Originally posted by Omega Vision
I think Lestov might be seeing things with Jack Bauer goggles.
Possibly. I'm more of an optimist though (sometimes).
Originally posted by Newjak
Doesn't mean the US can't operate like those governments in the future.
Only if US citizens allow that to happen. A Hitler-esque guy isn't going to be nominated POTUS and start making his own rules with no repercussions. Again, the US doesn't work like that, and only will if the American people allow it to happen.
Originally posted by Lestov16You think every country that had this type of abuse happen were all different than the US prior to it happening?
Possibly. I'm more of an optimist though (sometimes).Only if US citizens allow that to happen. A Hitler-esque guy isn't going to be nominated POTUS and start making his own rules with no repercussions. Again, the US doesn't work like that, and only will if the American people allow it to happen.
Cause things change often slowly. Just because you feel the US doesn't work like that now doesn't mean it won't happen in the future.
The idea that government can collect personal data on everyone and the only checks placed on them are self imposed is a problem imo.
I would also like to see how many plots this has uncovered vs how much potential for harm it gives.
Also it wasn't like Hitler was elected because he was a tyrant he forced/scammed his way in through the German people.
Originally posted by Lestov16
But there's no reason to think they've been used to harm any victims either.Is this historical precedent Stalinist Russia or Nazi Germany? Because the US doesn't operate like those governments.
We have two groups of hypothetical people: People harmed by massive gathering of personal information. People saved by massive gathering of personal information.
History shows us the first happening.
Nothing shows us the second happening.
If the NSA reveals the cases where it has used PRISM to save lives then we could have a discussion about weighing privacy against security, but they haven't so we can't. If I give you a cyanide tablet and say it will save your life you would be right to not swallow it until I give you a very good reason. There is a known risk to ingesting cyanide and no known benefit. We should apply the same standard to all dangerous things.
Originally posted by Newjak
You think every country that had this type of abuse happen were all different than the US prior to it happening?
Yes. Did democracy define their governments like the US government?
Originally posted by Newjak
Cause things change often slowly. Just because you feel the US doesn't work like that now doesn't mean it won't happen in the future.
I'm not saying it won't happen, but if it does, it's the fault of the US people for allowing it to happen. The NSA surveillance system would be beneficial to any government, whether repressive or democratic.
Originally posted by Newjak
The idea that government can collect personal data on everyone and the only checks placed on them are self imposed is a problem imo.
Only if the system is abused, and it hasn't been. The US has responsibly used the system only for tracking terrorists rather than persecuting dissidents.
Originally posted by Newjak
I would also like to see how many plots this has uncovered vs how much potential for harm it gives.
I would like to see proven abuses of NSA surveillance vs how much potential for preventing crimes it has.
Originally posted by Newjak
Also it wasn't like Hitler was elected because he was a tyrant he forced/scammed his way in through the German people.
Because Germany was facing it's worst economic crisis ever and the WWI reparations weren't helping. The state of Germany in 1933 wasn't the same as the contemporary US, or the future US unless we decide to get involved a costly war with another superpower.
Originally posted by Newjak
You think every country that had this type of abuse happen were all different than the US prior to it happening?
Not to say it can't happen, (it's definitely something to be on guard about) but America would be something of a first if this happened.
It's just that American policy, even at it's most corrupt, is all about democracy. It was founded on that principle and even if it strays somewhat from that ideal, it will never be completely separated from it. Thus I don't see a scenario in which the US government seizes totalitarian power unless it's the aftermath of WWIII with another superpower. As such, I trust the NSA with my secrets because unless shit gets really bad, I can't see them using it to abuse me.
Originally posted by Omega VisionDo you feel the US system is unflawed?
Umm...yes. I can't really think of any examples of a stable (and true) democracy becoming a dictatorship through slow erosion of rights and freedoms. When major democratic backsliding occurs it's always in a country that already has a flawed system.Not to say it can't happen, (it's definitely something to be on guard about) but America would be something of a first if this happened.
Also wasn't Rome a republic that allowed someone named Ceaser to take power. I know not the same system but roughly the same idea of representative government being taken over through abuse of the said representative system.
Also Germany at the time of Hitler being elected was considered a democracy. I know it was under extreme circumstances that the people allowed Hitler to take their freedoms away but it did happen. People were afraid and a monster used it to his advantage.
Other than Lestov saying it can't happen here there is no reason to believe abuse of such a system can't happen here especially concerning history.
Originally posted by Lestov16At it's most corrupt the government can impose it's will on the people without them being able to stop it.
It's just that American policy, even at it's most corrupt, is all about democracy. It was founded on that principle and even if it strays somewhat from that ideal, it will never be completely separated from it. Thus I don't see a scenario in which the US government seizes totalitarian power unless it's the aftermath of WWIII with another superpower. As such, I trust the NSA with my secrets because unless shit gets really bad, I can't see them using it to abuse me.
I'm not saying it always happens,I'm not a conspiracy nut, but to ignore the fact it could happen because you want to feel safer is a common trend in history that doesn't end well for the people.
Originally posted by Newjak
Do you feel the US system is unflawed?
There's no such thing as a perfect system, but for its faults America is still a full and stable democracy.
Also wasn't Rome a republic that allowed someone named Ceaser to take power. I know not the same system but roughly the same idea of representative government being taken over through abuse of the said representative system.
Also Germany at the time of Hitler being elected was considered a democracy. I know it was under extreme circumstances that the people allowed Hitler to take their freedoms away but it did happen. People were afraid and a monster used it to his advantage.
Other than Lestov saying it can't happen here there is no reason to believe abuse of such a system can't happen here especially concerning history.
[/B]
Originally posted by Omega VisionMost people would consider later Ceasers a determent to their living. I mean most people were okay with Julius Ceaser ruling because he was preventing bad things at the time. Most people are it's when the power starts to get abused that people generally realize it started with good intentions. An Army that was under his control because of the title he was holding at the time. I know his men loved him but it was mainly his position that gave him the power to use them. Him not giving back his power is also an abuse of the system.
When I say "flawed" I mean it in the sense that the Democracy Index considers a democracy "flawed."There's no such thing as a perfect system, but for its faults America is still a full and stable democracy.
Not really. Not by the modern sense. Cesar taking over from the Senate didn't really change the lot of the common people much for better or worse. The vast majority of Rome's population had already been totally disenfranchised from the political process. And Cesar didn't "abuse" the system--he ignored it. He marched an army into Rome and proclaimed himself ruler.
The Weimar Republic was a fragile system that would have failed anyway even if Hitler hadn't taken over. Germany had no tradition of democracy in the sense that America has one. If you look at the leadership of the Weimar Republic prior to the Nazi takeover, many of them were Junkers--Prussian nobility, the same people who'd ruled the German Empire prior to and during WWI. So no, not a democracy to compare with America.
I'm not arguing that it can't happen, just that it happening to America would be unprecedented (or close to it) historically. It would be a black swan event, which is very different from saying it's impossible (it certainly isn't.)
You asked for Democracies I've given you a democracy. Hitler was elected(I'll admit through suspect means) but still elected.
Historically governments change and abuse power all the time so it happening to America is not that unprecedented imo. I would say a possible modern analogy would be what had been happening in Greece.
Originally posted by Newjak
Most people would consider later Ceasers a determent to their living. I mean most people were okay with Julius Ceaser ruling because he was preventing bad things at the time. Most people are it's when the power starts to get abused that people generally realize it started with good intentions. An Army that was under his control because of the title he was holding at the time. I know his men loved him but it was mainly his position that gave him the power to use them. Him not giving back his power is also an abuse of the system.
You asked for Democracies I've given you a democracy. Hitler was elected(I'll admit through suspect means) but still elected.
Historically governments change and abuse power all the time so it happening to America is not that unprecedented imo. I would say a possible modern analogy would be what had been happening in Greece.
Originally posted by Omega VisionFair point but Ceaser was given extra power he didn't have and eventually abused it to maintain it or get more.
You're speaking from a modern view on governance and legitimacy, a Post Magna Carta viewpoint. What the people wanted was irrelevant to Cesar AND to the Senate. They governed because they were rich and had soldiers. There wasn't even the appearance of governing by popular will as we see in modern dictatorships.The Weimar Republic is not comparable to modern America, so the comparison doesn't work.
Greece is a lot closer to America's situation than the others you've mentioned, but it still hasn't been taken over by Golden Dawn, and rampant corruption there makes Washington scandals look like nothing.
It is a democracy that allowed someone to become a dictator.
Greece is in bad shape though because of that corruption and america could just easily head there.
Originally posted by Lestov16You mean like giving up their freedom to privacy because of a fear of terrorism attacks...
I'm not saying that it's absolutely 100% impossible, but given that the core of American ideology is "democracy" and "free rights", it would have to be [b]one hell of an circumstance to get the American people to give up their liberties to a totalitarian government. [/B]
I don't think anyone sane here is trying to say the end is tomorrow. But giving the government such a huge power boost over people is a huge red flag. And gives future people the possibility of abusing said power.
Originally posted by Lestov16Given any amount of time there will be information that can be used against you. I doubt after all you only talk, email, google search about bagels. And most people aren't concerned with what they are doing now it's how easily that system can be abused.
Invasion of privacy is only a problem if the information gathered is actually used against me. Why would I care if a phone conversation I had about bagels goes into a database never to be seen again.
so, at the risk of violating my self imposed exile due to not being able to stomach idiotic positions like those espoused by lestov, here is, yet again, a Canadian terror attempt solved by typical police work with no need of violating the rights of Canadian citizens.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/07/02/british-columbia-rcmp-to-announce-terror-charges-tuesday/
so sorry that I can't not stress over small things or endure small minded people. I'll just laugh while you self-justify your own way into tyranny...
Exactly. It's only a potential threat, only capable of being abused if the US citizens elect someone that slimy, and at that point, it's the US people's fault, not the NSA.
But as for now, if the system is not being abused, I won't criticize it. I'd much rather prevent crime than have to react to it.
Originally posted by Lestov16So you would be okay with a King as long they prevented crime and didn't abuse their power?
Exactly. It's only a potential threat, only capable of being abused if the US citizens elect someone that slimy, and at that point, it's the US people's fault, not the NSA.But as for now, if the system is not being abused, I won't criticize it. I'd much rather prevent crime than have to react to it.
Most slimey people don't go around advertising they are slimy. It's a gradual decline in freedoms. That's how it works.
Originally posted by Oliver North
so, at the risk of violating my self imposed exile due to not being able to stomach idiotic positions like those espoused by lestov, here is, yet again, a Canadian terror attempt solved by typical police work with no need of violating the rights of Canadian citizens.http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/07/02/british-columbia-rcmp-to-announce-terror-charges-tuesday/
so sorry that I can't not stress over small things or endure small minded people. I'll just laugh while you self-justify your own way into tyranny...
And who is bringing this tyranny? Is the NSA breaking into people's homes because they said they don't like Obama or Bush? And hypothetical 1984 scenarios are improbable unless the US undergoes a massive policy shift, which will not be done without the consent of the American people.
The totalitarian Ingsoc government you're trying to portray the US government as is simply false. It may not be perfect, and there are some self-serving politicians out here, but it is predominantly a democracy. The government turning into a tyranny is possible, but would involve unpredictable circumstances to occur.