Originally posted by steveholt956
We've pretty much agreed on this forum that while Sidious still ranks #1 in overall force knowledge, Vitiate is the ultimate dark side master.
I haven't agreed to this and I surely haven't seen any proof for it. As far as the dark side, Sidious has studied more than just sith-lore, he's also studied from other dark side cults. Even in Plagueis, Sidious already had knowledge of nightsister magic. But yeah, I agree that Vitiate most likely has more knowledge of the dark side than ROTS Sidious, but that's irrelevant considering he has nothing on Sidious in combat other that the two powers I listed.
Originally posted by steveholt956
So no, that's not all he has on him.
Oh, yeah, and he's lived longer.
Combat-oriented powers, yes that's all Vitiate had on ROTS Sidious at that time. And don't bring up the time Vitiate supposedly brought down a temple because that was, what, hundreds of years after his fight with Revan? Sidious shits all over Vitiate in combat.
Originally posted by steveholt956
Again with trying to predict what a character is going to do.
I go by what a character is capable of. And Sidious is prone to do that. Unless you're trying to suggest that Sidious would come at Revan the same way Vitiate came at him, but then you'd also be trying to predict what a character will do.
Originally posted by steveholt956
The only way Revan overcame Vitiate's mental attacks was by becoming one with the force, equal parts dark side and light.
That's nice, but what's your point? I'm not saying Sidious will try to mentally dominate Revan.
Originally posted by steveholt956
What's Revan going to do? Apparently he had the fold space ability, which means he'd go from point A to point B in enough time.
Apparently, huh?
I was under the impression that it wasn't confirmed that Revan knows this ability, and it seems as though you are unsure if he does. But it'd be nice if you can name a time when Revan used it. But if he does have this ability, and if he's able to use it before Sidious can slaughter him, then it would be a smart move for him to use it to escape.
And since we are being silly here, apparently Tiin has light speed reaction, seeing how he can use the force to navigate ships in hyperspace, and avoid space debri. So if Sidious can slaughter someone who has light speed reaction before he could react, how is Revan going to use "fold space" before Sidious manages to cut him down?
Originally posted by steveholt956
I did not say Revan would win a saber battle
So how is he comparable to Sidious then? How would he be capable of taking any wins against Sidious? By handling his lightning for some time? Because that's likely the only thing he may be able to defend against, but that wouldn't grant him any wins whatsoever.
Again, if Sidious can easily overpower two extremely powerful force users at once, then I'm not seeing how he can't overpower Revan, especially considering that Revan hasn't done anything with TK to suggest he's as powerful as Maul in that area, let alone Maul and Savage combined.
Originally posted by steveholt956
but Revan's known accolades are more than enough to give him an even footing with ROTS Sidious.
First you say Krayt can stomp Dooku, now you claim Revan is on even footing with Sidious? lmao
My questions for you in this post are more for you do think about how stupid you sound, but don't waste you're time responding, because I definitely won't waste my time reading your response. You're as bad as LeGenD.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Feats and accolades? Nah.
What accolades does Revan have that even approaches Sidious's? Maul seems to have comparable accolades to Revan, and Maul's accolades fall short to Sidious's.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Revan wasn't just highly skilled a la Kit Fisto, but was a tried and true prodigy of enormous caliber.
Yeah, but it wasn't just Kit by himself that Sidious faced.
Furthermore, Tiin was said to have one of the strongest force abilities of all jedi, which seems to indicate that he was also a force prodigy, on top of being a celebrated sword master. And then there's Kolar who basically walked all over Vos in a saber duel. So if Sidious can take on all three of them at once, and easily slaughter them despite Windu being alongside them, then I'm not seeing how Revan would put up much of a struggle against him.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Taking on Star Forge imbued Malak, smoking Nyriss, putting Vitiate on his royal ass twice... He's not fodder for ROTS Sidious.
Well, you already know all of Maul's and Savage's feats, so no need for me to list them. But do you honestly think Revan is more powerful than both of them combined?
My questions for you in this post are more for you do think about how stupid you sound, but don't waste you're time responding, because I definitely won't waste my time reading your response. You're as bad as LeGenD.
Well, you already know all of Maul's and Savage's feats, so no need for me to list them. But do you honestly think Revan is more powerful than both of them combined?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Krayt's armor didn't afford him certain degree of protection against it? The fact that he was standing even after such a stab is an indication that the wound inflicted upon him wasn't life-threatening to him, thanks to his armor.
No, it was in a gap in the armor, near the neck, not a blow to the armor, which would've been a lot less serious. It went in around the base of the neck and came out the front of his chest on the right side.
And the stab and the force-lightning duel were simultaneous. They started shooting lightning, Azlyn leapt in, he was hit by Muur's lightning with the saber still in him, sticking out of his chest.
Revan could heal even severe wounds (inflicted upon him) with his Force abilities without need of medical attention by the way. Non life-threatening wounds wouldn't even register to him.
I'm not talking 'get hit, then fight through the damage.' I mean, "He starts the lightning exchange, gets stabbed in the neck while doing so, interrupting his lightning and causing him to get zapped (a zap so intense that Azlyn, even being close to it, was fatally burned and only Cade's power kept her alive long enough to get Vader-like mechanical assistance. She fell to the ground before getting the full treatment- Muur continued to blast in a sustained manner until he was thrown off the cliff).
The saber wound in itself would be extremely life-threatening by normal standards.
It should be noted that all this did not kill him, nor did the fall from the cliff. Wyyrlok then showed up and zapped him while he was down.
Dude does not die easily, even before he gets his revive technique.
Read this:"Your thoughts betray you," Plagueis said. "Do you think that Malak's powers were weakened by Revan's lightsaber? Bane by being encrusted in orbalisks? Do you think Gravid's young apprentice was hindered by the prosthesis she was forced to wear after fighting him?"
"No, Master."
(Source: Star Wars: Darth Plagueis)
So?
Different situation. While Gravid's apprentice wasn't hindered by the prosthesis- or at least not to a significant degree, though arguably prosthesis have been shown to be overall a bit of a disadvantage- I bet losing it during the fight itself was something of a disadvantage til she had a chance to get patched up! Wounds still matter, even if you can fight through them.
I can't think of anyone would could fight at full with a lightsaber actually stuck through their chest.
(And speaking of odd examples, Bane was boosted by his orbalisks!)
Originally posted by ares834
Are we really accusing people of bias? Again?Everyone has their favorite characters and eras; no one is objective.
Yes, but there is a difference between having a favorite, and consistently rating wide swaths higher or lower than their feats can justify.
We can have some bias, but we can also recognize when we have bias and aren't rating things by the same standards.
Originally posted by Q99No, it was in a gap in the armor, near the neck, not a blow to the armor, which would've been a lot less serious. It went in around the base of the neck and came out the front of his chest on the right side.[/B]
Pfft! Life-threatening? Thats a mere paper-cut!
(seriously though holy shit)
Edit: The orbalisks boosted Bane, but also subjected him to intense, perpetual agony. I think the relevant thing is that Bane didn't allow this to affect his abilities.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
My gut tells me Sidious would waste Revan. He's taken out three council members, who were regarded as celebrated swordmaster, being among the best of their time, in seconds. Kit was one of those council members, who is at least on par with Kenobi in bladework. Kolar was another, whose skill with a blade allowed him to outright dominate Vos in a duel. And then there was master Tiin, who doesn't have any saber feats that I'm aware of, but he was said to have one of the strongest force abilities of all jedi of his time, and he does have exceptional reaction speed, which is a huge advantage in saber dueling. Palpatine slaughtered all of them quickly despite Windu being alongside them.
What is your point?
The reason that Sidious easily outgunned the trio of Fisto, Kolar and Tinn is because his command of the Force was much superior to theirs; this doesn't implies that Sidious was better duelist then them on technical level but that they didn't register before him in the context of command of the Force.
Revan's command of the Force is extraordinary by all accounts. He isn't fodder for anybody.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He's also effortlessly dominated both Maul and Savage simultaneously with the force. And both Maul and Savage have better TK feats than Revan. Maul has consistently owned and rag-dolled Obi Wan with the force, has collapsed a cave ceiling, has hurled a ship. Savage has rag-dolled both Anakin and Obi Wan simultaneously, hurled a ship, broke out of jail cell with a force wave, floored several battle droids and Anakin & Kenobi all at the same time, force choked and levitated both Dooku and Ventress at the same time (granted he did do this in a fit of rage, but it still shows the raw force power he possesses). All that, and yet Sidious effortlessly held them pinned to a wall despite their efforts to break free.
Here is explanation of each feat of Revan in the novel:-
1. Up against Mandalorians on Rekkiad, Revan (effortlessly) instantly moved a heavy object made of stone towards his position to cover himself from the blast of 3 grenades thrown near his position.
Ever seen a Force-user move a heavy object instantly?
2. Up against Imperial Guard on Dromund Kaas, Revan (effortlessely) destroyed a large Vaulted Stone Archway structure to block the path of reinforcements from afar.
This is more impressive then Dooku's stone-shattering feat on Geonosis in AOTC.
3. The door(s) blasting action was self-control based one; Revan didn't wanted to destroy those two gigantic doors because he planned to seal them once inside the throne room.
We never saw what Revan can do when he actually gathers power. He gathered power only once during his fight against Vitiate (in the entire novel). Though the author conveyed to me via email that Revan is a TK powerhouse.
Most importantly, TK feats do not reveal how effective an individual would be against another powerful individual in combat situations.
Some examples:
1. Bane's building-shattering power did nothing to Kas'im.
2. Anakin couldn't overwhelm Obi-Wan with his Force push.
3. Satele shattered a gigantic tree with one hand and held off Malgus at bay with another hand simultaneously but got manhandled by the same Sith Lord a moments later.
4. Dooku's impressive TK feats didn't help him against his final duel against Anakin.
5. Vitiate could demolish (gigantic) building(s) with his TK abilities but he couldn't overwhelm HoT during their second encounter, granted that he was in weakened condition and this fight was circumstantial but still...
Get the memo?
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Revan doesn't hold a candle to ROTS Sidious. Sidious has far better feats and accolade's than Revan. I believe even Maul can put up a decent fight against Revan. Revan is powerful, no doubt, but even as of ROTS, there are not too many force users who can tangle with Sidious in combat.
Accolades wise, Revan have been declared as:
1. Jedi Order's most powerful champion
2. Heart of the Force
3. Command of the Force superior to that of every one whom Meetra Surik have met
4. Impressed many Sith Lords including Darth Traya, Darth Bane, Ajunta Pall, Darth Malak and Darth Rivan.
He isn't much behind Sidious in accolades.
What extraordinary TK feats Sidious have shown by the way? Not one as per my knowledge. We know that he is extremely powerful from his performances against other powerful individuals and the accolades he received; same is true for Revan.
In-fact, Sidious is much more explored character then Revan; Sidious's powers are easier to quantify accordingly.
Revan have got one novel thus far; most of his story has been explored in games which do not quantify his powers much. However, Revan's over-all accomplishments are amazing by the mythos standards.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
I completely agree S66: I wasn't trying to make an argument either way, but really, my gut does tell me that he's somewhere around Plagueis' level.But, of course, so can everyone say about anyone.
Regarding feats and accolades, Sidious would slaughter Revan completely, I agree. Had Fisto not had Windu at his side he would undoubtedly been blitzed.
Read my response above this one.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
This is Revan's best speed feat than I can find is moving in a blur while deflecting blaster bolts:Revan was in motion, his lightsaber flashing to life, before the words had finished spilling from her mouth. As Veela and two of the others—reacting slightly faster than the rest—fired their blasters, the green blade transformed into a spinning, twirling blur as he used it to deflect their bolts back in the direction of the shooters.
-Revan
Tiin's best is moving his blade so fast it expands into a shield:
Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Tiin, and Ki-Adi-Mundi surged from the pyramid entrance, engaging the terrorists that had driven them back. A quarter of the way across the immense plaza, the Jedi spread out in a wedge formation, their constantly moving blades fending off blaster bolts loosed from ahead and to either side. Behind the energy barrier fashioned by the lightsabers, Yaddle, Depa, Vergere, and two of the judicials raced out to divert fire from the rear.
-Cloak of Deception
Fisto blows both out of the water, moving so fast that Kenobi saw him as moving in three directions at once:
From the corner of his eye he saw that Kit had made his way almost to Ventress, and what he saw as the Nautolan increased his efforts almost broke Obi-Wan's concentration. His companion was a living, martial hurricane, his body moving in two and three directions at once, joints flexing, unlimited by human vertebral restraints.
-The Cestus Deception
Besides, S66, you already know my say on Revan vs Maul. [/B]
Some of these authors are describing visual effects rather then actual actions.
Here is an example of a lightsaber swing looking like a shield:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/G/01/videogames/detail-page/B001BWRBB2.02.lg.jpg
Here is an example of a lightsaber swing looking like a blur:
http://artfiles.alphacoders.com/564/56451.jpg
---
More impressive Revan's showing is against an Imperial Guard individual; a lone Imperial Guard individual is a match for a well-trained Jedi/Sith in dueling abilities. Revan cut down one in a matter of few steps. This particular feat is actually a true indicator of Revan's dueling ability. It implies that Revan can cut down a well-trained Jedi/Sith duelist in few steps/seconds.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Abandon ship! Heart of the Force quote spotted!
Some sources have elaborated on this a bit:-
1. In those days, he had believed this would protect him from the dark side, but he no longer had any such illusions. He was older and wiser. He understood that the two sides of the Force were more closely intertwined with each other than either the Jedi or the Sith would ever admit. He had learned to balance on the knife-edge between them, drawing on both the light and dark sides for strength.
2. Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in its purest form.
3. Like Revan, the Emperor understood the Force in ways Scourge never would.
4. SWTOR game also offers important hints.
The accolade is hyperbolic but their is merit behind it. Revan understood Force in the ways that few did in the whole mythos. In-fact, Revan's time and space bending feat in SWTOR is sufficient indicator.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The only thing Vitiate at that time has on ROTS Sidious, is probably telepathy, and force drain.
Perhaps this thread would open your eyes:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=651536
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious, most likely, will not come at Revan the way Vitiate did. Vitiate wasted time trying to dominate Revan mentally. What is Revan going to do if Sidious comes at him the way he did the council members? You can ignore the feats and accolades of the council member all you want, but it changes nothing I said. Being firmly below Yoda, Sidious, and Windu, does not mean they are not among the best. What has Revan done in sabers that suggests he is bigger threat than all three of those masters put together saber-wise? Also, what feats in TK does Revan have that would suggest he can overcome a TK attack from someone who can easily over power two extremely powerful TK user simultaneously?
Revan doesn't have to match Sidious blade for blade; he would let the Force guide his hand instead. Bane employed this approach to handle Kas'im who was relatively much superior duelist. However, Bane had acquired such level of command of the Force that he could perform feats with will.
Dueling abilities wise, Revan can actually curbstomp even a well-trained Jedi/Sith. He proved this when he fought an Imperial Guard individual.
In holistic scale, Revan have much greater accomplishments under hi belt then the trio of Fisto, Tinn and Kolar put together. Do the math.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
As for Sidious losing to Mace, I've went over that argument countless times, and it gets old. And I don't see why I should waste my time going over it with someone who claims Krayt would stomp someone like Dooku, and disregards feats of characters from an era you don't like.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Both S66 and you are misinformed about how to evaluate characters for versus debates.
I'm ready to say this though: it is fortunate and unfortunate at the same time that Revan has so little of good feats.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is childish way of comparing actions performed by each individual. We all know that descriptions such as these lead to nothing.Some of these authors are describing visual effects rather then actual actions.
Here is an example of a lightsaber swing looking like a shield:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/G/01/videogames/detail-page/B001BWRBB2.02.lg.jpg
Here is an example of a lightsaber swing looking like a blur:
And what's your point?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
---More impressive Revan's showing is against an Imperial Guard individual; a lone Imperial Guard individual is a match for a well-trained Jedi/Sith in dueling abilities. Revan cut down one in a matter of few steps. This particular feat is actually a true indicator of Revan's dueling ability. It implies that Revan can cut down a well-trained Jedi/Sith duelist in few steps/seconds.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
A comparison between feats and accolades plus taking context, environment etc into account is what I subscribe to
Originally posted by Intrepid37
What are Revan's ''known accolades'' exactly...?
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Based on feats and accolades, Revan does get steamrolled.Sidious stomps in my opinion.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Malak and Nyriss have done exactly what?
1. Became powerful enough to control an entire Sith Empire under Revan's absence. This feat alone puts him on par with prominent Sith Lords of the mythos. Managing and controlling a Sith Empire is very different from doing the same with Republic.
2. Handled the trio of Carth (a decorated Republic Officer), Bastilla Shan (a powerful Jedi) and Revan (does he needs introduction?) simultaneously on his flagship Leviathan in a fight.
3. Cuts down Jedi like fodder.
4. On Star Forge, Malak was siphoning energies from several Jedi captives to fuel his power.
Nyriss:-
1. Acquired a seat in Dark Council and lasted two decades in it; in the Dark Council, (genuinely) powerful individuals do not often last a month sometimes, let alone acquiring a seat in it.
2. Subdued both Scourge and Meetra simultaneously; both of whom are among the (true) heavy weights of the mythos themselves.
3. Was adept in Sith Sorcery
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Anyways, I disagree. Sidious has repeatedly shown higher capability regarding skill, speed, power etc, all of which I doubt I need remind you of.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Please don't make me laugh. Though you are improving.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The list is impressive even by accolade's standards.
I was asking a question.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Excuse me?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malak:-1. Became powerful enough to control an entire Sith Empire under Revan's absence. This feat alone puts him on par with prominent Sith Lords of the mythos. Managing and controlling a Sith Empire is very different from doing the same with Republic.
2. Handled the trio of Carth (a decorated Republic Officer), Bastilla Shan (a powerful Jedi) and Revan (does he needs introduction?) simultaneously on his flagship Leviathan in a fight.
3. Cuts down Jedi like fodder.
4. On Star Forge, Malak was siphoning energies from several Jedi captives to fuel his power.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nyriss:-1. Acquired a seat in Dark Council and lasted two decades in it; in the Dark Council, (genuinely) powerful individuals do not often last a month sometimes, let alone acquiring a seat in it.
Sidious slaughtered three Jedi Council members, so what?2. Subdued both Scourge and Meetra simultaneously; both of whom are among the (true) heavy weights of the mythos themselves.
3. Was adept in Sith Sorcery
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Command of the Force on the whole reflects upon a Force-user's speed, skill and power.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I haven't agreed to this and I surely haven't seen any proof for it. As far as the dark side, Sidious has studied more than just sith-lore, he's also studied from other dark side cults. Even in Plagueis, Sidious already had knowledge of nightsister magic. But yeah, I agree that Vitiate most likely has more knowledge of the dark side than ROTS Sidious, but that's irrelevant considering he has nothing on Sidious in combat other that the two powers I listed.
Vitiate's most (known) potent abilities do not even have a description yet. For example: Vitiate once single-handely purged an entire Dark Council with some mysterious power which seemingly bypassed their defenses. No, this event is different from the one described in Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan novel.
In addition, Vitiate can actually one-shot even HoT (during their second encounter in-fact) with the same power that he unleashed on Revan to destroy him.
DO NOT underestimate Vitiate. He was canonically already "supremely powerful in the dark side" while on Nathema (gained control of the entire planet forcefully at the age of 13); after the ritual, he acquired entity like condition (siphoned energies from countless sources to fuel his power). With passage of time, he was Abeloth in the making and/or most likely much worse.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Oh, yeah, and he's lived longer.Combat-oriented powers, yes that's all Vitiate had on ROTS Sidious at that time. And don't bring up the time Vitiate supposedly brought down a temple because that was, what, hundreds of years after his fight with Revan? Sidious shits all over Vitiate in combat.
You would rank # 1 in "delusional fanboy" contest.
Their is virtually nothing that Sidious can throw at Vitiate that the latter cannot handle and/or survive.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I go by what a character is capable of. And Sidious is prone to do that. Unless you're trying to suggest that Sidious would come at Revan the same way Vitiate came at him, but then you'd also be trying to predict what a character will do.
Here is a hint: Sidious is a well known character of the mythos. Many are typically familiar with his capabilities. Stop assuming that you need to wank Sidious again and again to make a point.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Apparently, huh?I was under the impression that it wasn't confirmed that Revan knows this ability, and it seems as though you are unsure if he does. But it'd be nice if you can name a time when Revan used it. But if he does have this ability, and if he's able to use it before Sidious can slaughter him, then it would be a smart move for him to use it to escape.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And since we are being silly here, apparently Tiin has light speed reaction, seeing how he can use the force to navigate ships in hyperspace, and avoid space debri. So if Sidious can slaughter someone who has light speed reaction before he could react, how is Revan going to use "fold space" before Sidious manages to cut him down?
Both Revan and Anakin were exceptional pilots as well.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So how is he comparable to Sidious then? How would he be capable of taking any wins against Sidious? By handling his lightning for some time? Because that's likely the only thing he may be able to defend against, but that wouldn't grant him any wins whatsoever.
As far as dueling abilities are concerned, it is not clear how Revan will perform against Sidious but the former was also skilled enough to curbstomp even a trained Jedi/Sith in this aspect. Revan's extraordinary command of the Force would be his saving point much like Bane's against Kas'im.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Again, if Sidious can easily overpower two extremely powerful force users at once, then I'm not seeing how he can't overpower Revan, especially considering that Revan hasn't done anything with TK to suggest he's as powerful as Maul in that area, let alone Maul and Savage combined.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
My questions for you in this post are more for you do think about how stupid you sound, but don't waste you're time responding, because I definitely won't waste my time reading your response. You're as bad as LeGenD.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What accolades does Revan have that even approaches Sidious's? Maul seems to have comparable accolades to Revan, and Maul's accolades fall short to Sidious's.
Revan on the other hand;
1. Jedi Order's most powerful champion.
2. Heart of the Force.
3. Understood Force in the ways that others couldn't comprehend barring few.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, but it wasn't just Kit by himself that Sidious faced.Furthermore, Tiin was said to have one of the strongest force abilities of all jedi, which seems to indicate that he was also a force prodigy, on top of being a celebrated sword master. And then there's Kolar who basically walked all over Vos in a saber duel. So if Sidious can take on all three of them at once, and easily slaughter them despite Windu being alongside them, then I'm not seeing how Revan would put up much of a struggle against him.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well, you already know all of Maul's and Savage's feats, so no need for me to list them. But do you honestly think Revan is more powerful than both of them combined?
His command of the Force was superior to the likes of Nihilus, Traya and Sion (as per Meetra). Do the math.
She still wasn’t sure what to make of Lord Scourge. She had sensed that his offer to work together was sincere, though she wondered how much of that was Revan’s doing. It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan’s command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met. And she knew how charismatic he could be. Even though he was a prisoner it wasn’t hard to imagine him being in total control of the situation.
