Gaming and Feminism

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
If the majority of gamers weren't male to begin with, things would be different I'm sure. While I'm not one for having most games be a sausagefest, catering to the male demographic often is what gets devs the most money far as games go.

Well, like I said it's not like men are actually a considerably larger group than female gamers.

The conventional wisdom is indeed that games with female leads (or catering to women) don't make as much money, however that is not in any way proven, it's just a lazy assumption. And we know that some games with female leads have been successful enough.

At any rate that's fundamentally what Anita Sarkeesian is trying to change. She's trying to get game developers to consider what they do and perhaps take chances on more inclusive games, and she's trying to educate the massess to support and ask for inclusive games. I think both those goals are excellent and what she's doing is the exact right way to do it (not the only right way, but one of the right ways). Another approach is for example the App Camp for girls thing I posted previously, trying to get more girls interested in development.

i dident see the big deal that XboxOne revealed zero games featuring a female protagonist. However only a jackass would call a woman a ****

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
If the majority of gamers weren't male to begin with, things would be different I'm sure. While I'm not one for having most games be a sausagefest, catering to the male demographic often is what gets devs the most money far as games go.

That's a circular argument, though, when the games market is making games mostly FOR males, on the assumption that that is all that sells (which, as Bardock says, is spurious). You can't use the fact that the games market has created itself as a male-dominated business as an excuse for it staying that way, or use the fact that you are creating games that, basically, women hate and say that's a good reason why only male-dominated games sell. It's not some natural, desirable state of affairs. More and more females are getting into gaming now and the market should be trying to reflect that.

That's one part of the argument. The other part is not just about the market direction of gaming but how blatantly sexist a lot of it is- how even if not a single woman played games (a ludicrous assertion, of course), its portrayal of women would still be undesirable.

A more holistic games market would be larger in both scale and sales, would avoid the moral question mark and would frankly offer more choice for everyone. You could still have the straight male power fantasy and sexualised female representations (and people would be feel to criticise them for that), but it wouldn't be the vast majority of the market.

I don't think it's any coincidence that MMOs (where women have more freedom to play the characters they want to play, how they want to play them) have been a major reason for why more women than ever are gaming nowadays.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
If the majority of gamers weren't male to begin with, things would be different I'm sure. While I'm not one for having most games be a sausagefest, catering to the male demographic often is what gets devs the most money far as games go.

Men are only still the majority by a very slim margin.

As to why games targeted to them make more money - I already pointed this out previously. Games with female leads get on average 40% of the marketing budget that games with male leads do. No shit they're going to make more money off games with male leads and marketed solely to men if they spend more money getting the game out there and advertised!

Also, while this is a few months old now, it's a worthwhile read, even if I abhor Penny Arcade and Ben Kuchera in particular has rather gone off the deep end in the past few weeks.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/games-with-female-heroes-dont-sell-because-publishers-dont-support-them

Looking at a sample of 669 games that had protagonists with discernible genders, only 24 had exclusively female protagonists. Action had the most female protagonists, shooters had even less, and role-playing games had exactly one game with a female only hero. In all three genres, a little under 300 games gave the option of a female lead. That includes games where you can choose your gender or create your own character.

24 out of 669 games with female leads. That's not even 4%.

Originally posted by KingD19

😎

😆 😆 😆

Legit rofls were had for my breakfast.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
It might not be, tbh. They're both stats I just ripped off the first source that popped up on google searches.

Either way, the actual figures aren't really necessary for my overall point. You can swap them with any figures.

I agree with your point but not the figures. Those figures were ones compiled by law enforcement, iirc. Meaning, "shit that got reported." I believe a study was done that showed men were more often, physically abused by women than men do to them. The problem is...men...get much much worse than women with the battery. So they cause more severe injuries much more often. Bards already mentioned that men are less likely to report when shit gets real for men, too. Here is what might bake your noodle: real feminists (not the dumb ones...you know the ones) want equality and fairness for all genders. They want the bullshit idea that men don't have feelings to fade from existence. If a man suffers from a physically abusive female partner, he shouldn't feel ashamed to seek help. Another shocker might be that real feminists find things like "easier physical tests for women" to get into the military to be sexist. A real feminist would want the women to have to pass the same physical fitness standards as the men.

Take a look at the difference between the male and female tests:

http://www.military.com/military-fitness/marine-corps-fitness-requirements/usmc-pft-charts

WTF, brah?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Again dadudemon's point that it's not shocking or extreme for the gaming industry is correct, but that is really the issue, isn't it? The gaming industry is immensely male focused.

Right on point, dude. I should point out that I do not disagree with her overall goals/plans with gaming nor do I have a problem with her approach (other than her being boring).

I also agree with Ushgarak that changes need to come to the gaming industry.

HOWEVER....I think the changes should not be getting rid of what we have, now, but ADDING. There is still room to grow in the gaming industry. Every now and again, I think it's awesome to play a fighting game with an overly sexualized female (or an overly superhuman male hero like any comic book hero). But it is also nice to take a main character, who is female, seriously.

I may catch flack for this, but I was really pleased with the look and presentation of the new Lara Croft in the 2013 Tomb Raider. In fact, I found this version to be the sexiest of all. Here's why: she is attractive but her boobs are not huge, she is capable and skilled but not like Bayonetta crap, she is intelligent and highly educated (as opposed to the generic ass-kicking brawler type), and she undergoes actual character developed in the video game. I think those traits make her sexier than ever.

👆

What is wrong with liking the new Lara Croft?

Along with being a pretty cool young lady, she is indeed teh hawt.

Her bewbs are still pretty big though. Maybe not as big.

I also like how she isn't wearing those stupid short shorts. Something about them always bothered me.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, like I said it's not like men are actually a considerably larger group than female gamers.

The conventional wisdom is indeed that games with female leads (or catering to women) don't make as much money, however that is not in any way proven, it's just a lazy assumption. And we know that some games with female leads have been successful enough.

At any rate that's fundamentally what Anita Sarkeesian is trying to change. She's trying to get game developers to consider what they do and perhaps take chances on more inclusive games, and she's trying to educate the massess to support and ask for inclusive games. I think both those goals are excellent and what she's doing is the exact right way to do it (not the only right way, but one of the right ways). Another approach is for example the App Camp for girls thing I posted previously, trying to get more girls interested in development.

Perhaps, perhaps not, but regardless yeah. There have been such games, and hope to see more successful ones along the lines of the latest Tomb Raider in the future.

While I kinda find her annoying in a way she definitely doesn't deserve much of the flak she's been getting, but such was to be expected from some of your typical commentators I guess. Other than that I agree the App Camp thing is a great way to go.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
That's a circular argument, though, when the games market is making games mostly FOR males, on the assumption that that is all that sells (which, as Bardock says, is spurious). You can't use the fact that the games market has created itself as a male-dominated business as an excuse for it staying that way, or use the fact that you are creating games that, basically, women hate and say that's a good reason why only male-dominated games sell. It's not some natural, desirable state of affairs. More and more females are getting into gaming now and the market should be trying to reflect that.

That's one part of the argument. The other part is not just about the market direction of gaming but how blatantly sexist a lot of it is- how even if not a single woman played games (a ludicrous assertion, of course), its portrayal of women would still be undesirable.

A more holistic games market would be larger in both scale and sales, would avoid the moral question mark and would frankly offer more choice for everyone. You could still have the straight male power fantasy and sexualised female representations (and people would be feel to criticise them for that), but it wouldn't be the vast majority of the market.

Yeah, nothing to really disagree with on the whole sexism part there.

That all would certainly be a lesser evil compared to what we got going now...

Originally posted by NemeBro
What is wrong with liking the new Lara Croft?

Along with being a pretty cool young lady, she is indeed teh hawt.

Her bewbs are still pretty big though. Maybe not as big.

I also like how she isn't wearing those stupid short shorts. Something about them always bothered me.

Originally posted by dadudemon

I may catch flack for this, but I was really pleased with the look and presentation of the new Lara Croft in the 2013 Tomb Raider. In fact, I found this version to be the sexiest of all. Here's why: she is attractive but her boobs are not huge, she is capable and skilled but not like Bayonetta crap, she is intelligent and highly educated (as opposed to the generic ass-kicking brawler type), and she undergoes actual character developed in the video game. I think those traits make her sexier than ever.

Why would you catch flak for that?

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Nowhere did I say that games made mainly for males are all that sells, nor am I necessarily trying to make excuses for gaming to remain as it is as far as being a primarily male-dominated business.

Well, you did say the situation is down to gamers being mostly male and that the profit was to be found in catering for that demographic. I was pointing out that that argument is circular for the reasons I gave. Treat the post as attacking that excuse from developers rather than your position if you prefer.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Why would you catch flak for that?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
For perceived objectification, I assume.

This and the other side of things: she had things attractive about her other than her assets. This thread seems to have several of the other side of the feminist argument. It's fairly polar.

Oh, okay...

The main issue with the new Tomb Raider is that it revels in beating the shit out of a young, traumatized woman.

It is an amazing game, and I did greatly enjoy the new characterization and look they gave Lara. However, the game is still not without its issues.

That said, I am glad that games like Tomb Raider, Mirror's Edge, Remember Me, exist. At the same time, I am saddened by the fact that they are so uncommon.

The main issue with the new Tomb Raider is that it revels in beating the shit out of a young, traumatized woman.

Not sure what you mean, here. Video game protagonists generally go through some god awful things. Especially if you fail a crucial QTE. shrug Wouldn't sparing her the violence because she's a young, traumatized woman actually be sexist and perpetuate the flawed idea that female protagonists need to be treated more gently?

I'm speaking solely on the subject of the game beating her up, here.

No, and obviously as games that don't contain violence are few and far between, there's going to be some level of it there. I mean more that the game goes out of its way to inflict horrible things on her - there's definitely a level of violence towards Lara that I haven't often seen towards the main character of other games very often.

I haven't played the game, but the trailer was definitely designed to show her getting beaten up and attacked and in pain with lots of suggestive moans, etc. Was kinda sick, but the game might still be good obviously.

In theory that should make it that much more satisfying and moving when she gains the position of strength and rises.

However I can totally believe that its gratuitous and emotionally manipulative. I think thats basically what they said.

I honestly felt like the barbarism and violence, while being a device to make you sympathise with her, was also positive in the sense that it portrayed just how brutal and dangerous her situation was.

Not to mention that by the end of the game, Lara is just as capable of dishing it out as she is taking it, and some of those kills she can perform are pretty nasty.

I think that, being an origin story, and wanting to fit that entire "taking her from point a to point b" theme in to one game, they were going to have to push her to extremes to achieve it. And it made sense, too. This game was the making of Lara, and I honestly enjoyed it.