Originally posted by ?YLLAER
Bro I never said that you were definitively arguing the point but the implication was out there, Nephthys made that same observation which was what originally prompted me to address it.To clarify, regardless of whether you were saying it or not, it is clear that Dooku does not possess that same advantage that enabled Kas'im to overwhelm Bane in such a manner.
His technical acumen nonetheless outstrips PoD Bane's by lightyears, although doubtlessly you'll refute this with your tired diatribe of pulling up useless feats and accolades, because you'll probably conclude that we're referring to learning rate, and not absolute ability.
Nothing indicates that he is saying it is his best student ever.
😕 That's precisely what it says.
In present terms we already know he's approximately among the big 3-5 of his era so this doesn't really do much for him. Likewise with Yoda taking a personal interest in him. I acknowledge that Dooku stands out as being among the best of his time, it's from the context of the few very elite across history where he becomes a nobody.
😆 He becomes a "nobody"? Stop talking shit out of your ass; Yoda and Windu are both among the "few very elite across history", and they clearly take Dooku to be a serious threat. His skills are legendary; he is among the best not only of his time, but all time. This is stated in multiple canon sources. I don't know why you're trying so hard to argue the point.
lol. What is it with you people thinking anything so subject to hyperbole actually means anything?
🤣
99% of the time anything labelled as "perfect" is an exaggeration given that it's conceived as being a nearly impossible position to attain in any truly advanced discipline. Unless you wish to argue that he was truly perfect as a duelist from whatever standpoint whether it is technical or practical of which you will find little backing (there's a world of difference between being truly excellent and "perfect"😉 it's best that you acknowledge it as hyperbole. As I said, all your quotes are incredibly vague and meaningless with regards to the point you're trying to make.
Because you continue to spew bullshit that Dooku is a "nobody" next to a "few elite" among history, and deny Tyrannus's place in the hierarchy as one of the best.
Now, feel free to give me accolades of PoD Bane's that put him on Dooku's level.
lol. No.
Since you've produced nothing on Bane's part to match Dooku's own feats and accolades, I'm inclined to disagree with you.
Were these his words or are you quoting something credible?
RotS novelization. And don't poison the well - Dooku beat everybody in the order in sparring, consistently, excepting Master Yoda. He has every right to point out that he knows every weakness of his apprentice and master's form, especially given that he dedicated his entire lightsaber regimen to dueling.
Ok but your point was that he has high level knowledge of every other form (which along with his high level Makashi made him comparably skilled to Kas'im). What you describe only relates to competitive measures against those forms with his own form (an area that Bane kills him in by the way but you don't hear me bragging), not the actual ability to use those forms, and while I agree it makes sense that he would perhaps have a very good understanding of the other forms from that respect you'll find it hard to quantify the extent to which he does so (he certainly cannot be said to be comparable to bane in his inside out understand of Kas'im's entire arsenal). Kas'im on the other hand is basically a confirmed high end master of all of them, and can and does use all of them in combat.
Until you actually provide some evidence to the contrary, Dooku's technical knowledge, collected from 80 years of lightsaber dueling, to the point where he specialized in a form that is useless outside of such types of combat, FAR outstrips Bane's. We know that Bane was highly talented and learned lots of djem so movements, that he probably knew the basics of the other forms, and that he was intimately familiar with the double bladed lightsaber.
Big deal. Bane hadn't ever even seen anyone use jar'kai - a testament to his limited training time and experience. Dooku, on the other hand, has seen pretty much everything. The breadth of his skills with a lightsaber was so great he was able to train a 4 armed, non-Force sensitive cyborg.
I'd also like to point out that it is one thing to be able to react to users of each style individually but something else entirely to react to a single user of every style that routinely switches between them and blends them together.
Actually, such a tactic is precisely what Anakin and Obi Wan try against Dooku in RotS. Note that makashi is ill suited to facing multiple opponents. Dooku is, once again, far greater than you've imagined.
Of when? His own time period? Big whoop lol. Of ever? It's all relative bro.
🙄 My point being that his decades of technical knowledge far exceeds Bane's of a year.
Are we certain that this is such a rare feat? And for what did he make entries?
Again, the point is to refute your ridiculous downplaying of Dooku's abilities and insistence that he was only proficient with makashi. He trained Grievous in all the lightsaber forms, and also lectured on telekinesis.
Show me where in PoD Bane matches this depth and breadth of ability.
That is not true, the magnaguards were programmed with the forms and Grievous's ability to mimic them is credited to the advanced combat algorithms in his brain.
Um, no. It's made quite clear that Dooku trained them, or at least Grievous himself.
They really don't, they're entirely vague and unsubstantiated and Bane has his very own fair share of impressive but vague accolades to his name. The difference is that in terms of clear descriptions of their technical abilities Bane completely shits on Dooku.
Sure, go ahead. Your deluded (and I'm not exaggerating by using that word) insistence that Bane, with one or two years of training, who hadn't even faced a jar'kai user before, knows more about the lightsaber than one of the greatest duelists in Jedi history with eight decades of experience under his belt is...
As of yet utterly devoid of any textual support whatsoever.
And I loathe to have to wait for the inevitable string of red herrings to come out.
Sure but what I was saying is that Mace Windu strongly implies that Makashi would be the only thing Dooku would be in a position to teach him.
😆
Your reading comprehension is a joke. I've provided plenty of evidence that Dooku was intimately familiar with the lightsaber far beyonod makashi. Stop pulling shit out of your ass.
😂 No lol it clearly hasn't. Well it has actually but not in the way you would like. The only thing that would suggest as much are your ridiculous and subjective interpretations of George's commentary.
LOL, so you think George Lucas's calling the Jedi "in their prime" while referring to action sequences and lightsaber battle choreography is ambiguous?
Like, how could you possibly pull off this bullshit and not have your internal alarms going off to call you out on your crap? Because I know as well as you do that, when you inevitably produce your favorite Bane quotes, none of them are going to be remotely less "ambiguous" than any of mine, you hypocrite.
Well you didn't post the passage before that but it if you did you would clearly see that he attacks without warning and any real justification so we cannot be sure she had her defences up in the first place. <snipped for word limit>
You're grasping at straws here. Why wouldn't Ventress try to defend herself? Qordis tried to defend himself against Bane, and your implied reasoning works both ways. And I'm not going to bother addressing your "offense gets a bigger boost" speculation; you know, right after your accusing me of using ambiguous evidence?
PoD Bane on the other hand used the Force to dominate, with laughable ease, Qordis, clearly one of the 4 most significant members of the BoD and it's explicitly stated that Qordis's defences were up. None of Dooku's Force Power-on-Jedi feats are remotely comparable.
😆 🤣
That you seriously compared Qordis, who has precisely ZERO feats and accolades, against Ventress, a prodigy who has stalemated or defeated some of the explicitly greatest swordsmen of the Jedi Order's 25000 year long history makes me wonder if I'm wasting my time with you.
Anakin had the potential to be great but by RotS was not at all particularly powerful with The Force
For one we're discussing PoD Bane, RoT for the most part horribly underpowers him and his PoD incarnation, aside from learning a few new tricks, is clearly demonstrated to be the more impressive incarnation.
So Bane has already peaked before his 40s?
Dooku's still growing stronger well into his elderly years. =greater potential.
It makes no difference that it happened during a ritual, it called upon abilities that Bane would have just as ready access to in a combat scenario.
...no, it doesn't. Feel free to show me where Bane calls upon such abilities in combat.
Originally posted by Master Han
His technical acumen nonetheless outstrips PoD Bane's by lightyears, although doubtlessly you'll refute this with your tired diatribe of pulling up useless feats and accolades, because you'll probably conclude that we're referring to learning rate, and not absolute ability.
I'm not referring to Bane's learning rate, I'm referring to what his learning rate would suggest about his realised ability.
😕 That's precisely what it says.
It really doesn't, no part of the text would indicate as much. The Jedi had been speaking about who it would be best to take with them onto a mission and they began speaking about different Jedi and then Yoda idealistically suggests that Dooku would be the best. he's clearly limiting the talk to currently living Jedi.
😆 He becomes a "nobody"? Stop talking shit out of your ass; Yoda and Windu are both among the "few very elite across history", and they clearly take Dooku to be a serious threat. His skills are legendary; he is among the best not only of his time, but all time. This is stated in multiple canon sources. I don't know why you're trying so hard to argue the point.
I'm not sure that I would consider them among the very best but even if I were it's clear that Dooku was no real threat to Yoda even on a world that vastly magnified his abilities, so I'm not sure you can say that Dooku is in the same league as Yoda, Sidious or Mace Windu. At best you can bump Mace Windu out of that upper tier and suggest his victory over Sidious was owing to some sort of stylistic advantage or other circumstance but it's clear Dooku is not in the same league as Yoda or Sidious.
RotS novelization. And don't poison the well - Dooku beat everybody in the order in sparring, consistently, excepting Master Yoda. He has every right to point out that he knows every weakness of his apprentice and master's form, especially given that he dedicated his entire lightsaber regimen to dueling.
We've already established that he likely would have sparred extensively with other lightsaber practitioners and that his chosen form would suggest a natural inclination for as much but that alone does not prove that he has a perfect understanding of all of the forms' weaknesses and how to counter them as you, and he, would like to claim.
Until you actually provide some evidence to the contrary, Dooku's technical knowledge, collected from 80 years of lightsaber dueling, to the point where he specialized in a form that is useless outside of such types of combat, FAR outstrips Bane's. We know that Bane was highly talented and learned lots of djem so movements, that he probably knew the basics of the other forms, and that he was intimately familiar with the double bladed lightsaber.
You're assuming that Dooku's 80 years of experience (of which there would have certainly been diminishing returns if not stagnation at some point) outstrips Bane's vastly superior learning rate when that same learning rate has been demonstrated to acquire literally lifetimes worth of technical knowledge gained solely from his sparring sessions with Kas'im. He had far more time to work on his own chosen form (granted his sparring sessions with Kas'im would have been by far the most intense) and we have every reason to believe he would take the progression in his own form even more seriously than becoming intimately familiar with the techniques of a single individual; he also progresses in a similar manner in every single discipline so the common demoninator is clearly his learning ability.
Big deal. Bane hadn't ever even seen anyone use jar'kai - a testament to his limited training time and experience. Dooku, on the other hand, has seen pretty much everything.
Sure but in this scenario all that Bane will have to worry about is Dooku's Makashi which is a style he's familiar with.
The breadth of his skills with a lightsaber was so great he was able to train a 4 armed, non-Force sensitive cyborg.
We don't really know the extent to which he trained Grievous and it may have been as minor as some regular sparring; we also know that Grievous was able to, through the combat algorithms programmed in his brain, mimic the techniques of other Jedi and utilise the same techniques with all four of his lightsabers so it's very much possible that grievous uses the same techniques with all four sabers as other Jedi do with two, in which case Dooku wouldn't have had to adapt his training in any real way in the first place.
Actually, such a tactic is precisely what Anakin and Obi Wan try against Dooku in RotS.
Which is still nothing compared to Kas'im's hybrid of all seven forms and arguably non canon anyway (I understand that the novel can elaborate on stuff we don't see in the movie but the omission of such a pertinent detail is practically equivalent to a contradiction).
Note that makashi is ill suited to facing multiple opponents. Dooku is, once again, far greater than you've imagined.
lol.
🙄 My point being that his decades of technical knowledge far exceeds Bane's of a year.
My point being that Bane's learning rate of over 9000 far exceeds Dooku's of, at most, a 6 or a 7.
Again, the point is to refute your ridiculous downplaying of Dooku's abilities and insistence that he was only proficient with makashi. He trained Grievous in all the lightsaber forms,
This is not true.
and also lectured on telekinesis.
In what capacity?
Um, no. It's made quite clear that Dooku trained them, or at least Grievous himself.
This is simply not true.
Your reading comprehension is a joke. I've provided plenty of evidence that Dooku was intimately familiar with the lightsaber far beyonod makashi. Stop pulling shit out of your ass.
As far as effectively using or teaching? No you really haven't.
LOL, so you think George Lucas's calling the Jedi "in their prime" while referring to action sequences and lightsaber battle choreography is ambiguous?
A little ambiguous though I think his point was easy to determine: that we only saw below par Jedi in the OT, and that we were finally able to see real Jedi at work in the PT when the order was at its most prominent. He is clearly making a point about how formidable the Jedi were in battle but the point wasn't that the Jedi we see in the PT were at their most powerful, it was that the order was no longer such a shadow of its former self that we were finally able to see what Jedi in general are actually really like.
Like, how could you possibly pull off this bullshit and not have your internal alarms going off to call you out on your crap? Because I know as well as you do that, when you inevitably produce your favorite Bane quotes, none of them are going to be remotely less "ambiguous" than any of mine, you hypocrite.
Not true.
You're grasping at straws here. Why wouldn't Ventress try to defend herself? Qordis tried to defend himself against Bane, and your implied reasoning works both ways. And I'm not going to bother addressing your "offense gets a bigger boost" speculation; you know, right after your accusing me of using ambiguous evidence?
It's more that she just might not have expected an attack at that time? Qordis by comparison was stated to have had his Force Shield up.
😆 🤣That you seriously compared Qordis, who has precisely ZERO feats and accolades, against Ventress, a prodigy who has stalemated or defeated some of the explicitly greatest swordsmen of the Jedi Order's 25000 year long history makes me wonder if I'm wasting my time with you.
Or maybe Asajj Ventress just wasn't very high tier (particularly with the Force where she has basically no feats) during an era that wasn't particularly great and fought against other Jedi that just weren't very high teir either. Qordis has a far higher standing than she does and it really isn't much of a stretch to conclude that he was one of the very most powerful individuals of his time period. They're pretty much on par in them both not having demonstrated much with the Force but Ventress has far more opportunity to do so and everything else we know about them would suggest that Qordis was more powerful. And more importantly we know that Qordis's defences were up and Bane tore through them in a manner described as with laughable ease
So Bane has already peaked before his 40s?Dooku's still growing stronger well into his elderly years. =greater potential.
No, the idea is that he's still growing more powerful, the later books just don't accurately portray that on closer examination.
And no lol, Bane becomes far more powerful after about a couple of eyars of training.
...no, it doesn't. Feel free to show me where Bane calls upon such abilities in combat.
It makes no difference. Perhaps you should instead not get so caught up on the word "ritual" and instead focus on prep and whether he was receiving any boosts, in which case the feat was perfomed in real time with no power amplifiers and on at the very least a completely neutral world, if not lightside strong.
Originally posted by ?YLLAER
I'm not referring to Bane's learning rate, I'm referring to what his learning rate would suggest about his realised ability.
You've provided no feats or accolades to match Dooku's.
It really doesn't, no part of the text would indicate as much. The Jedi had been speaking about who it would be best to take with them onto a mission and they began speaking about different Jedi and then Yoda idealistically suggests that Dooku would be the best. he's clearly limiting the talk to currently living Jedi.
By that logic, Yoda would have chosen Windu, who is already Dooku's equal, as stated in the same novel. You're yet again trying desperately to downplay accolades that clearly outstrip any of Bane's by a vast margin - and for what, exactly?
I'm not sure that I would consider them among the very best
😆
You wouldn't consider Yoda to be among the very best?
We've already established that he likely would have sparred extensively with other lightsaber practitioners and that his chosen form would suggest a natural inclination for as much but that alone does not prove that he has a perfect understanding of all of the forms' weaknesses and how to counter them as you, and he, would like to claim.[quote]A little ambiguous though I think his point was easy to determine: that we only saw below par Jedi in the OT, and that we were finally able to see real Jedi at work in the PT when the order was at its most prominent. He is clearly making a point about how formidable the Jedi were in battle but the point wasn't that the Jedi we see in the PT were at their most powerful, it was that the order was no longer such a shadow of its former self that we were finally able to see what Jedi in general are actually really like.
You don't know what "golden age" means. You don't know what "prime" means.
Or maybe Asajj Ventress just wasn't very high tier (particularly with the Force where she has basically no feats) during an era that wasn't particularly great and fought against other Jedi that just weren't very high teir either. Qordis has a far higher standing than she does and it really isn't much of a stretch to conclude that he was one of the very most powerful individuals of his time period. They're pretty much on par in them both not having demonstrated much with the Force but Ventress has far more opportunity to do so and everything else we know about them would suggest that Qordis was more powerful. And more importantly we know that Qordis's defences were up and Bane tore through them in a manner described as with laughable ease
...OK, I'm done with you.
You ignore authorial fiats listing the PT era as the prime of the Jedi combat arts.
You ignore narrative fiats describing the Jedi you call "not very high tier" among the greatest swordsmen in the Order's 25,000 year history.
You ignore the fact that said Jedi Order not only produced the most powerful light sider to ever oppose the darkness (Yoda), but two Jedi (Yoda and Windu) who could, by canon and Lucas's word, compete with Palpatine...
the most powerful sith lord in history per canon
the beneficiary of a line of sith that canonically grew in power through the generations
and, irony at its finest, the accumulation of the dream of your favorite sith. 🙄 I think Darth Bane would want Sidious and co. to be more powerful than himself. And we can see that the top dogs of the Jedi Order can compete with Palpatine. Few, if any, Jedi or Sith from any other era can claim the same.
All of the canon evidence aligns against you, and your only response is to vaguely dismiss it as too "ambiguous" for your taste?
You even claimed that RotS Anakin wasn't particularly powerful in the Force. 😆
Holy shit, this is beginning to tire me. Feel free to come back when you have some actual evidence to support your contradiction of the plethora of G canon laid against you.