Luke Skwalker vs. the Sith Emperor

Originally posted by Master Han
UnuThul can bend turbolaser bolts. He's pretty hardcore.

Some individuals have served Vitiate who have very impressive feats as well but they were still inferior to Vitiate in power.

I have pointed out before that much of the abilities of Vitiate are unknown at the moment. This doesn't means that we should underestimate him. The fact that Vitiate managed to control countless Force-users (extraordinary ones included) during his span of existence, is a reflection upon his unprecedented capabilities.

Originally posted by Master Han
Oh yeah? Well, Luke's feats in NJO are 20 years before LotF...a third of his life.

Originally posted by Master Han
Well, since Luke already deflects the Emperor's lightning for a millisecond in RotJ, and given his propensity to learning everything in ridiculously short timespans...I wouldn't be surprised.

But, Luke would just use his lightsaber...

Originally posted by Master Han
Not really. Luke can create a distraction with a saber throw, emerald lightning, or flying debris, and then charge in to cut the Emperor's head off when he's distracted. It's obvious that Vitiate's so used to being the top dog, he has little experience in actual "combat".

Some individuals have served Vitiate who have very impressive feats as well but they were still inferior to Vitiate in power.

None of them have bent turbolaser bolts. 😉 And none of Vitiate's underlings have ever done anything to put them near Luke's level.

[quote]
I have pointed out before that much of the abilities of Vitiate are unknown at the moment. This doesn't means that we should underestimate him. The fact that Vitiate managed to control countless Force-users (extraordinary ones included) during his span of existence, is a reflection upon his unprecedented capabilities.

But it's not a reflection of his being anywhere near Luke's level.

And your point is?

...that maybe you should read context before acting baffled at a very context specific response?

Lightsabers do not work against Vitiate's FLS. The latter have history of disarming opponents armed with lightsabers with his FLS; probably destroyed their lightsabers with his powers. In-fact, Vitiate's apprentice, Exal Kressh, destroyed Thanaton's lightsaber with her lightning in a duel and she likely acquired this capability from Sith her Master.

That some Jedi can't deflect lightning from some Sith does not mean that Luke can't deflect Vitiate's lightning.

And Vitiate is easy to fool?

No, but emerald lightning is pretty hard to fool.

Vitiate can create illusions of himself in the battle to confuse Luke.

Luke is one of the best illusionists in the mythos.

In-fact, Luke might just fall to Vitiate's telepathic influence.

Until you can supply evidence of this beyond pointing towards Vitiate's "mysterious" abilities, I'm going to say no.

Originally posted by Master Han
...it sort of does.

Why?

Originally posted by Master Han
And? You don't see the blatant double standard in pulling off the same trick with Nyax vs. Luke?

Oh, that. Yes, I agree that Luke probably improved in terms of TP in those twenty years but I don't believe its shown that he did in the same way that TOR!Vitiate shows he's better than his former self in regards to lightning.

Originally posted by Master Han
I could turn this argument around and ask how you know Vitiate could resist emerald lightning.

Vitiate was able to resist his own lightning reflected back at him without damage. The same lightning much more powerful than Nyriss' which charred armored guards... Not to mention that even the Imperial Guards drawing off his power can block Revan's TK almost completely.

Originally posted by Master Han
It will be, given that he's fought off Abeloth before...

Abeloth is hilariously incompetent so so what?

Originally posted by Master Han
I'm sorry, are you having trouble getting it up sweetie?

I-I might need some help, sempai...... (6_6*)

Originally posted by Master Han
Yes; Leia was unlocking Luke's latent potential. Potential he probably has realized by the Legacy era.

Originally posted by Master Han
Right...so the loss was circumstantial.

Duels are circumstantial only in the sense when one or both involved are weakened due to some factors or one or both enlist help to undermine each other.

Originally posted by Master Han
Exar Kun needed Kyp Durron's aid, and it still was pre-NJO Luke. So this loss was also circumstantial.

Originally posted by Master Han
pre-KOTOR Revan and Malak were eventually able to shake off Vitiate's mental hold, if not his corrupting influence. Tol Braga was also able to overcome Vitiate's control. This leads to the natural deduction that a sufficiently powerful Force user could resist his probing outright.

Braga's accomplishment is disputed within the canon sources. A codes entry favors Braga's position in this aspect but Encyclopedia suggests otherwise. Fact is that Braga continued to be subservient to Vitiate after his fall and this explains that Braga's position is questionable or leaves room for doubt.

Originally posted by Master Han
Nyax is obviously extremely powerful, given that he gives NJO+ Luke a harder time than...any combatant since. Even more than Abeloth.

Also, Abeloth isn't a trained warrior. She relies on her overwhelming strength and brute force to subdue her opponents. In the words of Obi-Wan: "So uncivilized." However, make no mistake; Abeloth did got ample opportunity to utterly destroy Luke but wasted such moments (Plot Device). In one such moment, both Luke and Ben were bailed out by Vestara. Later on, Abeloth overstretched herself by confronting so many of her opponents in different parts of the galaxy. Even during this situation, Luke enlisted aid of Krayt to defeat the avatar he encountered.

Originally posted by Master Han
Oh, did I mention that Luke resisted Abeloth's telepathy?

Originally posted by Master Han
UnuThul could bend turbolaser bolts. He was likely far stronger than Vitiate.

In-fact, it is being argued that Marr is the next big thing after Vitiate; not even Jadus. Get the memo? Your argument is ridiculous.

Originally posted by Master Han
This is a strawman, since nobody has said so. But Luke is the superior combatant here; a simple distraction, and Vitiate is in pieces.

Originally posted by Master Han
And you still haven't given reason for anyone to believe that Vitiate > Luke in the Force (which wouldn't grant him the victory either way). Skywalker has manipulated dorvin basals and literally fought through thousands of vong warriors. Vitiate has done nothing to compete with him. He struggled to defeat Revan while on a dark side nexus.

Marr (who was one of the Dark Council members) have single-handedly routed whole Republic armies. He was immensely feared within the Republic circles.

Revan also have his phenomenal performance going in his favor aboard Star Forge. And Vitiate didn't struggle to defeat Revan; you do not understand the meaning of struggle, it seems.

So big deal if Luke did well against Vong? Jacen did well against Vong as well. And Vong are vulnerable to some kind of Force applications; they will be specially vulnerable to Sith Sorcery based applications. In-fact Vong can be undermined in several ways; put them in a setting where lot of rocks are present and a powerful Force-user can use those rocks to crush lot of Vong. So its not like as if Vong were unstoppable or something.

Kun's force ghost is a special case. The ritual were he absorbed the Massassi was to make him more powerful. So his force ghost>>His psychical self. And he still needed Durron, IIRC he said if he would have tried to do it himself he would have failed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That unlock helped Luke in martial confrontation; Luke managed to outduel Sidious due to this development eventually. However, when it came to Force abilities, Luke stood no chance against Sidious even with that unlocked potential by himself. Leia and Luke utilized Force Harmony technique (with their combined might) to disrupt Sidious's connection with the Force and this bought them sufficient time to escape from dark side powers of Sidious.

Yeah, Luke couldn’t stop the Force storms. But notice that Sidious never tries blasting Luke with conventional lightning. And DE Sidious >>> Vitiate.

This isn't a circumstantial event since Lumiya undermined Luke with her superior skill during this encounter.

Unless if Vitiate has Lumiya’s assassin training as the Emperor’s Hand, your point is irrelevant, and yes it is circumstantial to the same extent that Luke “outwitted” UnuThul, and a red herring.

Exar Kun was a spirit during this time so he needed a physical body to reach his peak effectiveness.

Yeah…no. This is a sneaky attempt to sneak in pure fandom on your part; Exar Kun wasn’t merely using his “peak effectiveness” against Luke, he was combining it with Kyp Durron’s abilities.

By the way, Luke was noticeably stronger then Vader during this time. In-fact, a canon source reveals that their was no excuse for Luke's loss to Exar Kun but that the Sith Lord pulled off this feat with his personal power.

Please name this canon source. And Luke was not “noticeably stronger” than Vader at this point.

No! Revan and Malak utterly fell to telepathic influence of Vitiate during their first encounter with him but managed to reduce this influence with passage of time. Revan got out of Vitiate's influence entirely, thanks to the mind-wipe he underwent. But Malak wasn't so lucky; this explains some of his irrational actions during his reign as the leader of an Empire. The Taris event is a prime example.

They managed to erase his orders from their memory. Did Vitiate intend for this to happen? I’m fairly sure he did not. So, his mind domination isn’t as insta-win as you’d hope.

Braga's accomplishment is disputed within the canon sources. A codes entry favors Braga's position in this aspect but Encyclopedia suggests otherwise. Fact is that Braga continued to be subservient to Vitiate after his fall and this explains that Braga's position is questionable or leaves room for doubt.

It still demonstrates Vitiate’s fallibility, which you seem to downplay.

Nyax looks impressive because Luke was among the opponents he faced. If Luke was not part of this opposition, people would have been touting that Luke would have curbstomped Nyax. Get the memo?

Right…and please feel free to explain how you conclude that Vitiate is therefore beyond him in power.

Also, Abeloth isn't a trained warrior. She relies on her overwhelming strength and brute force to subdue her opponents. In the words of Obi-Wan: "So uncivilized." However, make no mistake; Abeloth did got ample opportunity to utterly destroy Luke but wasted such moments (Plot Device). In one such moment, both Luke and Ben were bailed out by Vestara. Later on, Abeloth overstretched herself by confronting so many of her opponents in different parts of the galaxy. Even during this situation, Luke enlisted aid of Krayt to defeat the avatar he encountered.

Firstly, Abeloth is hardly a brute, given that she can absorb memories and abilities from anybody she possesses…and she possesses plenty of trained force users, including a sith lord.

Secondly, whilst Luke cannot stand against Abeloth alone, he’s the only one who has defeated her individual bodies alone, and my point that he has defeated beings more powerful than himself stands. Abeloth was not only more powerful than him, but also had a ridiculous damage soak, still able to fight with no apparent debilitation after getting chunks of her torso blown off. So what makes you think that Vitiate, a weaker version of Abeloth without the deity-durability, would stand a chance?

He is not exclusive in this aspect.

You’re right. He also wouldn’t be exclusive in resisting Vitiate’s, either.

Darth Jadus could prevent his enormous flagship from disintegrating out in the space with his power in the Force. According to Imperial Intelligence, he was second to Sith Emperor (Vitiate) in power. Now does UnuThul have comparable demonstration of strength?

In-fact, it is being argued that Marr is the next big thing after Vitiate; not even Jadus. Get the memo? Your argument is ridiculous.

Since none of these feats…wait, you only actually listed one. Since this feat doesn’t compare to bending turbolaser bolts or manipulating dorvin basals, yes, I get the memo; you’re grasping at straws.

By this logic, several Force-users qualify as superior combatants then Vitiate but they still fell to his powers.

Nope. The strongest opponents Vitiate’s ever faced are the Hero and Revan. The former defeated him, albeit under certain circumstances; the latter did relatively well. That he can take out five Jedi does not mean he can take down Luke.

Luke is not exclusive at manipulating Dorvin Basals. Kyp have comparable showing. Fail.

LOL, dude, you really need to stop blurting out irrelevant facts. So what if Kyp has also done it? Who said that Kyp was weak?

Marr (who was one of the Dark Council members) have single-handedly routed whole Republic armies. He was immensely feared within the Republic circles.

Define “army”.

Revan also have his phenomenal performance going in his favor aboard Star Forge. And Vitiate didn't struggle to defeat Revan; you do not understand the meaning of struggle, it seems.

Vitiate got knocked on his ass and let loose a primal hiss of hate. I don’t understand why you think this doesn’t count as his “struggling”.

So big deal if Luke did well against Vong? Jacen did well against Vong as well. And Vong are vulnerable to some kind of Force applications; they will be specially vulnerable to Sith Sorcery based applications. In-fact Vong can be undermined in several ways; put them in a setting where lot of rocks are present and a powerful Force-user can use those rocks to crush lot of Vong. So its not like as if Vong were unstoppable or something.

Uh huh, sure. More fanon aside, Luke’s performance against the Vong still outstrips anything Vitiate has ever done. His dorvin basal feat outstrips anything Vitiate has ever done. His supermassive black hole feat outstrips anything Vitiate’s ever done.

Yeah, bending turbolasers require a lot of energy since turbolaser bolts are rated in-canon as 200 gigatons of energy, which is more than enough to glass the majority of the USA and leave world-wide effects at a colossal level. Turbolaser bolts are also pure energy, so there's that too.

Originally posted by Master Han
And DE Sidious >>> Vitiate.

Originally posted by Master Han
None of them have bent turbolaser bolts. 😉 And none of Vitiate's underlings have ever done anything to put them near Luke's level.

I wonder about capabilities of Marr since he have amazing accomplishments under his belt.

And Jadus packs sufficient power to rival some of greatest Force-users of the mythos. His mere presence causes pain to those around him.

Not just this, Dark Council members have history of demolishing large buildings, disintegrating metal and even lightsabers with their lightning and more....

Originally posted by Master Han
But it's not a reflection of his being anywhere near Luke's level.

Originally posted by Master Han
...that maybe you should read context before acting baffled at a very context specific response?

Originally posted by Master Han
That some Jedi can't deflect lightning from some Sith does not mean that Luke can't deflect Vitiate's lightning.

Originally posted by Master Han
No, but emerald lightning is pretty hard to fool.

Originally posted by Master Han
Luke is one of the best illusionists in the mythos.

Originally posted by Master Han
Until you can supply evidence of this beyond pointing towards Vitiate's "mysterious" abilities, I'm going to say no.

Pretty sure the majority of the Sith Empire saw Vitiate as a God and were loyal to him. Only time I can recall that they united against him were the old Dark Council. Luke surpassed DE Sidious, DE Sidious was beaten by Luke in a duel, which does require force powers on one's part. The Force storm is just too much of an overpowered technique, but Luke has already faced a blackholes later in his life, so I'm sure Luke owns him.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are sadly mistaken.

I wonder about capabilities of Marr since he have amazing accomplishments under his belt.

Wonder all you want, but come back when you have some evidence to prove up.

And Jadus packs sufficient power to rival some of greatest Force-users of the mythos. His mere presence causes pain to those around him.

Uh huh…so does Abeloth’s.

Not just this, Dark Council members have history of demolishing large buildings, disintegrating metal and even lightsabers with their lightning and more....

None of these stack against manipulating dorvin basals…

Unlike Luke, Vitiate ruled over a Sith Empire for an extraordinarily long time; Sith are known to conspire and unite their strength against their leaders to overthrow them. It is logical that Vitiate is far more battle-tested then Luke is at personal capacity.

Hardly, since Vitiate doesn’t impress us in terms of tactical competence when he faces Revan’s posse.

Maybe you should explain your points more comprehensively?

I did, lol. You just missed context. I’ll give you a hint and ask you to snip this part out.

Their is a limit to defensive capability of a lightsaber, regardless of how talented and powerful the person is behind one.

More fanon. Where did you get this from?

Vitiate have felled whole Strike Teams armed with lightsabers with his powers so now you will claim Luke is superior to "combine competency level" of these strike teams which were also formed of some of the strongest Force-users of the Order? This is unlikely to be the case.

While on a dark side nexus, he had to charge his lightning to take down Revan. In that time period, Luke could counter with his own attacks, distract Vitiate, then close the distance for the kill.

Vitiate's defensive abilities are extraordinary by all accounts; he have shown himself to be virtually immune to telekinetic assaults, fire, explosives and he can tolerate his own lightning barrage, if turned back on him. In-fact, majority of Force powers are unlikely to work on him since he have tolerated one of the greatest manifestations of dark side power unleashed on Medriaas, thanks to his competency in Sith Sorcery.

This doesn’t mean he can walk through lightning that insta-killed a Vong slayer, or that he could ignore a giant pillar coming at his face, for example.

Luke's vulnerability to Nyax's telepathic influence is ample proof. Nyax isn't as powerful as Vitiate is.

Why isn’t he? Because you say so?

Originally posted by The Merchant
Pretty sure the majority of the Sith Empire saw Vitiate as a God and were loyal to him. Only time I can recall that they united against him were the old Dark Council.

Actually a shitton of Sith have been disloyal to him. If we look at Lassicar's codex entry we see. 'He has personally executed six Jedi and over two dozen Sith Lords who made the fatal mistake of crossing the Emperor.' Just Lassicar, a mere Imperial Guardsman, alone has had to put down 2 dozen Sith Lords for disloyalty. In the Sith Warrior storyline theres also Baras who's trying to usurp the Empire from Vitiate. Then theres Nyriss who tries to go against the Emperor. Then theres the 1000 Sith Vitiate has ordered Lord Scourge to dispose of for getting too ambitious.Then there the Revanites on Dromund Kaas. Then theres Kel'eth Ur and his rebellion and Lord Renge, both of whom personally challenged Vitiate and lost.....

Originally posted by Master Han
Wonder all you want, but come back when you have some evidence to prove up.

Jadus and Marr both fit the bill:-

Marr have remained unchallenged in his position in the Dark Council for over 40 years in an immensely competitive and dangerous environment and his combat feats are unparalleled.

Tales spread through the Republic of the masked Dark Council member who routed whole armies and deflected assaults more thoroughly than any planetary shields. (SWTORE, Page 174)

Marr became the de-facto leader of the Sith Empire in absence of the Sith Emperor; a huge accomplishment and responsibility. This is something that even Malgus couldn't hope to accomplish.

Jadus prevented disintegration of a 600m long flagship out in the space with his power in the Force.

Originally posted by Master Han
Uh huh…so does Abeloth’s.

Originally posted by Master Han
None of these stack against manipulating dorvin basals…

Originally posted by Master Han
Hardly, since Vitiate doesn’t impress us in terms of tactical competence when he faces Revan’s posse.

Originally posted by Master Han
I did, lol. You just missed context. I’ll give you a hint and ask you to snip this part out.

Originally posted by Master Han
More fanon. Where did you get this from?

Originally posted by Master Han
While on a dark side nexus, he had to charge his lightning to take down Revan. In that time period, Luke could counter with his own attacks, distract Vitiate, then close the distance for the kill.

Also, what's up with this DS nexus bullshit?

Watch this fight now:-

YouTube video

This is the setting:-

If Vitiate can put down an entire Jedi Strike Team of some of the strongest Jedi of the Order (As per the canon disclosure of aforementioned encounter) in a neutral setting, their should be no doubt about his capabilities.

Originally posted by Master Han
This doesn’t mean he can walk through lightning that insta-killed a Vong slayer, or that he could ignore a giant pillar coming at his face, for example.

By the way, Vitiate's FLS is no ordinary lightning; it is described as a swirling storm of pure dark side energies. To give you a hint, Zannah's Sith Sorcery based tentacles were also "manifestations of pure dark side energies" and they were virtually unstoppable just like the hinted FLS accordingly.

Originally posted by Master Han
Why isn’t he? Because you say so?

Originally posted by Master Han
Yeah, Luke couldn’t stop the Force storms. But notice that Sidious never tries blasting Luke with conventional lightning. And DE Sidious >>> Vitiate.

Also, I am not interested in your subjective rankings. Force Storm is a talent that other Force-users can also learn. And if Vitiate had the opportunity to learn it, he would have done so without issues. In-fact, the full extent of his capabilities are unknown.

Originally posted by Master Han
Unless if Vitiate has Lumiya’s assassin training as the Emperor’s Hand, your point is irrelevant, and yes it is circumstantial to the same extent that Luke “outwitted” UnuThul, and a red herring.

However, predictably you are now going to wank Lumiya in your next reponse, should you decide to give one.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yeah…no. This is a sneaky attempt to sneak in pure fandom on your part; Exar Kun wasn’t merely using his “peak effectiveness” against Luke, he was combining it with Kyp Durron’s abilities.

Please name this canon source. And Luke was not “noticeably stronger” than Vader at this point.

This source: Jedi vs. Sith: Essential Guide to the Force confirms that Exar Kun brought down Luke with his own power.

Also, Luke is certainly much stronger then Vader at this point. You think that Vader would hole a candle to Sidious (DE) in a duel? No! Vader would be crushed.

Originally posted by Master Han
They managed to erase his orders from their memory. Did Vitiate intend for this to happen? I’m fairly sure he did not. So, his mind domination isn’t as insta-win as you’d hope.

Originally posted by Master Han
It still demonstrates Vitiate’s fallibility, which you seem to downplay.

Originally posted by Master Han
Right…and please feel free to explain how you conclude that Vitiate is therefore beyond him in power.

Stop posting silly jokes and start using your brain.

Originally posted by Master Han
Firstly, Abeloth is hardly a brute, given that she can absorb memories and abilities from anybody she possesses…and she possesses plenty of trained force users, including a sith lord.

Secondly, whilst Luke cannot stand against Abeloth alone, he’s the only one who has defeated her individual bodies alone, and my point that he has defeated beings more powerful than himself stands. Abeloth was not only more powerful than him, but also had a ridiculous damage soak, still able to fight with no apparent debilitation after getting chunks of her torso blown off. So what makes you think that Vitiate, a weaker version of Abeloth without the deity-durability, would stand a chance?

Later on, Abeloth realized errors in her ways and resorted to using some Force powers on Luke but this time the Jedi Master was accompanied by Krayt and the duo defeated her prominent avatar with their combined might.

In contrast to Abeloth, Vitiate isn't so incompetent; he bombards his opponents with his Force powers until he succeeds to force them into submission (continuous to up his game until the opponent falls). He can unleash powers of such a scope that he can subdue whole Strike Teams with them without much effort. In addition, Vitiate also packs Abeloth like abilities; he can effortlessly switch from an host to host, should the need arise. Vitiate cannot be defeated until his essence is destroyed and his defensive abilities are also leet.

Originally posted by Master Han
You’re right. He also wouldn’t be exclusive in resisting Vitiate’s, either.

Originally posted by Master Han
Since none of these feats…wait, you only actually listed one. Since this feat doesn’t compare to bending turbolaser bolts or manipulating dorvin basals, yes, I get the memo; you’re grasping at straws.

Bastilla Shan could singlehandedly influence the performance of whole fleets with her BM talent by the way. The Dread Masters who served Vitiate could do even matter. Sometimes, their is too much power in an technique/application.

Originally posted by Master Han
Nope. The strongest opponents Vitiate’s ever faced are the Hero and Revan. The former defeated him, albeit under certain circumstances; the latter did relatively well. That he can take out five Jedi does not mean he can take down Luke.

Originally posted by Master Han
LOL, dude, you really need to stop blurting out irrelevant facts. So what if Kyp has also done it? Who said that Kyp was weak?

Originally posted by Master Han
Define “army”.

Originally posted by Master Han
Vitiate got knocked on his ass and let loose a primal hiss of hate. I don’t understand why you think this doesn’t count as his “struggling”.

Originally posted by Master Han
Uh huh, sure. More fanon aside, Luke’s performance against the Vong still outstrips anything Vitiate has ever done. His dorvin basal feat outstrips anything Vitiate has ever done. His supermassive black hole feat outstrips anything Vitiate’s ever done.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You stated that none of the individuals who have served Vitiate have Luke level feats or got close! You are wrong.

Jadus and Marr both fit the bill:-

Marr have remained unchallenged in his position in the Dark Council for over 40 years in an immensely competitive and dangerous environment and his combat feats are unparalleled.

😆 The funniest part is that you maintain serious contentions resembling what other people post as blunt comedy. You actually believe that:

“immensely competitive and dangerous environment”
and
“his combat feats are unparalleled”

disprove my claim that he’s not on Luke’s level!

Notice the mundane word choice. You’re literally posing as your real argument what Tempest and Yoda throw around as jokes.

On the other hand, I can post real, quantifiable feats and accolades in Skywalker’s favor. You’ve still produced nothing to match Luke’s dorvin basals feat, and nothing to match his accolades describing him as “perhaps the greatest swordsman there ever was”, or Sidious’s admitting that Luke has more potential than he does.

Tales spread through the Republic of the masked Dark Council member who routed whole armies and deflected assaults more thoroughly than any planetary shields. (SWTORE, Page 174)

“tales spread” – yawn. Luke’s feats aren’t apocryphal, you know.

Marr became the de-facto leader of the Sith Empire in absence of the Sith Emperor; a huge accomplishment and responsibility. This is something that even Malgus couldn't hope to accomplish.

WTF? So I suppose Kenth Hamner is more powerful than Malgus then. LOL?

Yet again, you seem to think that a challenge to prove that so and so sith lords are on Luke’s level merely resembles a challenge to prove that they are powerful; nobody ever denied the latter, but you still seem bent on wasting your time proving it. Do you seriously think that Luke wouldn’t be a top dog in TOR era?

Jadus prevented disintegration of a 600m long flagship out in the space with his power in the Force.

Disintegration from what?

Good! But the point flew above your head perhaps.

Oh no, I’m well aware of your point. It’s just silly.

This is your subjective opinion.

Not really. Dorvin basals have knocked moons out of orbits and bent turbolaser bolts.

Revan himself is a brilliant tactician; regardless of this fact, the clash still ended in favor of Vitiate. Imperial Guard force was deployed by Vitiate to prevent assassination attempts on him and it slowed down the advance of Revan's group. Revan did manage to enter the throne room earlier and confront Vitiate but the latter prevented him from striking him down even though Revan had an answer to some of his important abilities during this time. By the time Revan's companion got close, Meetra found it impossible to strike down Vitiate because the latter would have taken Revan with him. Finally, Scourge became hesitant to help his Jedi companions because the immense power of Vitiate had clouded his vision. So I don't understand that how Vitiate seems to be a lacky in this encounter.

Because he was a tactical error away from dying to Meetra’s saber throw? Because he just barely noticed the droid’s flamethrower attack? Because he got knocked on his ass by Revan? Because Meetra and Scourge were actually relevant in the fight?

Luke, again has defeated far more competent combatants who happened to be more powerful than the grandmaster himself in the Force. He does this through his insane lightsaber skills and honed tactical abilities. Neither of which Vitiate possesses.

You don't have a point then? I get it.

😆 Buddy, I’ll give you one last chance to back out of this line of attack, because you’re about to get your shit kicked in.

Lightsabers can get shattered or disabled if exposed to extremely lethal bursts of lightning. I have mentioned an example; try to recall it.

Your irritating arrogance is betrayed by the utter irrelevance of everything you say; why should I care that Vitiate can blow up lightsabers? That giant stamp in AotC can also break lightsabers. I suppose that would be a more suitable match for your omnipotent object of worship. I don’t know how this compares to Luke being able to teleport lightsabers as of FotJ. Hey, the last time Vitiate dealt with a mobile lightsaber, he almost died.

Vitiate underestimated Revan's abilities early on but eventually realized this and then put an end to Revan's advances with his real capabilities.

Oh, so he wouldn’t underestimate Luke? I heard humility is a prized quality amongst the sith.

But you still ignored my point; Vitiate, whilst on a DS nexus, could overcome Revan only by charging his lightning (or with his “real capabilities”), which Luke won’t give him time to do. He’s got better speed feats than Revan, and emerald lightning, fold space, or TK to keep him on edge. Distract him, or make him defend himself against a flying pillar, and then Vitiate’s head is gone.

Also, what's up with this DS nexus bullshit?

Watch this fight now:-

YouTube video

This is the setting:-

If Vitiate can put down an entire Jedi Strike Team of some of the strongest Jedi of the Order (As per the canon disclosure of aforementioned encounter) in a neutral setting, their should be no doubt about his capabilities.

Shit logic: I’m not talking about that engagement, I’m referring to the one where he gets knocked on his ass by Revan in a dark side nexus. That he can take out five Jedi demonstrated to be powerful, but ultimately unimpressive by Luke’s standards doesn’t ring with me.

So a Vong slayer is now comparable to Vitiate? 🙄

Given that said Vong slayers are supposed to be immune to the Force, and given that even a weakened one was more than a match for Kyp Durron…did I mention Luke had just fought through a thousand yuuzhan vong warriors?

By the way, Vitiate's FLS is no ordinary lightning; it is described as a swirling storm of pure dark side energies. To give you a hint, Zannah's Sith Sorcery based tentacles were also "manifestations of pure dark side energies" and they were virtually unstoppable just like the hinted FLS accordingly.

There you are with your irrelevant descriptors; wtf is “pure” dark side energies supposed to mean? Is regular Force lightning the made from China variety? Does it still possess a hint of light side influence, or something?

If you want more impressive vague desciptors, notice Luke’s being described as a “maelstrom” of Force energy who wasn’t even physically present in TUF, whose blades appeared to be twenty at once, and whose actions weren’t interrupted by any thought. He wasn’t even breathing heavily after pulling off this feat. And he isn’t even as powerful as he would become!

Nyax, at best, have been acknowledged as one of the strongest Dark Jedi of his era. On the whole, Nyax doesn't have credentials on par with those of Vitiate. Willing to believe that Nyax is superior to Sidious as well? Oh no!

That’s a ridiculous argument given that Nyax has all of a small portion of a novel of reading time.

Sidious have Force Storm is the only trick you have got in response.... 🙄

Too bad for you that Sidious does have Force storms, and too bad for you that they, along with Luke’s supermassive black hole feat, rank among the most impressive feats in the mythos. Luke is the superior Force user and the superior combatant by far.

Originally posted by Master Han
“tales spread” – yawn. Luke’s feats aren’t apocryphal, you know.

Actually SWTORE also mentions battles that initiated those 'tales.'

Originally posted by Master Han
😆 The funniest part is that you maintain serious contentions resembling what other people post as blunt comedy. You [b]actually believe that:

“immensely competitive and dangerous environment”
and
“his combat feats are unparalleled”

disprove my claim that he’s not on Luke’s level!

Notice the mundane word choice. You’re literally posing as your real argument what Tempest and Yoda throw around as jokes.

On the other hand, I can post real, quantifiable feats and accolades in Skywalker’s favor. You’ve still produced nothing to match Luke’s dorvin basals feat, and nothing to match his accolades describing him as “perhaps the greatest swordsman there ever was”, or Sidious’s admitting that Luke has more potential than he does.

You will find lot of answers in this book: http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-The-Republic-Encyclopedia/dp/0756698391

Dark Council is subject to competitive pressure of millions of Sith within the Sith Empire. Sometimes, a Council member doesn't even lasts a month in it. Marr held his position in this Council for over 4 decades which is testament to his enormous power and skill in galactic history.

Originally posted by Master Han
“tales spread” – yawn. Luke’s feats aren’t apocryphal, you know.

Originally posted by Master Han
WTF? So I suppose Kenth Hamner is more powerful than Malgus then. LOL?

Yet again, you seem to think that a challenge to prove that so and so sith lords are on Luke’s level merely resembles a challenge to prove that they are powerful; nobody ever denied the latter, but you still seem bent on wasting your time proving it. Do you seriously think that Luke wouldn’t be a top dog in TOR era?

1. Became a member of the Dark Council after winning in a competition involving millions
2. Held on to his position in the Dark Council for over 4 decades while still being subjected to competition from millions
3. Became the de-factor leader of the Sith Empire in absence of Sith Emperor (An indication of Marr's unparalleled power and influence within the Sith Empire even during the presence of other mighty Force-users in his time)
4. Was immensely feared within the Republic for his combat feats against its forces; even hinted to have routed whole Republic armies.
5. Is acknowledged as "a master of the Force" in an Encyclopedia; a type of medium in which accolades are hard to earn. Even Revan didn't earn matching accolade in the same medium.

??? Your delusion really have limits?

Originally posted by Master Han
Disintegration from what?

Originally posted by Master Han
Oh no, I’m well aware of your point. It’s just silly.

Originally posted by Master Han
Not really. Dorvin basals have knocked moons out of orbits and bent turbolaser bolts.

Also, explain that how Luke manipulated these Dovin Basals.

Originally posted by Master Han
Because he was a tactical error away from dying to Meetra’s saber throw? Because he just barely noticed the droid’s flamethrower attack? Because he got knocked on his ass by Revan? Because Meetra and Scourge were actually relevant in the fight?

Originally posted by Master Han
Luke, again has defeated far more competent combatants who happened to be more powerful than the grandmaster himself in the Force. He does this through his insane lightsaber skills and honed tactical abilities. Neither of which Vitiate possesses.

Originally posted by Master Han
😆 Buddy, I’ll give you one last chance to back out of this line of attack, because you’re about to get your shit kicked in.

Originally posted by Master Han
Your irritating arrogance is betrayed by the utter irrelevance of everything you say; why should I care that Vitiate can blow up lightsabers? That giant stamp in AotC can also break lightsabers. I suppose that would be a more suitable match for your omnipotent object of worship. I don’t know how this compares to Luke being able to teleport lightsabers as of FotJ. Hey, the last time Vitiate dealt with a mobile lightsaber, he almost died.

Originally posted by Master Han
Oh, so he wouldn’t underestimate Luke? I heard humility is a prized quality amongst the sith.

Originally posted by Master Han
But you still ignored my point; Vitiate, whilst on a DS nexus, could overcome Revan only by charging his lightning (or with his “real capabilities”), which Luke won’t give him time to do. He’s got better speed feats than Revan, and emerald lightning, fold space, or TK to keep him on edge. Distract him, or make him defend himself against a flying pillar, and then Vitiate’s head is gone.

Secondly, Revan being ineffective against Vitiate is not an indication of his supposed inferiority in comparison to Luke in Force Mastery aspects (Revan have same level of hype that Luke have in canon sources). Revan's performance against an incredibly potent Imperial Strike Team is nothing short of amazing as an example. In this encounter, Revan managed to fight the entire Strike Team with speeds fast enough to evade assassination attempts, unleashing saber throw attacks, potent bursts of FLS, rag-dolling powerful Force-users, bombarding the region with gigantic rocks, forming a virtually impenetrable protective bubble around himself after getting injured and eventually using Fold Space talent to escape. And Revan demonstrated this level of competitiveness after enduring 300 years of torture. Make no mistake! Revan is possibly stronger then even Nihilus.

Originally posted by Master Han
Shit logic: I’m not talking about that engagement, I’m referring to the one where he gets knocked on his ass by Revan in a dark side nexus. That he can take out five Jedi demonstrated to be powerful, but ultimately unimpressive by Luke’s standards doesn’t ring with me.

Originally posted by Master Han
Given that said Vong slayers are supposed to be immune to the Force, and given that even a weakened one was more than a match for Kyp Durron…did I mention Luke had just fought through a thousand yuuzhan vong warriors?

Also, did I mention that Vitiate killed thousands during his rise to power in Medriaas and he was jus ta child during this time? In-fact, Vitiate took control of the entire planet by the age of 13.

Originally posted by Master Han
There you are with your irrelevant descriptors; wtf is “pure” dark side energies supposed to mean? Is regular Force lightning the made from China variety? Does it still possess a hint of light side influence, or something?

Originally posted by Master Han
If you want more impressive vague desciptors, notice Luke’s being described as a “maelstrom” of Force energy who wasn’t even physically present in TUF, whose blades appeared to be twenty at once, and whose actions weren’t interrupted by any thought. He wasn’t even breathing heavily after pulling off this feat. And he isn’t even as powerful as he would become!

Luke's skills are not in question; his resistance capabilities are and he doesn't have an answer for all talents of Vitiate.

Originally posted by Master Han
That’s a ridiculous argument given that Nyax has all of a small portion of a novel of reading time.

Originally posted by Master Han
Too bad for you that Sidious does have Force storms, and too bad for you that they, along with Luke’s supermassive black hole feat, rank among the most impressive feats in the mythos. Luke is the superior Force user and the superior combatant by far.

Secondly, Vitiate have demonstrated the capability to control largest manifestations of dark side in galactic history. This indicates that he would have no trouble with handling Force Storm, should he learn about this technique.

Luke have some feats of his own but he isn't superior to Vitiate. He cannot be because Vitiate have a lot going for him. In contrast to Luke, Vitiate siphoned energies from countless beings on galactic scale and due to this development, he could not just prolong his life continuously and prevent dark side practices to take toll over his physical bodies but also could perform lot of actions simultaneously on galactic scale with his Force abilities. And when the need arose, he had answer for any kind of opposition. Stop underestimating Vitiate.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What a lame argument this is; Sidious not unleashing his lightning on Luke is an example of Plot Device.

And this is why nobody takes you seriously. That you dismiss all inconvenient evidence as being “plot device” is some of the most obtuse dishonesty I’ve yet encountered. Canon is canon, and I’m growing tired of your blatant attempts to subvert the evidence with your whim.

Just like your declaration of not caring about arguments over the most powerful sith lord, because you find such sources to be unreliable; you cannot dismiss evidence because you don’t like it! Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

Vitiate doesn't needs Lumiya's assassin training to stand a chance against Luke; I am sure that individuals much more competent and strong then Lumiya have served beneath him. Fail.

Your utter lack of reading comprehension shows through your pedantic rhetoric; that assassins have served beneath Vitiate doesn’t magically translate towards Vitiate himself understanding assassination techniques and combat applicable tactics. This is, really, really obvious. Your deviation about Lumiya is irrelevant, because Vitiate does not possess the skills Lumiya did in her confrontation (and she lost in their two “fair” fights). If anything, the opposite would apply here, with Luke having superior tactical expertise and battle experience, as well as vastly superior close quarters combat ability.

However, predictably you are now going to wank Lumiya in your next reponse, should you decide to give one.

No, I’m going to laugh at your failure to understand basic concepts such as “relevance”.

Kyp was just a student at that time. Due to his potential, Exar Kun found him as a suitable host since Exar Kun himself was very strong in life and he desired the body of a strong Force-user accordingly. Once possessed, Kyp was just a puppet; the combined might logic doesn't applies in this case because Kyp and Exar Kun were not separate. Also, Exar Kun had remarkable dark side abilities; he attempted to possess another student prior to Kyp, but that student resisted and Exar Kun destroyed him from within.

This source: Jedi vs. Sith: Essential Guide to the Force confirms that Exar Kun brought down Luke with his own power.

Forgive me if I don’t trust you, with all your attempts to arbitrarily slip your fanon imaginations into canon debates. I would like a quote. Not that I should even be bothering with this, as to where Exar Kun came from, and as to why JA Luke is relevant here (this is still 14 years before the start of NJO, let alone FotJ).

Also, Luke is certainly much stronger then Vader at this point. You think that Vader would hole a candle to Sidious (DE) in a duel? No! Vader would be crushed.

Luke didn’t hold a candle until Leia’s BM unlocked some of his latent potential, which suggests that later incarnations are more powerful than Palpatine. The same Palpatine that is canonically more powerful than Vitiate? This is DE Palpatine reborn, mind you. Luke > Sidious > Vitiate.

Revan fell due to betrayal of Malak. The Jedi captured him and then reduced him to a blank-slate like condition; this event cut Revan entirely off from Vitiate's telepathic influence. In contrast, Malak remained under influence of Vitiate, not on the scale of a pure puppet though since he improved a lot with passage of time.

Nope. In the Revan novel, the namesake character describes how they broke free of his mental grip and erased the memory of the sith empire from their minds.

It is bad example to consider. Nonetheless, Vitiate have set the bar too high in case of influencing the minds of others; he have succeeded in breaking anybody he wished to. A select few did develop special kind of countermeasures against this threat but this doesn't benefits anybody else. More importantly, even the strongest of his opponents couldn't break free from Vitiate's telepathic influence without external help. By the way, Vitiate could even destroy the minds of his opponents with his telepathic abilities (He even warned Scourge about similar fate once) but he spared lives of some because he decided to use them instead.

Feel free to give an example in which Vitiate mind controls someone as powerful as Luke.

Is this really a question? What have Nyax done that makes him superior to the individual who have history of controlling and surviving world-shattering powers, ruled over a Sith Empire for a long long time, felled whole Strike Teams of very powerful Force-users single-handedly, broken countless individuals with his telepathic powers (even in groups) and outmatched some of the greatest Force-users in the galactic history?

Stop posting silly jokes and start using your brain.

This doesn’t even have anything to do with the facts, and has everything to do with your paucity of analytical intelligence; that Nyax hasn’t had the time to do as many feats as you would wish doesn’t mean he could not. He is, at best, an unknown, so you cannot use him to further your point. Get the memo?

I suppose I should also break down for you the implications of Luke’s not being able to resist his telepathy but being able to resist Abeloth’s and explain to you how it’s a win-win-win for me. There are three possibilities here.

1. That Nyax is more powerful than Abeloth, in which case my point stands.
2. That Luke has grown considerably more powerful since…in which case your example is irrelevant.
3. That Luke has developed countermeasures since, in which case my point…still stands.

I have access to sources and I know how Abeloth have fought Luke. She have attempted to wrestle Luke into submission several times instead of unleashing dark side powers on him; this indicates that Abeloth lacks in Force Mastery department.

…or Luke is too powerful to subdue with such techniques. Hence why Force powers aren’t liberally hurled during duels. Abeloth clearly concluded that Luke’s Force defensese were too powerful – explain why Vitiate would be able to penetrate them.

Apples and oranges comparison; Luke isn't the only one to manipulate Doval Basins. Now should I remind you the magnitude of power that Vitiate can bring forth by creating energy reserves for him spanning to countless individuals? Vitiate can match Luke's feat against Doval Basins and then some.

Go ahead and show me where Vitiate matches his dorvin basils feat.

Preventing disintegration of a 600m long flagship mid-flight with raw power in the Force is not a matter of joke. Does UnuThul have a comparable showing with his raw power? Nope. Also, mention the hinted feat of UnuThul here so that it can be properly analyzed.

I could ask the same of you.

Bastilla Shan could singlehandedly influence the performance of whole fleets with her BM talent by the way. The Dread Masters who served Vitiate could do even matter. Sometimes, their is too much power in an technique/application.

Battle meditation is useless here, another example of your off topic ramblings (I don’t know where Bastila came from). Oh, and Luke knows battle meditation too.

Correction: The strongest opponents that Vitiate ever faced were in the form of Strike Teams.

More powerful than Revan? If you wish. Now establish their power relative to Luke’s.

Nothing is irrelevant in my response. It counters your delusion that Luke's feat of manipulating Doval Basins is supposed to determine his superiority over other powerful Force-users. Too bad, Kyp matched him. I guess, more could accomplish the same.

LOL, no. Kyp could accomplish the same…because he’s done it. This doesn’t mean Vitiate can do it. Stop grasping at straws, please.

You don't know about Republic armies?

“army” is quite the vague turn of phrase.

This isn't a sign of struggle. Vitiate's own power deflected back at him did that to him. Afterwards, Vitiate realized that he should no longer take Revan lightly.

…if you get knocked on your ass by your own attack, you are certainly struggling. That you even contest this notion is quite baffling to non-wankers.

Vitiate's performance on Medriaas outstrips anything Luke have ever done;

Let me guess; another ritual? Yawn.

his feats of purging whole Dark Councils outstrips anything Luke have ever done;

Those feats are, by your own admission, “mysterious”. Next.

he has galactic reach with some of his Force abilities which affirms his superiority over Luke in the aspect of Force Mastery;

Yawn; Luke also has galactic reach. He called Jedi from across the entire galaxy in Dark Nest.

him lasting over a millennium against overwhelming odds outstrips anything Luke have ever managed to accomplish and more....

More of your red herrings; longevity is irrelevant here, and you know it. Luke has better combat feats.

Luke is also more powerful than DE Sidious, who is, by canon, more powerful than Vitiate. That you do not accept such evidence and will probably insert your own fanon interpretations of Leland Chee’s hierarchy…yeah, I don’t care.

I've found that the SWTOR camp is the most inherently dishonest cabal of posters here.

So I'm still unsure why you're bothering with SWL, who is (no offense, SWL) held in near-universal contempt.

And not just here, either.