specialization/differentiation is a good approach to address potential ramifications of this kind of competition in the future. Otherwise, many men can end-up unemployed and living miserably or resorting to crimes.
I would like to bring up my point about jobs not being a zero sum game. More women working is good for the economy as they create more value and there can be more consumption. A woman having a job does not necessarily steal a job from another person, rather she may create her own job (and many others) indirectly.
This is very similar to anti-immigration arguments, and it's just as wrong really.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
From ethical point of view, it is not OK to deny women jobs.However, I think that specialization/differentiation is a good approach to address potential ramifications of this kind of competition in the future. Otherwise, many men can end-up unemployed and living miserably or resorting to crimes.
Edit: My impression is that there are some men in this thread who are uncomfortable that men now only possess most of the power instead of all of it.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Edit: My impression is that there are some men in this thread who are uncomfortable that men now only possess most of the power instead of all of it.
to be fair, there are psychological and sociological issues involved with men losing that power. While in some absolute sense it might be better described as people becoming more equal, men are brought up with a lot of expectations that are tied into patriarchy and that cause them great stress.
As an anecdote, I've always been way more attracted to independent women and such. I remember an ex of mine and a good friend talking one day, and he was adamant about how it was his responsibility to take care of and provide for his woman and how that was very important to him. Me and my ex both looked at that attitude as somewhat demeaning to his gf, but to his own psychology, not having that power would be a loss of his own masculinity.
Regardless of whether equality is the optimal outcome, we have to sort of recognize that equality is opposed to a lot of what men expect of themselves in society, and totally in a non malevolent way. Like, my friend isn't a misogynist per se, it was a psychological expectation he had developed for himself sort of independent of what he thought of women.
Originally posted by Oliver North
to be fair, there are psychological and sociological issues involved with men losing that power. While in some absolute sense it might be better described as people becoming more equal, men are brought up with a lot of expectations that are tied into patriarchy and that cause them great stress.As an anecdote, I've always been way more attracted to independent women and such. I remember an ex of mine and a good friend talking one day, and he was adamant about how it was his responsibility to take care of and provide for his woman and how that was very important to him. Me and my ex both looked at that attitude as somewhat demeaning to his gf, but to his own psychology, not having that power would be a loss of his own masculinity.
Regardless of whether equality is the optimal outcome, we have to sort of recognize that equality is opposed to a lot of what men expect of themselves in society, and totally in a non malevolent way. Like, my friend isn't a misogynist per se, it was a psychological expectation he had developed for himself sort of independent of what he thought of women.
This is exactly why I think that the fundamental views of gender have to be changed (which may be somewhat utopian, but it has already happened in many ways). There is no reason men have to view themselves that way, it's just messaging from everyone (I usually say peers, authority and media) from birth that sets this standard. And it does it subtely. People who perpetrate it aren't aware of it and people being influenced by it, like your friend, aren't aware of it (spoiler: they are the same people (further spoiler: everyone))
Originally posted by Oliver North
to be fair, there are psychological and sociological issues involved with men losing that power. While in some absolute sense it might be better described as people becoming more equal, men are brought up with a lot of expectations that are tied into patriarchy and that cause them great stress.As an anecdote, I've always been way more attracted to independent women and such. I remember an ex of mine and a good friend talking one day, and he was adamant about how it was his responsibility to take care of and provide for his woman and how that was very important to him. Me and my ex both looked at that attitude as somewhat demeaning to his gf, but to his own psychology, not having that power would be a loss of his own masculinity.
Regardless of whether equality is the optimal outcome, we have to sort of recognize that equality is opposed to a lot of what men expect of themselves in society, and totally in a non malevolent way. Like, my friend isn't a misogynist per se, it was a psychological expectation he had developed for himself sort of independent of what he thought of women.
I used to think that's what I wanted (indicating the obvious au courant of men as dependable), but it's really not. Lol, not at all. I find dependable women more satisfied with themselves and their lives, and therefore easier to be around. 😄
This is like my favorite new thread.
Originally posted by dadudemon
As you should you tree-hugging hippie libtard. We don't take too kindly to your folk around these parts. *spits into a spittoon*
I should clarify: I'm pescatarian. But try saying that in the Midwest and you get blank stares. I identify as vege these days.
But seriously, I've been actively made to feel uncomfortable by people who think my choice is an affront to their love of bacon or some sh*t. In the scheme of things, it's laughable, not important or worrisome, and a great source of amusement to me to see reactions. But I'd be lying if I said some sort of pressure didn't exist.
So there was my point: as miniscule and insignificant as that ostracization [sic] is, it's still more than I've ever gotten for being male or white. Anecdotes being what they are - not proof or even data - I still wanted to share because I think it highlighted the absurdity of Raisen's stance on demographics and repression.
Originally posted by Oliver North
sooooooooooooooo, male suicide, how about that epidemic?
You became so much funnier when you stopped giving any sh*ts. I know there's a point here, but boy, did I laugh.
Originally posted by Bardock42
I wouldn't count out that the choice of method has some impact, but it definitely isn't all of it (for the US for example more men kill themselves with cutting and poison than women in absolute numbers)
oh, sure, but I think the types of gender expectations society uses have a major impact on how self mutilation expresses itself. Self harm is far more of a "cry for help" than is straight suicide, and it seems like psychologists just want to call women "stupid" for harming more than suicide, as if the behaviours are the same thing and women just don't know how to actually go through with it.
My own opinion is that, for women who cut, it is a way of taking self-control over a very, very limited part of their life (eating disorders are similar, imho), and as a way of trying to draw attention to their own issues, whereas because men aren't supposed to have issues, they turn to a more permanent method. Put in an overly simplistic form, people who cut aren't necessarily trying to kill themselves, whereas there is something about our society that drives men past that point into full on suicidal thoughts, and they have no other options than to act on it, because seeking help would be a further sign of "immasculanity".
I totally agree with everything in your other reply too
Originally posted by Digi
You became so much funnier when you stopped giving any sh*ts. I know there's a point here, but boy, did I laugh.
I'm a victim of my own cynicism 🙁
I'd love to actually have a serious conversation about gender issues that men face, but it seems people want to moan about being lampooned in cartoons more than they actually want to talk about the issues that men face in society.
Like, the whole "alpha male" thing is actually terrible for male psychology. Especially in terms of gender expectations.
I'm glad you got the joke though. It seems like nonsense to me that "men's rights" people would be so focused on trivial or superficial things... what is this, 8-9 pages in and none of them are mentioning that men kill themselves at rates that should astonish anyone, even those who pay attention to such things.
Its like I said before, in my own egotistical way, I can make the argument better than these idiots, and I don't even agree with them (also, male suicide rates are not supportive of patriarchy).
Originally posted by Bardock42
This is exactly why I think that the fundamental views of gender have to be changed (which may be somewhat utopian, but it has already happened in many ways). There is no reason men have to view themselves that way, it's just messaging from everyone (I usually say peers, authority and media) from birth that sets this standard. And it does it subtely. People who perpetrate it aren't aware of it and people being influenced by it, like your friend, aren't aware of it (spoiler: they are the same people (further spoiler: everyone))
Originally posted by Oliver North
I'm a victim of my own cynicism 🙁I'd love to actually have a serious conversation about gender issues that men face, but it seems people want to moan about being lampooned in cartoons more than they actually want to talk about the issues that men face in society.
Like, the whole "alpha male" thing is actually terrible for male psychology. Especially in terms of gender expectations.
I'm glad you got the joke though. It seems like nonsense to me that "men's rights" people would be so focused on trivial or superficial things... what is this, 8-9 pages in and none of them are mentioning that men kill themselves at rates that should astonish anyone, even those who pay attention to such things.
Its like I said before, in my own egotistical way, I can make the argument better than these idiots, and I don't even agree with them (also, male suicide rates are not supportive of patriarchy).
I see what you did there. who were you referencing in the underlined area?
Originally posted by Raisen
I see what you did there. who were you referencing in the underlined area?
you were the one who claimed the depiction of white/male/middle class in pop culture was reason to believe men were the most hard done by demographic, were you not?
your answer should therefore be self evident, re: you don't know what you are talking about.