CW Mace Windu & CW Obi Wan Kenobi Vs Darth Maul & Savage Opress

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Fight 2=If anything Maul won this.

Except, you know, the creator of the show said he lost. And I'm sorry to say it, but Filoni's opinion carries way more weight than yours.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Its kind of hard to you know move around in a giant cave without hitting each other. That was a CLEAR advantage towards Kenobi.

Once again, in real life facing multiple opponents in an enclosed space is disadvantageous for the outnumbered as they can not maneuver.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
And I could [B]easily make the case for Maul that he was as just out of shape as Kenobi. [/B]

Neither were operating at peak efficiency. We already know that. So using the fight as a way to gauge their powers is, well, flawed.

Originally posted by ares834
Except, you know, the creator of the show said he lost. And I'm sorry to say it, but Filoni's opinion carries way more weight than yours.

Well he's not the creator of the show. That's still George Lucas. But he implements pretty much everything George wants, and talks to him about what he wants to show on like a daily basis. So his words are the next best thing to Lucas's when it comes to TCW.

Still Maul never actually went down to Kenobi in combat. And Filoni never stated that if Maul stayed and carried on Kenobi would have beaten him (although he probably would have since the pirates might have interjected anytime).

That's the other problem, it wasn't a one on one. Maul fled because Opress was wounded, the pirates situation was unstable, and yes this is all on top of the fact that Kenobi was just not going down in this particular fight.

Originally posted by ares834
Once again, in real life facing multiple opponents in an enclosed space is disadvantageous for the outnumbered as they can not maneuver.

But Kenobi clearly could maneuver, as we saw with all the sumersaults and flips. The brothers larger frames probably gave them a maneuvarbility disadvantage in that situation.

Of course being outnumbered was still the greater disadvantage.

Originally posted by ares834
Neither were operating at peak efficiency. We already know that. So using the fight as a way to gauge their powers is, well, flawed.

Of course in real life 2 combatants being below 100% is a really good way to test their true abilities in combat.

In an IGN interview Filoni confirmed that it was Maul who did really well in that fight to fight off and even beat Kenobi.

Also in Revival it seems it was Maul who wasn't in the right mindset this time (No, not yet, I'm not ready).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But Kenobi clearly could maneuver, as we saw with all the sumersaults and flips. The brothers larger frames probably gave them a maneuvarbility disadvantage in that situation.

Not really the type of maneuverability I was talking about. Basically, when Kenobi gets surrounded it is very difficult to escape that situation. By contrast, in an open space it's far easier to be surrounded or cornered.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course in real life 2 combatants being below 100% is a really good way to test their true abilities in combat.

Sure. To test, not to gauge. Basically, we don't know at what "percentage" so to speak they were operating at.

But Kenobi clearly could maneuver, as we saw with all the sumersaults and flips. The brothers larger frames probably gave them a maneuvarbility disadvantage in that situation.

Ceiling was more than twice higher human height. When Kenobi tried to chop Opress' legs, he made a high jump with no problem. Accrobatics of Maul never required more space than that cave provided. Neither brother is Ataru practitioner to require a lot of space for maneuverability in general. In book brothers were on each others way, however, in cartoon they freely surrounded Kenobi right at the beginning. And brothers were at most one head taller, not a significant difference to give Kenobi any advantage in confined space, which it wasn't anyway.

Originally posted by ares834
Not really the type of maneuverability I was talking about. Basically, when Kenobi gets surrounded it is very difficult to escape that situation. By contrast, in an open space it's far easier to be surrounded or cornered.

Yeah there was no escape for him that's for sure. He had to face them head on.

Originally posted by Arhael
Ceiling was more than twice higher human height. When Kenobi tried to chop Opress' legs, he made a high jump with no problem. Accrobatics of Maul never required more space than that cave provided. Neither brother is Ataru practitioner to require a lot of space for maneuverability in general. In book brothers were on each others way, however, in cartoon they freely surrounded Kenobi right at the beginning. And brothers were at most one head taller, not a significant difference to give Kenobi any advantage in confined space, which it wasn't anyway.

It's not just height, it's their overall size. I'd say it probably benefitted Opress tbh since he likes to dominate opponents close up with his incredible strength.

But acrobatics are Maul's signature really. Has been since TPM. He was doing more acrobatics in that movie than both the Ataro users he was facing. He also began using them in the episode Revenge which is when he started gaining the upper hand.

Whilst in the Revival episode we see Kenobi doing all his most amazing maneuvers but we see nothing of the sort from Maul. So either it was due to the cramped space like the novel suggests, or he just wasn't on form that day.

That's like saying Grievous was almost always off form because he only rarely got to use his incredible acrobatics or agility like in his first appearance.

Except, you know, the creator of the show said he lost. And I'm sorry to say it, but Filoni's opinion carries way more weight than yours

But buddy, Kenobi ended the fight with his face in the ground. It could be called a technical victory but then again by that logic Vader Vs Sidious would be technical victory.

So no.

Once again, in real life facing multiple opponents in an enclosed space is disadvantageous for the outnumbered as they can not maneuver.

Yes, but it was a circumstantial showing. Which is why it cant be used.

Do we really need to bring up all the other circumstantial showings showen buddy!?.

Neither were operating at peak efficiency. We already know that. So using the fight as a way to gauge their powers is, well, flawed.

They were both, equally disadvantaged buddy.

Obi-Wan's not beating these two.

Oakley Sunglasses

Team 1. Mace beats Maul, Kenobi beats Savage, and they live happily ever after.

Originally posted by Vensai
That's like saying Grievous was almost always off form because he only rarely got to use his incredible acrobatics or agility like in his first appearance.

Well no because it's not the norm for Greivous. And there was the environmental factor to consider. Maul, Kenobi and Opress all in an enclosed space. Maul and Opress both being these huge beasts at the time.

But the main thing, Kenobi for once was doing all those acrobatics and maneuvering. Whilst Maul whose signature it is was not. And the novel confirms the enclosed space was a disadvantage to him.

Just in the previous episode Maul starting winning the fight against Kenobi when he began with his acrobatics.

Mace beats Maul with Mid Diff and Kenobi takes down Savage. So yeah Team 1.

Why do people keep acting like maul holds more victories over kenobi when kenobi holds THE.. literally THE decisive victory and cut maul down to the size of a midget. It's literally laughable to even argue Maul holds any overall superiority over kenobi in their battles

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well no because it's not the norm for Greivous. And there was the environmental factor to consider. Maul, Kenobi and Opress all in an enclosed space. Maul and Opress both being these huge beasts at the time.

But the main thing, Kenobi for once was doing all those acrobatics and maneuvering. Whilst Maul whose signature it is was not. And the novel confirms the enclosed space was a disadvantage to him.

Just in the previous episode Maul starting winning the fight against Kenobi when he began with his acrobatics.

So since Grievous' acrobatics aren't the norm, we should just assume he never uses acrobatics at all in his duels then even if he used them in his first appearances?

Originally posted by Vensai
Not saying your wrong since it's a good point. But if we're thinking of the same novel, the disadvantage was because Savage got in Maul's way (and the space was so small that their sabers were getting in the way of the walls too) which didn't happen in the episode. The brothers intelligently tried to box in Kenobi by taking both sides.

Fair point if you want to say the novel is just wrong. All I'm saying is Kenobi seemed to be maneuvering at his very best. Maul wasn't. Perhaps that was due to the Maul's size at the time in that closed off space. Or perhaps that was just Maul going for a different tactic in that fight, attempting to close off Kenobi and overpower him with more strength than skill.

Either way it just seems to me Kenobi was fighting at his best, but Maul was not.

Originally posted by Vensai
And Maul won the fight with Kenobi because he brought up Quigon's death and made his fight aggressively, giving Maul an opening.

Getting into their heads is just a normal combat tactic. Kenobi also mocks Maul before their one on one in Revival.

But if you watch the Revenge fight, Maul actually starting gaining the edge when he began resorting to his signature kicks and cartwheel/flips.

Originally posted by Vensai
So since Grievous' acrobatics aren't the norm, we should just assume he never uses acrobatics at all in his duels then even if he used them in his first appearances?

That's hardly what I'm saying. I'm saying since it was a one off it's not really that relevant to his average day combat skills.

Especially when that one off was in a cartoon which has been stated to have it's action exaggerated.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Why do people keep acting like maul holds more victories over kenobi when kenobi holds THE.. literally THE decisive victory and cut maul down to the size of a midget. It's literally laughable to even argue Maul holds any overall superiority over kenobi in their battles

Stop being silly KT. The one fight he cut Maul was with Qui-Gon's help for the majority of the fight. Heck the last move was even with Qui-Gon's Saber.

So it wasn't a one on one fight at all that Kenobi simply just outfought Maul in. He clearly would have had zero chance on his own.

Not to mention it was complete surprise attack after Maul had already put him down in combat.

A sarcastic comment is not a fraction as effective as what Maul did.
And Maul had little issue fighting against Kenobi in a confined space during Revenge. There, their lightsabers actually were touching the walls.

Originally posted by Vensai
A sarcastic comment is not a fraction as effective as what Maul did.

Would not be difficult for Kenobi to frustrate Maul. And in the "Revenge" duel Maul was already getting his licks in on Kenobi just before his use of Dun Moch started. Besides I don't see that as a good excuse for Kenobi to lose that one.

Originally posted by Vensai
And Maul had little issue fighting against Kenobi in a confined space during Revenge. There, their lightsabers actually were touching the walls.

Doesn't change the fact that Kenobi could not beat Maul in a lengthy one on one duel in the same episode. Heck even in Kenobi's 2 on 1 victory, he never actually injured Maul or even put him down. Maul on the other hand put Kenobi in his ass twice in the fight that's called Kenobi's victory.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

It's not just height, it's their overall size. I'd say it probably benefitted Opress tbh since he likes to dominate opponents close up with his incredible strength.

But acrobatics are Maul's signature really. Has been since TPM. He was doing more acrobatics in that movie than both the Ataro users he was facing. He also began using them in the episode Revenge which is when he started gaining the upper hand.

Whilst in the Revival episode we see Kenobi doing all his most amazing maneuvers but we see nothing of the sort from Maul. So either it was due to the cramped space like the novel suggests, or he just wasn't on form that day.

So you going to use book's interpretation despite the fact that it contradicts cartoon in every way? In book Kenobi attacked them, so they got caught off guard. In video on opposite they attack. In book their lightsabers were slashing against walls. In video never happened as there was plenty of space.

In book Opress lost his hand because brothers were getting onto each other's way. In video they surrounded Kenobi right at the beginning and Opress lost his hand under completely different circumstances.

Kenobi had enough space even with acrobatics. So Maul and Opress who don't employ acrobatics were fine too.

Nice to see you around Arhael. Try to visit more often 🙂

Originally posted by Arhael
Are you saying Maul couldn't fight like he normally does? I suggest you rewatch at least TPM fight. He never employs acrobatics into his attacks. Watch how he fought Qui-Gon and Sidious. Maul rarely does fancy moves. He seemply walks onto opponent trying to overwhelm. And on rare occasions he can jump away for defensive purposes. His kicks do not require larger space than that cave either.

His very opening move on Qui-Gon was a flip over him while he attacked. He did that again in that first fight towards the end.

In TPM end fight he does a couple of those non-hand cartwheels mid-fight to maneuver as well as the constant kicks. He does a backflip to back off from the duo. He flips himself up when Kenobi kcicks him on the floor. He does an acrobatic high kick to Kenobi's face in the final fight. He does one of those non-hand cartwheels in Revenge just as he begins kicking Kenobi. I also seem to remember a flip when he fought Sidious.

However the Revival fight was the first time I've seen Kenobi being the one to use heavy usage of kicks and acrobatics.

Originally posted by Arhael
Are So you going to use book's interpretation despite the fact that it contradicts cartoon in every way? In book Kenobi attacked them, so they got caught off guard. In video on opposite they attack. In book their lightsabers were slashing against walls. In video never happened as there was plenty of space.

In book Opress lost his hand because brothers were getting onto each other's way. In video they surrounded Kenobi right at the beginning and Opress lost his hand under completely different circumstances.

Oh no, I'm not going to use the book as bible when it comes to clear contradictions. But anything from the book that can support what we saw is fair game.

Like the book says Kenobi's change of style shocked the Brothers. Why can't that be true? He completely switched from his usual single saber defensive to dual saber offensive.

As for being in each others way, clearly they were not tripping over each other, but watching out for the other could have restricted their movements in that environment. For instance being on either side of Kenobi, they would both need to be careful of Force Pushing and Kicking Kenobi right into the other Brother.

Originally posted by Arhael
Kenobi had enough space even with acrobatics. So Maul and Opress who don't employ acrobatics were fine too.

Maul definitely has employed acrobatics in fights more than most. Opress obviously does not.

And don't get me wrong, I completely agree Kenobi outperformed both brothers in that fight.

But I'm just not letting that one fight convince me Kenobi >> Maul. Just like I never believed Ventress >> Kenobi because of the fight in Nightsisters.

I just think everyone has peak days and every fight is different. Which is certainly what Filoni seemed to be getting at in his commentary on the Kenobi vs Maul and Opress.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Maul definitely has employed acrobatics in fights more than most. Opress obviously does not.

Kenobi's proficient in Ataru.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Kenobi's proficient in Ataru.

He's more than proficient. He showed us what he can do while on the offensive in Revival, and it definitely seemed high level mastery to me.

I'm just suggesting that fight probably didn't show us all Maul is capable of.