Morpheus & Destiny Vs Molecule Man & Beyonder

Originally posted by zopzop
It has nothing to do with "playing around". MM has self imposed mental issues that limit his power. At first I was even harassing Mr. M about post retcon MM's showings, but on panel evidence says I was wrong. During his entire history, the only limit to his power was himself (stated and shown on panel). Once those self imposed limitations are shattered, all bets are off.

The post retcon MM/Beyonder fight was incredible and the writer made it clear by on panel showings AND the TVA that the damage was greater than multiversal in scope.

The insane thing is, even his FEATS during Secret Wars I/II were never retconed. That means Beyonder really did wreck MULTIVERSAL wide damage with nothing more than a temper tantrum and MM RESTORED all that damage with nothing more than a raised finger, MM gathered all the free energy in the MULTIVERSE to enforce a dome of his, etc...

Likewise Beyonder really did KILL DEATH and later restored her, proving that he can indeed take out a concept (so Dream and Destiny are phucked). This amazingly wasn't retconned either (since it's mentioned even in their handbook entries) and this was cemented as fact when it made a cameo in the Dimension of Manifestations in a Quasar issue (the Mighty of the Multiverse begging Beyonder not to kill Death).

So if Beyonder is that powerful, how much MORE powerful is an unleashed MM? There's no way Team Two loses.

Yes, and somehow that fight alone should be used as the sole parameter for gauging how these characters would stomp anyone in a forum fight, because honestly speaking, how many characters even have multiversal scale feats, let alone beyond that?

If the Beyonder is indeed a legit trans-multiversal powerhouse in the world of zoplogic, what do you think that makes the Great Powers of the universe, who were said to be even greater?

Yeah, killing a concept like Death who's not without her fair share of low showings suddenly means that the Beyonder can easily phuck up the Endless who don't even operate in the same manner in DC as Death does in Marvel.

Powerful enough to get punked by an unleashed Sentry. Somehow that equates to either of them soloing Team 1 all on their lonesome.

Originally posted by operator616
@Mr Master:

2011 handbook says that beyonder claims to be a nascent cosmic cube - inhuman mutant:
http://i.imgur.com/10mWGN5.jpg?1
so how is the miniseries relevant to the current beyonder?

That silly exceprt clearly tells you that he "claims" either.

Anyway, this Handbook (4 years after Illuminati) fact isn't a claim, it states info directly:

[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16285385_Cube_beings_Bio1.jpg]

(my other handbook examples are not cropped,
but I'll return with 4 more separate Handbooks)

That aside though, On Panel >>> handbooks,
and while you're tiny excerpt is ambiguous,
this below On Panel depiction is not.

... hey, wudda ya know, ... the Illuminati and Beyonder!

So, speaking of the Illuminati, there are the Illuminati from 3 separate UniverseS,
dealing with Alternate Beyonders who all share the same basic old-school Beyonder history,
"from beyond" ... "sentient Cubes" .. blah, blah.

Not a even a hint or peep about any Inhuman-Mutant comedy.

Originally posted by operator616

ok, first of all you gotta focus on what im saying instead of posting these irrelevant
faces.....i never said that owen lost to sentry in his previous encounters, in fact i
clearly said he killed sentry 3 times.....what i meant is that he wanted to fail.....he
wanted to be found (in his previous encounters despite the fact that he didn't fail) , i
trust i shouldn't post that scan now should i?

I said Owen wanted to lose to Sentry.
You said, Owen said that regarding "previous encounters" which is incorrect.
I then asked, where did Owen lose, before losing to Sentry?
That's it.

Anyway, when Owen said this: (second to last page of #11)

There is no doubt, the dialogue context points to the Future, Not the Past.

"You want to be found" ... "You're begging to be found here"

Next issue, aside from still mind screwing Osborn he didn't hurt another soul,
aside from exploding Sentry one last time before losing to him.

Yea, this is pretty cut and dry here.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Except he really didn't appear to be suffering from the jimmies when Sentry owned him like a weak feeb.

Yes, and somehow that fight alone should be used as the sole parameter for gauging how these characters would stomp anyone in a forum fight, because honestly speaking, how many characters even have multiversal scale feats, let alone beyond that?

If the Beyonder is indeed a legit trans-multiversal powerhouse in the world of zoplogic, what do you think that makes the Great Powers of the universe, who were said to be even greater?

Yeah, killing a concept like Death who's not without her fair share of low showings suddenly means that the Beyonder can easily phuck up the Endless who don't even operate in the same manner in DC as Death does in Marvel.

Powerful enough to get punked by an unleashed Sentry. Somehow that equates to either of them soloing Team 1 all on their lonesome.

So, ... on top of being mentally unstable!

... and on top of literally wanting to lose during the Sentry comedy ...

... Owen also de-powered himself at the end of the Post-Beyonder fight:

yawn

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Team 1 wins.

@zopzop: the point wasn't that he was controlled by the puppet master......aron put him in a void with no molecules.....with a gesture......do you seriously believe that's beyond dream's ability?

MM was also imprisoned at the raft, 2005 handbook

http://i.imgur.com/JcgulIE.jpg?1

we all see this in new avengers (in case you don't have it feel free to ask for scans)

@Mr Master:

.....how exactly doesn't it prove anything? it's stated right there in the handbook, though im not going to disregard your evidence either, and i do acknowledge it, im undecided as of now.......if you could find me the part of your 4 interviews that you linked me to (currently i don't have the time to go through them all), that suggests it was a mind screw, then ill be fully convinced.

except you missed the statement that says "you killed all those people" - past tense - which comes right after the "you want to fail" statement. so it's referring to his previous encounters.

and i already said that i do have my doubts about this, but it was never shown that he wanted to lose in his fight with sentry......but i guess we'll have to agree to disagree.....because you never change your mind.

Originally posted by operator616
@zopzop: the point wasn't that he was controlled by the puppet master......aron put him in a void with no molecules.....with a gesture......do you seriously believe that's beyond dream's ability?

Originally posted by zopzop

Except he probably did. He was having a little mental breakdown and talking to imaginary demons/characters before the Avengers showed up.

It wasn't that one time. Don't you see? I gave you examples of their Secret War I/II stuff that wasn't retconned and was multiversal in scope.

A) The great powers of the universe were BEGGING Beyonder not to kill Death. This was never retconned! Not only is it mentioned in their Handbook entries, it's CONFIRMED on panel in an issue of Quasar :

Why couldn't the "Great Powers" stop him?
B) Regarding Death, everyone has low showings so bringing that up is meaningless. DC's GOD has freaking low showings.
C) When Beyonder killed 616 Death it affected things throughout the MULTIVERSE :

616 Death is multiversal otherwise why would her destruction affect the entire MULTIVERSE? And if he can destroy her, none of the Endless are safe because of their "multiversal" status.

Yeah, MM's self imposed mental blocks weaken him greatly that's no secret. MM unleashed AND Beyonder on the same side vs Team Endless is spite against the Endless. [/B]

You did nothing of the sort. That feat is well beyond what most Abstract-level characters in comics have ever achieved.

The Great Powers of the Universe were eventually revealed to be his superiors. All canon.

Death's low showings are the worst, which is my point all along. Loki was able to trap her and make everyone immortal.

Are you really that retarded? Because Beyonder kills Death in the original Shooter era and this affects the multiverse, somehow that means that the modern day 616-Death is also multiversal. Truly one of the most horridly constructed arguments I've had the displeasure of reading.

Nope, there is no proof to suggest that he was operating under self-imposed inhibitions when Sentry overpowered him. You need to bring solid proof to the table, not just go off assumptions and probabilities.

edit

sorry for the double post, got mixed up, anyway:

Originally posted by zopzop
Operator, my friend, repeat after me, SELF IMPOSED MENTAL BLOCKS. Mr. Master beat me to it and already posted the scan.

except you're missing one huge detail, the scan Mr Master provided is from fantastic four annual #27 (1994) while the scans i posted are from fantastic four #373 (1993) so what he posted is completely irrelevant.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I go by proof while you go by probabilities.

You did nothing of the sort. That feat is well beyond what most Abstract-level characters in comics have ever achieved.

The Great Powers of the Universe were eventually revealed to be his superiors. All canon.

Death's low showings are the worst, which is my point all along. Loki was able to trap her and make everyone immortal.

Are you really that retarded? Because Beyonder kills Death in the original Shooter era and this affects the multiverse, somehow that means that the modern day 616-Death is also multiversal. Truly one of the most horridly constructed arguments I've had the displeasure of reading.

Nope, there is no proof to suggest that he was operating under self-imposed inhibitions when Sentry overpowered him. You need to bring solid proof to the table, not just go off assumptions and probabilities.

@ operator616
Operator, read the issues he appeared in PRIOR to that FF issue you mentioned. He had imposed mental blocks on himself again. As soon as he regained the portion of his power he hid in Marsha, he thought he couldn't affect organic molecules and stuff.

im assuming you're referring to this? in which case he says that he's back to his OLD limitations, though he did say that space-time warping portion was gone

http://i.imgur.com/pDUTh6f.jpg?1

which is funny considering that at the end of fantastic four annual #27 when he converted back to his proper self he mentioned that bending laws of nature at a whim is easy stuff for him:

http://i.imgur.com/zrIhiEl.jpg

Originally posted by operator616

the point wasn't that he was controlled by the puppet
master......aron put him in a void with no molecules.....with a
gesture......

Next.

Originally posted by operator616

.....how exactly doesn't it prove anything? it's stated right there
in the handbook, though im not going to disregard your evidence
either, and i do acknowledge it, im undecided as of now.......if you
could find me the part of your 4 interviews that you linked me to
(currently i don't have the time to go through them all), that
suggests it was a mind screw, then ill be fully convinced.

Originally posted by operator616

except you missed the statement that says "you killed all those
people" - past tense - which comes right after the "you want to fail"
statement. so it's referring to his previous encounters.

I also can't believe you're serious so I'll laugh with you cause you
almost had me going there.

But lest the innocent onlookers get confused:

Owen WANTED to lose ... "You want to fail"

Owen WANTED to be found ... "You're begging to be found"

How the would anyone see this as a reference to "previous encounters?"

When "previously" he Never "failed" at anything, and lost to no one! 007-thefuk

Owen LOST or verbatim: "Failed" ... After he made the statement Next issue to Sentry.

Originally posted by operator616

and i already said that i do have my doubts about this, but it was never shown
that he wanted to lose in his fight with sentry......but i guess we'll have to agree to
disagree.....because you never change your mind.

Originally posted by operator616

except you're missing one huge detail, the scan Mr Master provided is
from fantastic four annual #27 (1994) while the scans i posted are
from fantastic four #373 (1993) so what he posted is completely
irrelevant.

if you are of the opinion that owen was holding back and/or wanted to lose his battle with sentry, because of the statements made in this scene:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16286436/img820.jpg.html
...then i respectfully disagree. that information was being fed to owen by lifeforms he created(which mimicked his split personalities.) owen's self-proclaimed "friends" had a nasty habit of trying to mindf*ck him almost every time they appeared on panel together. i wouldn't trust their comments at all-- especially when owen himself doubted their boasts in that very same scene.

here is another example of owen flat-out ignoring/disagreeing with his 'friends':
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16286559/Dark_Avengers_12_006.jpg.html
clearly owen's 'normal' psyche is the most dominate/reliable one he's got.

aside from that, owen was immensely enraged when he battled sentry, and certainly didn't allude to the notion that he purposefully threw the fight. here's the entire battle from start to finish:
[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16279166_Dark_Avengers_12_010.jpg]
[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16279167_Dark_Avengers_12_011-12.jpg]
[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16279168_Dark_Avengers_12_013.jpg]
[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16279169_Dark_Avengers_12_014.jpg]
[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16279170_Dark_Avengers_12_015.jpg]
[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16279171_Dark_Avengers_12_016.jpg]
[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16279172_Dark_Avengers_12_017.jpg]
owen appears to be in 'berserker rage mode' and not holding back[scans 3-5.] sentry then proceeds to overpower owen with molecular manipulation of his own(a feat which shocks owen), before atomically dispersing him[scans 5-7.]

however, owen's loss *may* have had something to do with sentry's molecules(and by proxy, powers) in general. after all, they were much different/stranger than anything owen had ever come across:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16286544/img811.jpg.html
...which is quite amazing given the plethora of [cosmic] entities that owen has encountered over the years(beyonder, LT, eternity, uatu, and kubik to name a few.)

either way, that is still not a low showing for owen by any stretch of the imagination. sentry was just that powerful during siege-- he literally defined a haxxed-out/dues-ex-machina character.

just my 2 cents. 🙂

Wait, so now Owen purposefully lost his fight to Sentry? Lol. I thought it was pretty clear that Voided out Bob was just flat out more powerful but less experienced.

T1

If anyone is interested, Sandman Overture will reveal why Morpheus was captured so easily all those years ago.

oDdfYZkN_tI#at=116

Originally posted by Galan007

if you are of the opinion that owen was holding back and/or
wanted to lose his battle with sentry, because of the statements
made in this scene:
...then i respectfully disagree . that information was being fed to
owen by lifeforms he created(which mimicked his split
personalities.) owen's self-proclaimed "friends" had a nasty habit of
trying to mindf*ck him almost every time they appeared on panel
together. i wouldn't trust their comments at all-- especially when
owen himself doubted their boasts in that very same scene.
here is another example of owen flat-out ignoring/disagreeing with his 'friends':
clearly owen's 'normal' psyche is the most dominate/reliable one he's got.
aside from that, owen was immensely enraged when he battled
sentry, and certainly didn't allude to the notion that he purposefully
threw the fight. here's the entire battle from start to finish
owen appears to be in 'berserker rage mode' and not holding
back[scans 3-5.] sentry then proceeds to overpower owen with
molecular manipulation of his own(a feat which shocks owen),
before atomically dispersing him[scans 5-7.]
just my 2 cents.

The other scan of "another example" doesn't add anything imo.
Owen's Dormy creation told him: "take the world, it's yours to have"
and Owen replied: "I don't want the world, I want here" ...
means nothing to me.

Anyway ...
Owen wanted to lose sub-consciously, since his friends were aspects of such.
So, it's no surprise "consciously" he would not enjoy that when he actually lost.

Actually, I prefer to say,
Owen eased the win for Sentry, rather than outright handing it to him.

Originally posted by Galan007

however, owen's loss *may* have had something to do with
sentry's molecules(and by proxy, powers) in general. after all, they
were much different/stranger than anything owen had ever come across:
...which is quite amazing given the plethora of [cosmic] entities that
owen has encountered over the years(beyonder, LT, eternity, uatu,
and kubik to name a few.)

Originally posted by Galan007

either way, that is still not a low showing for owen by any stretch of
the imagination. sentry was just that powerful during siege--
he literally defined a haxxed-out/dues-ex-machina character.

Then, the same looking orange energy has a lasting affect 3 pages later. lol
It seems to me, sub-consciously Owen had enough, and it was time to go away,
and Sentry was the only one powerful enough he could count on for the job.

Just my two, or more cents. 🙂

Originally posted by Mr Master
It seems to me, sub-consciously Owen had enough, and it was time to go away,
and Sentry was the only one powerful enough he could count on for the job.

Just my two, or more cents. 🙂

Originally posted by zopzop

Believe it or not, this has happened before (ie MM being utterly
destroyed) but when he wanted to, he recreated a body for himself
and came back to life. This was when he was a relative noob too and
he thought he needed his "wand" for his powers.

Yet, he's too powerful so he needs a "plot" like every other uber cat out there.

Jaspers (Fury) Edifice (stupidity) Thanos/acquisitions (sense of unworthiness)
Hunger (dimensional travel) Jamie (simple mind) Abraxas (UN) etc.

I get it, so I understand why this is necessary.
It's the only way to stop these and others, and the good guy always wins,
in the true end.