assuming this post-illuminati retcon (mutant/inhuman) beyonder (which is the one shown in the picture) he is powerful but he lacks feats, it was mentioned that he's omnipotent and omniscient but he didn't display any feats on a universal scale (only statements about him defying all space and time, natural order of the universe, etc..) only planet level feats, we even see him kneel before black bolt.............molecule man isn't any better tbh, in dark avengers he was effortlessly owning everyone, killed sentry 3 times, then sentry suddenly managed to defeat him in the end....
on the other hand, it's actually stated that destiny doesn't ever use his full powers, so im not sure what's the point of having him in a battle thread, though dream does have multiversal feats (indirectly).
so im siding with the dc team, based on feats.
Originally posted by operator616👆
assuming this post-illuminati retcon (mutant/inhuman) beyonder (which is the one shown in the picture) he is powerful but he lacks feats, it was mentioned that he's omnipotent and omniscient but he didn't display any feats on a universal scale (only statements about him defying all space and time, natural order of the universe, etc..) only planet level feats, we even see him kneel before black bolt.............molecule man isn't any better tbh, in dark avengers he was effortlessly owning everyone, killed sentry 3 times, then sentry suddenly managed to defeat him in the end....on the other hand, it's actually stated that destiny doesn't ever use his full powers, so im not sure what's the point of having him in a battle thread, though dream does have multiversal feats (indirectly).
so im siding with the dc team, based on feats.
Originally posted by operator616assuming this post-illuminati retcon (mutant/inhuman) beyonder
(which is the one shown in the picture) he is powerful but he lacks
feats, it was mentioned that he's omnipotent and omniscient but he
didn't display any feats on a universal scale (only statements about
him defying all space and time, natural order of the universe, etc..)
only planet level feats
Anyway, there is no such thing as an Inhuman/Mutant Beyonder,
so I'm very glad that dumb shit in Illuminati was cast away
as a mind screw by Beyonder, they never followed up as to why though.
But every Bio after Illuminati has Beyonder and Owen as Cube Being powers.
Also, the Spiderman mini recounting Secret Wars solidifies this.
(Beyonder's power remade All Creation, All Space-Time,
Everything/Everyone ... 3 times in one nano second)
Originally posted by operator616we even see him kneel before black bolt.............
Originally posted by operator616molecule man, in dark avengers he was
effortlessly owning everyone, killed sentry 3 times
Originally posted by operator616then sentry suddenly managed to defeat him in the end....
mind screw up? when was this stated exactly?
what does spiderman and secret wars have to do with any of this? it was a retelling of jim shooter's secret wars, thus it isn't canon, and im sure you know that so why did you bring it up?
regarding owen.....it was stated that he wanted to fail at the end of dark avengers #11 (a reference to his previous encounters, not future) while his fight with sentry came in dark avengers #12 , and nothing of the sort was mentioned.
however, i do have my doubts, as of 2005 (as stated in new avengers: most wanted files handbook) MM's state of mind has been fluctuating which directly affects his power. there's also the fact that 1 page forward after the sentry vs owen fight, it is stated that owen couldn't differentiate between what's real and what's not.
so those may have affected him, or maybe not......there is no confirmation, however.
Originally posted by operator616mind screw up? when was this stated exactly?
http://www.bookslut.com/features/2009_02_014023.php
http://www.avclub.com/articles/brian-michael-bendis,14138/
http://www.blazedent.com/editorialsinterviews/interview_4.php
http://blog.newsarama.com/category/news/interviews/Brian Bendis
I haven't the time or patience to seek out that old info, so do you.
Although,
the Fact that there's never been a handbook that acknowledges this,
and every Handbook that was published after Illuminati
has Beyonder as the same ol Cube being.
Originally posted by operator616what does spiderman and secret wars have to do with any of
this? it was a retelling of jim shooter's secret wars, thus it isn't
canon, and im sure you know that so why did you bring it up?
Also, I brought it up cause its part of my point.
so ... proof of its non-canonicity. (good luck)
Beyonder is still the same ol Beyonder that came from the Beyond Realm,
in the 2006 - 2012 Handbooks and Marvunapp likewise.
Recently On Panel, in Hickman's run, we saw 4 Alternate Beyonders,
and they were all Cube beings, with the same ol, Battleworld creation,
same ol' "anything you wish, I can give you" blah, blah ... same Beyonder.
Originally posted by operator616regarding owen.....it was stated that he wanted to fail at the
end of dark avengers #11 (a reference to his previous encounters,
not future) while his fight with sentry came in dark avengers #12 ,
and nothing of the sort was mentioned.
So,
show us where Owen was defeated "previously" before Sentry ...
Anyway, you won't be able to do that so Owen wanted to "Fail"
and he did, against Sentry, and Sentry alone.
Originally posted by operator616however, i do have my doubts, as of 2005 (as stated in new
avengers: most wanted files handbook) MM's state of mind has
been fluctuating which directly affects his power. there's also the
fact that 1 page forward after the sentry vs owen fight, it is stated
that owen couldn't differentiate between what's real and what's not.
Writer decided to use the Nuke distraction as Sentry's plot to grab Owen,
but then while Sentry holds Owen, it's still Owen who fixes
everything including re-creating the Space fleet, the country
and all the dead Heroes. So when Sentry banished Owen's form,
Owen didn't return cause he didn't want to.
This has to be a fact, cause if Sentry with limited understanding of
molecular manipulation was able to re-form 3 times,
Owen, who Sentry himself knew was better
and even asked for his help to fix everything,
most definitely had to been able to as well.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
You might as well start claiming that Team 2 would beat anyone ever out there, considering that few beings in comics have legit multiversal scale feats, and even fewer go beyond that.
Originally posted by Galan007
From Spider-Man: The Secret Wars 04...Doom tells the tale of how he forcibly beat the Beyonder, and usurped his powers:
But before claiming said powers, they took a detour and entered Spider-Man.
---
With Beyonder's powers, Spidey was able to..
a.) Physically rip Ultron in half -- quite a feat considering that version of Ultron was composed of primary Adamantium.
b.) Owns every 'villain' involved in SW, including Molecule Man and Galactus.
c.) Demonstrates time manipulation as a casual thing.How do I know Spidey was manipulating time? Because he only possessed the Beyonder's powers for one billionth of a second in real time:
-Spidey-
"In that moment, I gained the powers... I was everywhere, and everything, and everyone... In that moment, which is this moment, I remade ALL of creation":Beyonder's power then flows into Doom.
---
-Doom-
"This power I now possess reaches into the past, the future, ALL time and space":Lastly, Doom knew that his own doubts fueled by Beyonder's powers would ultimately be his undoing. But before he was conquered, he subtly altered reality:
Taking into account all of the above, Beyonder's retcon(s) are once again... Questionable. srsly
Originally posted by zopzop
Even post retcon Beyonder bringing his "A Game" could solo Team 1 :A total noob like Spiderman remade all creation using Beyonder's power.
Zopfail ftw. 👆
Originally posted by TheGodKiller[/b]
Nevermind the fact that Dr Destiny has performed similar feats with just a [b]tiny fraction of Dream's power
you actually think the sh1t performed by Spider and Wolvey in a Secret Wars retelling somehow gives Team 2 such a huge advantage that just one of them could solo a pair of multiversal Abstracts?Zopfail ftw. 👆
Originally posted by zopzop
Scans?
Originally posted by zopzop
No, Beyonder isn't even the most powerful from Team Two, MM is. I was stating that MM and Beyonder is overkill, Beyonder by himself would crush Team One.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Don't have the pertinent issues at hand, but both Dr. Destiny and the Red King have farted out entire universes using just fragments of Dream's power.
The same MM that got crushed by Sentry? And what's the point of using the Secret Wars retelling to make the Beyonder sound so uber, and then turnaround 180 degrees and claim that Owen is the real threat of the 2, when in the same Secret Wars retelling , the Beyonder-powered Spider-Man owned Owen effortlessly?
At the time Spiderman/Beyonder owned MM, he was still under his self imposed limitations. This was explained in the FF annual that featured the MM/Beyonder fight.
Originally posted by zopzop
Mmhmm. Yet Spiderman remade all creation using Beyonder's power.
Originally posted by zopzop
MM suffers from severe mental issues. MM unleashed wrecked Beyonder and their fight was trans-multiversal.At the time Spiderman/Beyonder owned MM, he was still under his self imposed limitations. This was explained in the FF annual that featured the MM/Beyonder fight.
Which pretty much means that the retelling is unusable as evidence of any sorts in a forum fight.
@Mr Master:
2011 handbook says that beyonder claims to be a nascent cosmic cube - inhuman mutant:
http://i.imgur.com/10mWGN5.jpg?1
so how is the miniseries relevant to the current beyonder?
ok, first of all you gotta focus on what im saying instead of posting these irrelevant faces.....i never said that owen lost to sentry in his previous encounters, in fact i clearly said he killed sentry 3 times.....what i meant is that he wanted to fail.....he wanted to be found (in his previous encounters despite the fact that he didn't fail) , i trust i shouldn't post that scan now should i?
@zopzop:
JLA classified #36:
batman says that materioptikon (dreamstone) created multiple realities:
http://i.imgur.com/4yFm2qe.jpg
earlier in the issue it's stated that there are infinite possibilities (infinite possible universes)
http://i.imgur.com/YT97H6d.jpg
sandman #7, though it is part of dream's power........
http://i.imgur.com/2JAKc1p.jpg
......it's not a tiny fraction since later in the issue it was revealed it contained most of his power.
anyway, are we also going to ignore MM's low showings for instance? like in fantastic four #373:
http://i.imgur.com/rHPKWyE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/hBEx3nY.jpg
there are other showings like this ^ let me know if you want them.
this isn't a stomp at all.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
The difference being that Red King and Dr. Destiny have performed similar feats using fractions of Dream's power.
He wasn't really playing around when the Sentry finally got a hold of him.Which pretty much means that the retelling is unusable as evidence of any sorts in a forum fight.
The post retcon MM/Beyonder fight was incredible and the writer made it clear by on panel showings AND the TVA that the damage was greater than multiversal in scope.
The insane thing is, even his FEATS during Secret Wars I/II were never retconed. That means Beyonder really did wreck MULTIVERSAL wide damage with nothing more than a temper tantrum and MM RESTORED all that damage with nothing more than a raised finger, MM gathered all the free energy in the MULTIVERSE to enforce a dome of his, etc...
Likewise Beyonder really did KILL DEATH and later restored her, proving that he can indeed take out a concept (so Dream and Destiny are phucked). This amazingly wasn't retconned either (since it's mentioned even in their handbook entries) and this was cemented as fact when it made a cameo in the Dimension of Manifestations in a Quasar issue (the Mighty of the Multiverse begging Beyonder not to kill Death).
So if Beyonder is that powerful, how much MORE powerful is an unleashed MM? There's no way Team Two loses.
@operator616
The low showings are because of MM's self imposed mental blocks. It's all explained on panel.
