Originally posted by Nephthys
Why not? Bane surpassed the rest of the Sith Order inside of a few years.
Which is ridiculous. But that's my point. Logically, it makes zero sense. But certain prodigies can master knowledge at frankly outlandish rates.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And as I said, Yoda was also a teacher and numerous other things.
And Sidious wasn't a galactic senator and then Supreme Chancellor who, in addition to administrating the Republic, also directed the Confederacy of Independent Systems? When it comes to workloads, I'm pretty sure Palpatine had the biggest plate and the biggest plateful.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious had access to a lot more material than him sought out other aspects of and ways to use the force while Yoda seems to have stuck with Jedi knowledge only and actively expanded upon his knowledge with study which I don't recall anything suggesting Yoda did as extensively.
Palpatine only conclusively "had a lot more material" than Yoda after the birth of the Empire, wherein he studied the Force in "all its guises" and gathered the greatest works of Force knowledge from "over a million worlds." And he ruled the Empire for 20 years.
So we have Yoda, who was presumably a prodigy himself, given the implication from TPM that his midi-chlorian count was second only to Anakin's ("not even Master Yoda has a count that high!), placing him at least on par with known prodigies like Mace and Dooku, studying the Force for nine centuries. And Sidious comes along and rivals him by age 65 despite his own insane workload and then surpasses him with an additional 20 years.
Realistically speaking, the likes of Yoda and Vitiate should have vastly more knowledge than the likes of Sidious, Bane, Revan, et al. But they clearly don't. The latter group demonstrate mastery/knowledge in far excess of the time and/or resources at their disposal, whereas the the former group demonstrates a frankly vastly underwhelming mastery/knowledge when one considers the time and/or resources at theirs.
Which is why "realism" is not an appropriate gauge for measuring an adept's knowledge.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Realistically speaking, the likes of Yoda and Vitiate should have vastly more knowledge than the likes of Sidious, Bane, Revan, et al. But they clearly don't.
😉 What makes you think they do not? Has Yoda not been described as having a defense against every dark side technique? Has Vitiate not mastered the practice of a wide variety of sith alchemy and sorcery?
Originally posted by Master Han
😉 What makes you think they do not?
The fact that, to my knowledge, neither character has either been said to possess or demonstrates such mastery.
Originally posted by Master Han
Has Yoda not been described as having a defense against every dark side technique?
Not to my knowledge?
Originally posted by Master Han
Has Vitiate not mastered the practice of a wide variety of sith alchemy and sorcery?
Yeah... but so has Palpatine?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which is ridiculous. But that's my point. Logically, it makes zero sense. But certain prodigies can master knowledge at frankly outlandish rates.
Right.
Except Vitiate is also a prodigy. :I
Originally posted by The_Tempest
And Sidious wasn't a galactic senator and then Supreme Chancellor who, in addition to administrating the Republic, also directed the Confederacy of Independent Systems? When it comes to workloads, I'm pretty sure Palpatine had the biggest plate and the biggest plateful.
Fair enough, but he still does actively study, which I've no indication Yoda does.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Palpatine only conclusively "had a lot more material" than Yoda after the birth of the Empire, wherein he studied the Force in "all its guises" and gathered the greatest works of Force knowledge from "over a million worlds." And he ruled the Empire for 20 years.
And is there a reason to think Sidious surpasses Yoda in knowledge and mastery before he gained all those things? I rather thought he was considered to great in those aspects because of those things.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
So we have Yoda, who was presumably a prodigy himself, given the implication from TPM that his midi-chlorian count was second only to Anakin's ("not even Master Yoda has a count that high!), placing him at least on par with known prodigies like Mace and Dooku, studying the Force for nine centuries. And Sidious comes along and rivals him by age 65 despite his own insane workload and then surpasses him with an additional 20 years.Realistically speaking, the likes of Yoda and Vitiate should have vastly more knowledge than the likes of Sidious, Bane, Revan, et al. But they clearly don't. The latter group demonstrate mastery/knowledge in far excess of the time and/or resources at their disposal, whereas the the former group demonstrates a frankly vastly underwhelming mastery/knowledge when one considers the time and/or resources at theirs.
Which is why "realism" is not an appropriate gauge for measuring an adept's knowledge.
He rivals him in terms of combat ability (which Yoda had diminished in). I'm not sure where your getting that he does so in knowledge of the Force.
Why do they 'clearly don't?' Personally I think Yoda not exceeding Sidious is understandable given what I've already explained. But Vitiate is also a prodigiously powerful darksider with a hunger for knowledge, huge resources and 1400 years of seclusive study. And I don't think he has demonstrated an underwhelming amount of mastery/knowledge.
I prefer "logic" myself.
The point is soaring over your precious English head, but it wouldn't if you could be bothered to release Vitiate's withered dick from betwixt your lips and rise to your feet. Feel free to do so at any moment.
Vitiate was a noted scholar who slurped up the energy of eight thousand Sith Lords and "millions" of inhabitants of Nathema according to legend. He then proceeded to study the dark side for fourteen centuries.
Meanwhile, he fails to demonstrate conclusive mastery over Sidious, who spent a mere twenty years studying not just the dark side, but the Force itself, "in all its guises" from "the greatest works of knowledge" collected from "over a million worlds."
In other words, Palpatine was attempting to study a hell of a lot more than Vitiate is known to have studied in a sliver of the time. Vitiate should conclusively demonstrate far greater knowledge and mastery than Sidious but doesn't.
You've yet to explain how Sidious, in just 20 years, would surpass Yoda who trained and studied the Force for 800+ years.
You naturally want me to accept that premise in order to leverage acceptance of the unsupported notion that Vitiate's knowledge and mastery outstrips Sidious's.
But I'm disinclined to do so.
"The Tempest", you're beginning to confuse Force ability with Force knowledge, the latter of which Palpatine has never conclusively surpassed the likes of Yoda and Odan Urr. It appears that your only argument in support of your notion (which you admit makes no sense) is that we never demonstrate Yoda performing the same rituals and whatever, not exactly a fair contention given Yoda's moral inhibitions.
And Power of the Jedi claims Yoda has a defense for every dark side technique, and he also studied sith holocrons in the Jedi Archives.
Originally posted by Master Han
"The Tempest", you're beginning to confuse Force ability with Force knowledge, the latter of which Palpatine has never conclusively surpassed the likes of Yoda and Odan Urr. It appears that your only argument in support of your notion (which you admit makes no sense) is that we never demonstrate Yoda performing the same rituals and whatever, not exactly a fair contention given Yoda's moral inhibitions.
Palpatine essay
The Dark Empire Sourcebook states that, upon his ascent to Galactic Emperor, Palpatine “gathered the greatest works [of Force knowledge] from over a million worlds” and “studied the Force in all its guises throughout the galaxy, whether it was the shamanism of the Jarvashqinne or the tales of the Tyia,” and that he had “long ago gone beyond any knowledge to be found in the recovered teachings of the Krath and Heresiarchs.” The New Essential Guide to Characters mentions that Palpatine had studied the Sorcerers of Tund prior to their destruction, particularly the adept Rokur Gepta. Many may be unfamiliar with these four esoteric Force cults, so a brief overview shall be provided.
Palpatine essay
Star Wars: Complete Locations mentions that his headquarters within the Chancellor Palpatine Surgical Reconstruction Center contained “archives, Sith holocrons, and other artifacts,” an “environmentally controlled display case for Sith scrolls,” and a “massive Sith holocron uncovered on Korriban.” After the execution of Order 66, the Jedi Archives on Coruscant were “raided by Emperor Palpatine and his Dark Side Adepts,” according to the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia. The Dark Empire Sourcebook mentions a “full library of Dark Side texts” within Palpatine’s Citadel on Byss and the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia’s entry on the same Citadel reveals that it was home to “libraries of dark side tomes” and “dark side alchemical laboratories.”According to the Complete Star Wars Enyclopedia, page 51, a holocron was “a recording device used by the ancient Jedi Knights and Sith Lords to hold the teachings and lore needed to maintain the Jedi and Sith Orders.” The same source states that Emperor Palpatine “collected all manner of holocrons—both Sith and Jedi alike—in order to garner new information about use of the Force.” Palpatine’s subsequent raid of the Jedi Archives yielded the “restricted holocrons” which contained the deepest secrets of the greatest Masters of the Force,”—the ones desperately sought by Anakin Skywalker shortly before the rise of the Empire, which he intended to use to save his wife, Senator Padme Amidala, from inevitable death.
Not to mention that, per The Dark Empire Sourcebook, many of Palpatine's dark side adepts were masters of their own native magicks and sorceries and Palpatine studied those even as he instructed them in the ways of the dark side.
I tout Palpatine as the pinnacle of Sith knowledge because no one is known to have made quite that exhaustive search for Force knowledge.
Originally posted by Master Han
And Power of the Jedi claims Yoda has a defense for every dark side technique, and he also studied sith holocrons in the Jedi Archives.
That's actually great, more ammo for future Yoda arguments. Could you give me the full quote and page number?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not to mention that, per The Dark Empire Sourcebook, many of Palpatine's dark side adepts were masters of their own native magicks and sorceries and Palpatine studied those even as he instructed them in the ways of the dark side.I tout Palpatine as the pinnacle of Sith knowledge because no one is known to have made quite that exhaustive search for Force knowledge.
I think your argument here is quite circular: you admit that Yoda should have superior knowledge in the Force to Palpatine even when considering the latter's 25 years of galaxy-spanning resources, yet you conclude that Sidious must have greater knowledge...from that very same quotation. The fact is that Yoda himself studied the Jedi Archives, the largest gathering of Force lore ever known to exist, for 8 centuries, and we can therefore reasonably conclude that he knows more than Palpatine from a holistic perspective.
That's actually great, more ammo for future Yoda arguments. Could you give me the full quote and page number?
Sadly...I haven't been able to find it. I've heard it touted on KMC forums (do a google search) and, IIRC, mentioned on wookieepedia. I suppose it's possible that those who claim it are mistaken, but...nah.
Originally posted by Master Han
I think your argument here is quite circular: you admit that Yoda should have superior knowledge in the Force to Palpatine even when considering the latter's 25 years of galaxy-spanning resources, yet you conclude that Sidious must have greater knowledge...from that very same quotation.
I believe that, in a realistic context, a guy who studies X for 10 years is unlikely to understand the same subject as much or more than a guy who studies X for 50. I believe that Revan, Bane, and Palpatine all demonstrate an inordinate and unrealistically high mastery of the Force for their respective ages and duration of study when compared to extraordinarily long-lived scholars such as Vitiate and Yoda. Or perhaps Vitiate and Yoda demonstrate an appalling lack of mastery in spite of those long years of study.
Consider that, as Nephthys pointed out, Bane surpassed in alarmingly short time the entirety of Korriban's masters. And, in his estimation, Revan's singular Holocron transcended the teachings of Korriban's entire academy. Revan who was only a Sith Lord for, what? A year? Two? Three? And yet he demonstrates greater knowledge and understanding of the dark arts than lifelong Sith?
But it's merely written off as the product of extraordinarily prodigious minds and diligent studies.
In other words, none of it is portrayed realistically from the get-go. So why should I assume Vitiate and Yoda eclipse the Emperor in Force knowledge when the paradigm of realism clearly doesn't apply to this shit?
Originally posted by Master Han
The fact is that Yoda himself studied the Jedi Archives, the largest gathering of Force lore ever known to exist, for 8 centuries, and we can therefore reasonably conclude that he knows more than Palpatine from a holistic perspective.
And if time were given as the ultimate factor in conferring knowledge or mastery, I'd agree.
Though remember that Palpatine himself secured the Jedi archives in addition to what his agents scoured from the rest of the galaxy. Palpatine's knowledge base was, in all probability, in vast excess of what was available to Yoda and Vitiate.
(Which is another reason why, "realistically," Sidious shouldn't measure up. He had far more to peruse and only a fraction of the time. But I digress.)
Originally posted by Master Han
Sadly...I haven't been able to find it. I've heard it touted on KMC forums (do a google search) and, IIRC, mentioned on wookieepedia. I suppose it's possible that those who claim it are mistaken, but...nah.
Well, keep digging, please. I haven't found it yet.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
In other words, none of it is portrayed realistically from the get-go. So why should I assume Vitiate and Yoda eclipse the Emperor in Force knowledge when the paradigm of realism clearly doesn't apply to this shit?
But Vitiate is also possessing of extraordinarily prodigious minds and diligent studies?