I know you had an injury, but imma go ahead and post anyway for later.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well Vitiate almost certainly has the most Force knowledge in the mythos. He's extremely studious and has had 1400 years worth of time to study the Force. Not only that, but one of the reasons why he created the Dark Temple was to siphon the knowledge out of all who are buried there. If you take that as indicating Force Mastery too, then he undoubtedly surpassed nearly everyone in that regard, if not actually everyone.
There are quotations suggesting that Palpatine exhaustively searched the entire galaxy for all hints of dark side teachings in the Dark Times, presumably including any surviving work from the ancient Sith Emperor. That being said, realistically speaking it isn't very likely that he could have accumulated as much knowledge in 60 as Vitiate could have in over 1000.
But, as others have said…you really have to make up your mind here. One post you’re conceding that Palpatine surpasses Vitiate in power even as early as RotS, and then suddenly you’re proclaiming that the Sith Emperor is the most powerful entity in the SW mythos. And the fact remains that canon has explicitly referenced Darth Sidious to be the most powerful dark lord of the sith to ever live, bar none. Granted, I typically do not like taking narrative statements as proof rather than evidence, but evidence still cannot be arbitrarily dismissed without some reasonable grounds, and so the burden of proof is now on you to establish that all the dozens of quotes putting Palpatine at the top of the sith order have somehow been retconned.
And, as you’ve pointed out yourself, Palpatine’s Force storms are the most destructive manifestation of the dark side n the mythos by far. Nothing even Nihilus or Abeloth have pulled off even come close.
Originally posted by Master Han
I know you had an injury, but imma go ahead and post anyway for later.There are quotations suggesting that Palpatine exhaustively searched the entire galaxy for all hints of dark side teachings in the Dark Times, presumably including any surviving work from the ancient Sith Emperor. That being said, realistically speaking it isn't very likely that he could have accumulated as much knowledge in 60 as Vitiate could have in over 1000.
But, as others have said…you really have to make up your mind here. One post you’re conceding that Palpatine surpasses Vitiate in power even as early as RotS, and then suddenly you’re proclaiming that the Sith Emperor is the most powerful entity in the SW mythos. And the fact remains that canon has explicitly referenced Darth Sidious to be [b]the
most powerful dark lord of the sith to ever live, bar none. Granted, I typically do not like taking narrative statements as proof rather than evidence, but evidence still cannot be arbitrarily dismissed without some reasonable grounds, and so the burden of proof is now on you to establish that all the dozens of quotes putting Palpatine at the top of the sith order have somehow been retconned.And, as you’ve pointed out yourself, Palpatine’s Force storms are the most destructive manifestation of the dark side n the mythos by far. Nothing even Nihilus or Abeloth have pulled off even come close. [/B]
Exactly my point.
I highly doubt I conceded that, nor am I claiming Vitiate is the most powerful entity. I said that in terms of raw knowledge and mastery of the Force he's likely the best, given as you say, his huge period of study and highly studious nature, not that he's the most powerful.
Erm, no. Nihilus's Giga Drain is better.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I highly doubt I conceded that
Uh, yeah, you sort of have...
Originally posted by Nephthys
The assertion has been made that no single Jedi can stand against the Sith Emperor. How many agree I wonder.
And your later claim that the Sith Emperor can mind-rape anyone, including Luke.
Basically, I don't understand exactly where you put Vitiate on the power-scale; your opinion ranks from below RotS Sidious to beyond Skywalker.
Erm, no. Nihilus's Giga Drain is better.
It isn't more destructive than a Force storm that can destroy entire fleets, no.
Nah.
I wasn't serious when I said that. 😬 Although I do think Luke almost succumbing to UnuThul's domination indicates that he's not unbeatable in mental resistance.
Being able to mind-rape Luke doesn't make him more powerful than Luke anymore than Kreia being able to Giga-Drain him does.
And Nihilus' Giga Drain can wreck the surfaces of entire planets and kill every single thing on their surfaces, including almost a hundred Jedi Masters.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Nah.I wasn't serious when I said that. 😬 Although I do think Luke almost succumbing to UnuThul's domination indicates that he's not unbeatable in mental resistance.
OK, so maybe you should clarify where, at the moment, you would put Vitiate on the power scale in terms of raw Force projection ability.
Being able to mind-rape Luke doesn't make him more powerful than Luke anymore than Kreia being able to Giga-Drain him does.
You're insinuating that Vitiate's giga-mind-control and Kreia's giga-drain are one-time haxxed Force techniques that they uniquely learned, from which we cannot extrapolate overall Force ability. Of course, this would lead to the obvious question of why Kreia's secret technique has never been uncovered or obsessively researched by...well, every sith lord to ever succeed her. Because Force drain is hardly a technique only seen in KOTOR 2.
And Nihilus' Giga Drain can wreck the surfaces of entire planets and kill every single thing on their surfaces, including almost a hundred Jedi Masters.
This doesn't really compare to a Force storm's ability to ravage entire fleets, also destroy a planet's surface, and teleport objects lightyears through space-time.
Originally posted by Master Han
There are quotations suggesting that Palpatine exhaustively searched the entire galaxy for all hints of dark side teachings in the Dark Times, presumably including any surviving work from the ancient Sith Emperor.
Actually, the quotations claim that Palpatine exhaustively searched the galaxy for all hints of all Force knowledge "in all its guises," not being confined to Jedi or Sith traditions.
Originally posted by Master Han
That being said, realistically speaking it isn't very likely that he could have accumulated as much knowledge in 60 as Vitiate could have in over 1000.
Realistically? No, he shouldn't even be close. Nor should he be close to a 900-year-old Yoda. Nor should 20ish/30ish-year-old Revan and Bane, in turn, be close to Sidious.
But this universe very rarely obeys the laws of reality.
At least with Yoda, Sidious has a higher learning-rate and Yoda isn't known to have actively searched out and consumed force knowledge like he has.
Originally posted by Master Han
OK, so maybe you should clarify where, at the moment, you would put Vitiate on the power scale in terms of raw Force projection ability.
Maybe I should. 😛
Originally posted by Master Han
You're insinuating that Vitiate's giga-mind-control and Kreia's giga-drain are one-time haxxed Force techniques that they uniquely learned, from which we cannot extrapolate overall Force ability. Of course, this would lead to the obvious question of why Kreia's secret technique has never been uncovered or obsessively researched by...well, every sith lord to ever succeed her. Because Force drain is hardly a technique only seen in KOTOR 2.
Kreia made efforts to eliminate knowledge of the technique. As she explains to the Exile, Nihilus is a threat to all life as is his teachings, which is why she manipulates the Exile into killing him and the Trayas Academy:
"The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time. And that is why they - and their techniques - must be wiped out. No one again must experience and learn what her master did. As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely.
Then you understand how terrible such a power is. And why it must be ended. It is an empty road to the dark side, and by traveling it, the price is death before one's time. He is a breach in the Force, capable of consuming the lives of those around him. Sometimes the touch is slow, as it is with his crew. It is not something he can direct or focus, much like hunger itself. He is more of a hole in the Force than a living thing. Force Sensitives and worlds rich in the Force draw him. The Miraluka world was one such place. That is why where the Jedi gather, Jedi will die. He will feel it, unless they mask their presence - but Katarr called out as a beacon to him, and he could not resist it. And he cares nothing for the Sith or its teachings... or the Jedi. And when the Jedi are dead, he will feed on the galaxy, the Republic, and eventually, consume the Sith as well."
Originally posted by Master Han
This doesn't really compare to a Force storm's ability to ravage entire fleets, also destroy a planet's surface, and teleport objects lightyears through space-time.
Yes it can 'strip the surface from worlds', but it isn't shown to be big enough to do so with a single attack. It can do it with prolonged use, like I can shave my legs with a razor, but that doesn't make it an actual planetary-wide attack like Nihilus' is.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Kreia made efforts to eliminate knowledge of the technique. As she explains to the Exile, Nihilus is a threat to all life as is his teachings, which is why she manipulates the Exile into killing him and the Trayas Academy:"The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time. And that is why they - and their techniques - must be wiped out. No one again must experience and learn what her master did. As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely.
Then you understand how terrible such a power is. And why it must be ended. It is an empty road to the dark side, and by traveling it, the price is death before one's time. He is a breach in the Force, capable of consuming the lives of those around him. Sometimes the touch is slow, as it is with his crew. It is not something he can direct or focus, much like hunger itself. He is more of a hole in the Force than a living thing. Force Sensitives and worlds rich in the Force draw him. The Miraluka world was one such place. That is why where the Jedi gather, Jedi will die. He will feel it, unless they mask their presence - but Katarr called out as a beacon to him, and he could not resist it. And he cares nothing for the Sith or its teachings... or the Jedi. And when the Jedi are dead, he will feed on the galaxy, the Republic, and eventually, consume the Sith as well."
Luke claims that it can "kill worlds" in The Jedi Path. If we're going to take a consummate liar's word on Nihilus as the gospel, we'll be taking Luke's word on Palpatine's Force storm just as literally.
Originally posted by Master Han
Yes it can 'strip the surface from worlds', but it isn't shown to be big enough to do so with a single attack. It can do it with prolonged use, like I can shave my legs with a razor, but that doesn't make it an actual planetary-wide attack like Nihilus' is.
Do you have any proof to support that? Who's to say Palpatine can't enlarge the maw to encompass a planet?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Luke claims that it can "kill worlds" in The Jedi Path. If we're going to take a consummate liar's word on Nihilus as the gospel, we'll be taking Luke's word on Palpatine's Force storm just as literally.Do you have any proof to support that? Who's to say Palpatine can't enlarge the maw to encompass a planet?
I think you quoted the wrong part? Anyway, I already explained my reasoning here.
I don't need proof. Its shown as not being that size, so it isn't that size. You think he can do this, you prove it.
Nephthys
At least with Yoda, Sidious has a higher learning-rate and Yoda isn't known to have actively searched out and consumed force knowledge like he has.
A learning rate high enough to surpass nine centuries worth of accumulated knowledge and experience? Seems very unlikely. You can justify it a number of ways, but it's still ridiculous.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I think you quoted the wrong part? Anyway, I already explained my reasoning here.
The wrong part wasn't quoted. Luke claims that Force storms have the power to kill worlds.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't need proof. Its shown as not being that size, so it isn't that size. You think he can do this, you prove it.
lol
It hasn't displayed the power to kill worlds, either, but we know it can due to a number of sources. All Master Han has said is (correctly) that Force storms can kill worlds. You're the one attempting to interpret it with your razor analogy.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
A learning rate high enough to surpass nine centuries worth of accumulated knowledge and experience? Seems very unlikely. You can justify it a number of ways, but it's still ridiculous.
Why not? Bane surpassed the rest of the Sith Order inside of a few years. And as I said, Yoda was also a teacher and numerous other things. Sidious had access to a lot more material than him sought out other aspects of and ways to use the force while Yoda seems to have stuck with Jedi knowledge only and actively expanded upon his knowledge with study which I don't recall anything suggesting Yoda did as extensively.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The wrong part wasn't quoted. Luke claims that Force storms have the power to kill worlds.lol
It hasn't displayed the power to kill worlds, either, but we know it can due to a number of sources. All Master Han has said is (correctly) that Force storms can kill worlds. You're the one attempting to interpret it with your razor analogy.
And they do. Just like I have the power to shave my legs if given enough time.
And I'm using what the technique has actually demonstrated itself as capable of doing, while your speculating that it might be a lot more powerful than its been shown to be. Its like me claiming that Bane can topple a skyscraper. Which he can.... if given enough time and repeated attacks. But I doubt you'd let me just claim that without pointing out the time needed and circumstance.
Edit: BTW I don't... I don't shave my legs. Just so you know.