Originally posted by Master Han
So Neph, I want clarification on the extent of your Vitiate fetish. You've stated before that he could defeat RotS Sidious. Is Luke his limit?
Hmmm, IDK. He's shown that people like UnuThul and Lord Nyax can give him extreme difficulty in terms of telepathy, so Vitiate does have a chance of overwhelming his mind if he can get the attack off which I personally think he probably can. His Lightning is also a serious cause for concern given my personal belief in it being the strongest application in history. Luke's power is immense though so he has a good chance of fending it off. Ultimately I think it would be down to if Luke can power through Vitiates attacks and get within striking distance.
Bare in mind, even Tempest has said that Vitiate is likely the second most powerful Sith. Either way, I agree with him that it would be a difficult fight.
Also iirc I said that Vitiate CAN defeat Sidious.... in a Force duel. I was decidedly pessimistic of his chances given Sidious' speed and lightsaber prowess.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
ROTS Sidious would wipe the floor with the Sith Emperor.
I don't see Vitiate taking Luke or Sidious without a nexus and/or prep. And if its a dark side nexus, Vitiate won't be taking Sidious either way.
Don't know if Sidious will be buffing the floor with his ass, but he will win.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I don't see Vitiate taking Luke or Sidious without a nexus and/or prep. And if its a dark side nexus, Vitiate won't be taking Sidious either way.Don't know if Sidious will be buffing the floor with his ass, but he will win.
The way how I see it, Vitiate's advantage against Sidious Force Wise is there, albeit minimal. However, Sidious' saber skills are far superior to Vitiate. I see no reason Sidious wouldn't buff the floor with his bifercated corpse.
Sith Emperor have more then enough credentials to beat Luke.
Some people have come to harbor invincibility myth about Luke even though their are numerous examples of him struggling against foes against which he shouldn't, as per the hype. This is what lot of PIS (involved in the lore) does to a character; the character turns in to a (unjustifiable) mary sue.
By the way, Luke's greatest victories are circumstantial;
- Abeloth
- Sidious
Losses;
- Exar Kun
- Lumiya (once)
- Nyax
Their is more to his history but I think the above track record isn't phenomenal by any means.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sith Emperor have more then enough credentials to beat Luke.Some people have come to harbor invincibility myth about Luke even though their are numerous examples of him struggling against foes against which he shouldn't, as per the hype. This is what lot of PIS (involved in the lore) does to a character; the character turns in to a (unjustifiable) mary sue.
By the way, Luke's greatest victories are circumstantial;
- Abeloth
- SidiousLosses;
- Exar Kun
- Lumiya (once)
- NyaxTheir is more to his history but I think the above track record isn't phenomenal by any means.
The contradiction in this thread is staggering; you dismiss all of Luke's "greatest" victories to be circumstantial, even though two out of three of his "losses" are...also circumstantial. 😉
Luke has consistently demonstrated the ability to defeat enemies far more powerful than himself, such as his kicking the shit out of Abeloth's bodies on multiple occasions, or defeating UnuThul. So even ignoring the fact that he is already more powerful than Vitiate in the Force, even if he weren't, his prodigious swordsmanship and tactical competence still give him the edge here. Once Luke gets up close, Vitiate is dead.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Hmmm, IDK. He's shown that people like UnuThul and Lord Nyax can give him extreme difficulty in terms of telepathy, so Vitiate does have a chance of overwhelming his mind if he can get the attack off which I personally think he probably can.
Lord Nyax and UnuThul are far, far more powerful than Vitiate, though...
His Lightning is also a serious cause for concern given my personal belief in it being the strongest application in history. Luke's power is immense though so he has a good chance of fending it off. Ultimately I think it would be down to if Luke can power through Vitiates attacks and get within striking distance.
Given that Revan could resist all but his charged lightning...while on a dark side nexus...
Bare in mind, even Tempest has said that Vitiate is likely the second most powerful Sith. Either way, I agree with him that it would be a difficult fight.
I'd put him third, behind Palpatine and Plagueis.
Also iirc I said that Vitiate CAN defeat Sidious.... in a Force duel. I was decidedly pessimistic of his chances given Sidious' speed and lightsaber prowess.
No, you said this, and then took it back, before repeating your statement again, then taking it back, and this is after you had argued in Vitiate's favor, and Palpatine's favor, in DE Sidious vs. Vitiate.
Originally posted by Master Han
Lord Nyax and UnuThul are far, far more powerful than Vitiate, though...
Lolwut? Seriously?
Originally posted by Master Han
Given that Revan could resist all but his charged lightning...while on a dark side nexus...
That was 300 years before his prime, a quarter of his life. And in that time he gained Revan's power and Sel-Makor's gift.
Also I don't really remember Luke demonstrating much in terms of Tutaminis. Revan has. Not saying Revans better, but I wouldn't say Luke far outstrips him without proof.
Originally posted by Master Han
I'd put him third, behind Palpatine and Plagueis.
Its a tough fight regardless.
Originally posted by Master Han
No, you said this, and then took it back, before repeating your statement again, then taking it back, and this is after you had argued in Vitiate's favor, and Palpatine's favor, in DE Sidious vs. Vitiate.
I doubt thats accurate.
Its a tricky subject. I guess it depends on whether I think Vitiate can force a Force duel or if I weigh Palpatines lightsaber prowess higher at the time. The fact is, **** you I can change my opinion whenever I want. Opinions are fluid sometimes and subject to whims.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Lolwut? Seriously?
UnuThul can bend turbolaser bolts. He's pretty hardcore.
That was 300 years before his prime, a quarter of his life. And in that time he gained Revan's power and Sel-Makor's gift.
Oh yeah? Well, Luke's feats in NJO are 20 years before LotF...a third of his life.
Also I don't really remember Luke demonstrating much in terms of Tutaminis. Revan has. Not saying Revans better, but I wouldn't say Luke far outstrips him without proof.
Well, since Luke already deflects the Emperor's lightning for a millisecond in RotJ, and given his propensity to learning everything in ridiculously short timespans...I wouldn't be surprised.
But, Luke would just use his lightsaber...
Its a tough fight regardless.
Not really. Luke can create a distraction with a saber throw, emerald lightning, or flying debris, and then charge in to cut the Emperor's head off when he's distracted. It's obvious that Vitiate's so used to being the top dog, he has little experience in actual "combat".
I doubt thats accurate.
Your doubts are irrelevant.
Its a tricky subject. I guess it depends on whether I think Vitiate can force a Force duel or if I weigh Palpatines lightsaber prowess higher at the time. The fact is, **** you I can change my opinion whenever I want. Opinions are fluid sometimes and subject to whims.
Yeah, but in a debate, people aren't going to let you off the hook when you suddenly shift your argument mid-orgasm.
Originally posted by Master Han
UnuThul can bend turbolaser bolts. He's pretty hardcore.
That doesn't make him far above Vitiate.
Originally posted by Master Han
Oh yeah? Well, Luke's feats in NJO are 20 years before LotF...a third of his life.
And?
Originally posted by Master Han
Well, since Luke already deflects the Emperor's lightning for a millisecond in RotJ, and given his propensity to learning everything in ridiculously short timespans...I wouldn't be surprised.But, Luke would just use his lightsaber...
I'd still need actual proof that his ability with it is in excess of Revans to the point where he could handle Vitiates lightning.
So did the Strike Team Vitiate easily overpowered. Lightsabers can be overwhelmed.
Originally posted by Master Han
Not really. Luke can create a distraction with a saber throw, emerald lightning, or flying debris, and then charge in to cut the Emperor's head off when he's distracted. It's obvious that Vitiate's so used to being the top dog, he has little experience in actual "combat".
Yeah, it'll be that easy. 🙄
Originally posted by Master Han
Yeah, but in a debate, people aren't going to let you off the hook when you suddenly shift your argument mid-orgasm.
Boo hoo.
Originally posted by Nephthys
That doesn't make him far above Vitiate.
...it sort of does.
And?
And? You don't see the blatant double standard in pulling off the same trick with Nyax vs. Luke?
I'd still need actual proof that his ability with it is in excess of Revans to the point where he could handle Vitiates lightning.So did the Strike Team Vitiate easily overpowered. Lightsabers can be overwhelmed.
I could turn this argument around and ask how you know Vitiate could resist emerald lightning.
Yeah, it'll be that easy. 🙄
It will be, given that he's fought off Abeloth before...
Boo hoo.
I'm sorry, are you having trouble getting it up sweetie?
Originally posted by Master Han
The contradiction in this thread is staggering; you dismiss all of Luke's "greatest" victories to be circumstantial, even though two out of three of his "losses" are...also circumstantial. 😉
As far as losses are concerned;
Luke could not defeat Nyax with his own capabilities and would have been overwhelmed but his companions Mara and Tahiri managed to prevent his fall; Tahiri actually turned the tide of this encounter by using some kind of weapon on Nyax, breaking his back in the process. In addition, Vong were also involved in this duel and attempted to put down Nyax. It shall be noted that Nyax's customizations made it difficult for his opponents to outduel him from close distance but nobody managed to undermine with Force powers either which is a shame.
Luke lost to Lumiya once because of he was not familiar with his combat style at that time. Luke then addressed his shortcoming in this aspect and managed to defeat Lumiya afterwards.
Luke lost to Exar Kun cleanly because he had no answer for some of the dark side powers of the latter. Luke's students saved his life somehow.
Originally posted by Master Han
Luke has consistently demonstrated the ability to defeat enemies far more powerful than himself, such as his kicking the shit out of Abeloth's bodies on multiple occasions, or defeating UnuThul. So even ignoring the fact that he is already more powerful than Vitiate in the Force, even if he weren't, his prodigious swordsmanship and tactical competence still give him the edge here. Once Luke gets up close, Vitiate is dead.
I don't see how Luke can brush aside Vitiate's telepathic abilities since he have no history with the latter. Nyax could overwhelm Luke with his telepathic abilities and he is not as strong as Vitiate (Nyax is acknowledged as one of the strongest dark jedi of his time in canon but nothing more). In addition, Luke could brush aside telepathic abilities of UnuThul because of his past history with the latter individual and could afford to pacify the latter individual with such history. However, Luke cannot pacify Vitiate in the same manner.
People need to understand that Luke is not invincible or infallible regardless of his power.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Luke undermined Sidious with aid of Leia. In addition, Luke undermined Abeloth with aid of lot of allies. In both of these cases, Luke did perform good but he was not strong enough to defeat these opponents single-handedly; he was outgunned at individual capacity.
Yes; Leia was unlocking Luke's latent potential. Potential he probably has realized by the Legacy era.
Luke lost to Lumiya once because of he was not familiar with his combat style at that time. Luke then addressed his shortcoming in this aspect and managed to defeat Lumiya afterwards.
Right...so the loss was circumstantial.
Luke lost to Exar Kun cleanly because he had no answer for some of the dark side powers of the latter. Luke's students saved his life somehow.
Exar Kun needed Kyp Durron's aid, and it still was pre-NJO Luke. So this loss was also circumstantial.
In this duel, Luke's situation is just like that of any other Force-user who have encountered Vitiate and fell under his spell; Vitiate spared some of these Force-users to further his agenda (Plot Device) but he miscalculated his chances in this manner and eventually fell. Funny that Sidious and Abeloth went out of the picture in same manner.
pre-KOTOR Revan and Malak were eventually able to shake off Vitiate's mental hold, if not his corrupting influence. Tol Braga was also able to overcome Vitiate's control. This leads to the natural deduction that a sufficiently powerful Force user could resist his probing outright.
I don't see how Luke can brush aside Vitiate's telepathic abilities since he have no history with the latter. Nyax could overwhelm Luke with his telepathic abilities and he is not as strong as Vitiate (Nyax is acknowledged as one of the strongest dark jedi of his time in canon but nothing more).
Nyax is obviously extremely powerful, given that he gives NJO+ Luke a harder time than...any combatant since. Even more than Abeloth.
Oh, did I mention that Luke resisted Abeloth's telepathy?
In addition, Luke could brush aside telepathic abilities of UnuThul because of his past history with the latter individual and could afford to pacify the latter individual with such history. However, Luke cannot pacify Vitiate in the same manner.
UnuThul could bend turbolaser bolts. He was likely far stronger than Vitiate.
People need to understand that Luke is not invincible or infallible regardless of his power.
This is a strawman, since nobody has said so. But Luke is the superior combatant here; a simple distraction, and Vitiate is in pieces.
And you still haven't given reason for anyone to believe that Vitiate > Luke in the Force (which wouldn't grant him the victory either way). Skywalker has manipulated dorvin basals and literally fought through thousands of vong warriors. Vitiate has done nothing to compete with him. He struggled to defeat Revan while on a dark side nexus.
Originally posted by Master Han
Lord Nyax and UnuThul are far, far more powerful than Vitiate, though...
Originally posted by Master Han
Given that Revan could resist all but his charged lightning...while on a dark side nexus...
You need to stop using Revan's analogy to undersell Vitiate because of following reasons:
1. Revan is not a weak-sauce even in comparison to other big names.
2. Vitiate's superiority over Revan is a confirmed thing.
Clear?
Originally posted by Master Han
I'd put him third, behind Palpatine and Plagueis.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
By this logic, anybody who have managed to undermine Luke should be far, far stronger then Vitiate.
No, but a being that can bend turbolaser bolts certainly is.
This is a misconception! Revan did not stood a chance against FLS of Vitiate; the former endured that power for a short while but he would have eventually died and probably worse. Revan's defensive abilities are extraordinary by the way but he was still outclassed when Vitiate upped his game.
Read what I said again. Revan batted back Vitiate's lightning bolts and only failed to his charged attack.
You need to stop using Revan's analogy to undersell Vitiate because of following reasons:
1. Revan is not a weak-sauce even in comparison to other big names.
But he's not on Luke's level. And Vitiate was on a DS nexus.
2. Vitiate's superiority over Revan is a confirmed thing.
Yeah, but it's not by the degree you'd wish for.
Holistic picture wise, Vitiate is considerably above Plagueis
On what basis?
and a match for Sidious (DE);
Don't flip-flop; you've arbitrarily considered Vitiate to be anywhere from slightly below DE Sidious to above Abeloth and the Father. It kind of gets annoying to debate someone who keeps changing his position whenever it fits him to do so.
even exceeds Sidious in some aspects.
He exceeds Sidious in mind control and Force alchemy. He is inferior in every combative area.
Some individuals have served Vitiate who seem to be more then a match for Plagueis by the way.
LOL yeah...no.
BTW, based on your "extrapolate mysterious ability to whatever degree you want" debating style, I could point out that Plagueis has demonstrated an ability to will people to die through their midichlorians. Of course, I have no evidence that it would work on Vitiate, but neither did you that Vitiate's mysterious flash would work on Yoda...at least Plagueis's power has been observed and described in some detail.