Originally posted by Master Han
You apply precisely the opposite logic to evaluating Nyax.
Originally posted by Master Han
The word "ritual" implies the use of sith alchemy or some measure of exotic power. Sidious and Plagueis performed their feats through sheer force of will. And I think upsetting the Force itself over the course of months surpasses Vitiate's "I need hundreds of years and thousands of sith lords" feats.
Here is an example of a ritual:-
They were communing with the Force, all of them slipping into a meditative trance as one. Their minds drifted deeper and deeper into the well of power contained within each individual, drawing on their strength and combining it through a single conduit. Bane stood in the center of the circle, urging them on.
"Touch the dark side. The dark side is one. Indivisible."
The night sky filled with dark clouds and a fierce wind swirled across the plateau, tearing at the cloaks and capes of the Sith. The air shook with the thunder and crackle of a mounting electrical storm. Bolts of blue-white lightning arced through the air, and the
temperature suddenly dropped.
"Give yourself over to the dark side. Let it surround you. Engulf you. Devour you."
The Brotherhood slipped deeper into the collective trance, barely even aware of the storm now raging about their physical selves. Bane stood at the eye of the storm, drawing the bolts of lightning into himself, feeding on them. He felt his strength surge as he channeled and focused the dark side from the others. This is how it should be! All the power of the Brotherhood in one body! The only way to unleash the full potential of the dark side!
"Do you feel invincible? Invulnerable? Immortal?"
He had to shout to be heard above the howling wind and thunder. A web of lightning spiraled out from his body, connecting him to each of the other Sith. He shivered then suddenly went stiff, arms spread out at his sides. Slowly, his rigid body began to rise into the air.
"Can you feel it?" he screamed, feeling as if the raw power of the Force roaring through him might rip his very flesh asunder. "Are you ready to kill a world?"
=some information later=
The storm rolled down from the plateau and rumbled across the forest. Hundreds of forks of searing lightning shot down from the sky-and the forest erupted. Trees burst into flames, the blaze racing through the branches and spreading out in all directions. The underbrush smoldered, smoked, and ignited; and a wall of fire swept across the planet's surface.
The inferno consumed everything in its path.
Heat and fire. There was nothing else in Bane’s world. It was as if he had become the storm itself: he could see the world before him, swallowed up in red and orange and reduced in seconds to ash and embers by the unchained fury of the dark side.
It was glorious. And then suddenly it was gone.
There was a jarring thump as his body dropped from where it had been hovering five meters above the ground. For several seconds he was completely disoriented, unable to figure out what happened. Then he understood: the connection had been broken.
He rose to his feet slowly, uncertain of his balance. All around him were the forms of the Sith, no longer kneeling in meditation but collapsed or rolling on the ground, their minds reeling from the sudden end to the joining ritual. One by one they also regained their
composure and stood, most looking as confused as Bane had been only seconds before.
Then he noticed Lord Kaan standing off to the side, over by the fliers.
"What happened?" Bane demanded angrily. "Why did you stop?"
"Your plan worked," Kaan replied curtly. "The forest is destroyed, the Jedi have fled to open ground. They are exposed, vulnerable. Now we go to finish them off."
Kaan had broken the connection, and somehow he had managed to drag the others out along with him, as if he had some hold over their minds. Perhaps he does, Bane thought. Further proof that they all had to be destroyed if the Sith were to be cleansed. (Star Wars: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)
Originally posted by Allankles
Sidious, Vader, Ragnos, Vitiate, Plagueus, Krayt, Tyranus, Naga Sadow, Tulak Horde, Sith EmperorEDIT: Notable mentions to, Nihilus, Kun, Revan and Muur
I do like this list, but I wanna comment I wish we got to see more of Naga in action without his ship. I mean, he did big stuff in the comic, but largely using the ship as a force booster, and a sith apprentice with the same ship later replicated the big feats, saying it wasn't primarily Naga's power that did it.
The TempestKrayt, Caedus, Wyyrlok, Tenebrous, XoXaan, and Karness Muur probably qualify too.
Woot, remembering some of the hundred-year-darkness lords 🙂
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are ignoring the ambiguity factor in the matters of speed.
We know that Sidious is very fast since he blitzed [b]some skilled Jedi Masters. However, we CANNOT just assume by default that Sidious will manage to blitz every individual barring Mace, Luke and Yoda in history. Sidious didn't blitz Maul and Opress either. [/B]
But this response shows that you don’t get my earlier point, and quite frankly I’m baffled what is so hard for you to grasp.
Plaguies displayed amazing speed feats, one could argue that they are virtually unmatched in the mythos.
Vitiate showed nothing resembling such speed, and he was certainly in position to do so while fighting Revan/Meetra/Scourge or the HoT.
The conclusion is simple: Plagueis is much, much faster than Vitiate, unless disproved by Vitiate’s speed showings.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Their is more to just speed in combat situations. Most important aspect is the "mastery of the Force" itself. Force-users are known to augment their physical movements but they also have precognition and other tricks up their sleeves.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Here is a hint: Tinn, Kolar, Fisto, Opress and Maul did not understood The Force in ways like Sidious did or even close.
Besides, we have countless examples that knowledge of the Force is not a decisive factor in combat. (It can help, of course, but it is not a given).
Examples range from Anakin stomping Dooku to HoT defeating Vitiate….
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As pointed out earlier, Vitiate have history of lot of battles as well and he was not overcome by speed in any; his opponents ranged from normal individuals to Force prodigies.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Scourge expected them to search him, or at least instruct him to turn over his weapons. But Yarri and the others simply stood at attention, waiting for him to enter. The fact that they showed no concern over letting an armed Sith Lord speak to the Emperor face-to-face without any kind of preparation was a testament to the Emperor's unfathomable power. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)
Get any hint?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In-fact, the first Emperor's Wrath have over a thousand kills under his belt (So damn skilled).
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate have never failed at breaking any individual he wanted to with his telepathic abilities; even have track record of breaking several powerful opponents simultaneously and destroying minds of some.
In-fact, Vitiate's telepathic powers had galactic reach; he simultaneously telepathically controlled thousands of Force-users deployed or moving around in many planets.
I can agree that given favorable conditions like time and/or prep Vitiate has a chance to dominate anyone…
The problems that emerge, however, are:
- How to sustain this domination (Revan broke it, for example).
- His mind-domination is hardly instantaneous. And if he were to succeed in a fight with Plagueis, it absolutely must be. And that does not even factor Plagueis’s extraordinary mental power, arguably more potent that Vitiate’s...
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate's mental strength is unmatched; he had patience of stone, tolerated unprecedented and horrific manifestations of the dark side without succumbing to them,
Also, Vitiate’s “unmatched mental strength”…? Hardly. Sidious’s mind-domination comes to mind, as well as Plagueis’s influence of the Force itself.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
naturally learned to utilize his mental strength in offensive ways and more.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Plagueis would not have managed to unbalance The Force without aid of Sidious and he doesn't matches Vitiate in mental strength related aspects either.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate's top known feat is bending the largest (and one of the most lethal) manifestation of the dark side summoned after a ritual in galactic history to his will to test the limits of his dark side power and complete his first major transformation on Medriaas while the same power obliterated all other life-forms in its path and even annihilated The Force itself surrounding Medriaas.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Combat wise, Vitiate have impressive showings in all kinds of settings:
- Vitiate conquered Medriaas by the age of 13 (with personal kill record in thousands); unparalleled accomplishment.- Vitiate easily felled a Jedi Strike Team (of some of the strongest and most resolute Jedi of the Order) on a space station.*
*This example proves that Vitiate doesn't needs to be on a DS nexus to be a monster.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate managed to stop aging of his original body for indefinite period with his dark side talents; could also prevent decay of his original body/avatars from physical toll of heavy dark side practices. In-fact, Vitiate knew ways to extend the life of others for indefinite period as well.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Plagueis certainly learned the art of midi-chlorian manipulation but he didn't match Vitiate in this aspect. In-fact, Plagueis wanted to learn the secrets of Vitiate but he never got access to such knowledge; no one did.
Vitiate did not master midi-chlorian manipulation. Plagueis did.
[QUOTE=14448558]Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
[B] And no! Plagueis does not have sufficient credentials to match Vitiate in combat aspects; Vitiate have ruled supreme over many Force prodigies during his span of existence. He packed lot of surprises as well.
Originally posted by Stigma
Sidious didn’t just blitz some skilled masters, he blitzed 3 of “most celebrated swordsmen that the Jedi order have ever produced”. This is leagues above any speed feat that Vitiate demonstrated.
I wouldn't go that far- we've seen the trio elsewhere. Of the three, Fisto was the most impressive, and in the novel he himself said he'd be more comfortable if Kenobi and Plo Koon were there, not even Fisto considered the trio the best in the order at the time, let alone all time.
That said, blitzing Fisto + two other highly skilled fighters before Windu could save them is still very impressive.
Additionally, once he got one on-one with Opress? Sidious not only effortlessly outdueled him, but turned his back before killing him. He's a very dominant saber user.
Originally posted by Q99
I wouldn't go that far- we've seen the trio elsewhere. Of the three, Fisto was the most impressive, and in the novel he himself said he'd be more comfortable if Kenobi and Plo Koon were there, not even Fisto considered the trio the best in the order at the time, let alone all time.That said, blitzing Fisto + two other highly skilled fighters before Windu could save them is still very impressive.
Well, the trio is identified as "celebrated swordsmen." Nevertheless, that Kenobi/Koon > Kolar/Tiin does not mean that the latter are not highly impressive and are not an elite of saber fighters in the Jedi history. It does mean that Kenobi and Koon are still better, which is mind-blowing.
Either way, as you said, this speed feat is highly impressive.
Originally posted by Q99
[Additionally, once he got one on-one with Opress? Sidious not only effortlessly outdueled him, but turned his back before killing him. He's a very dominant saber user.
Well, the trio is identified as "celebrated swordsmen." Nevertheless, that Kenobi/Koon > Kolar/Tiin does not mean that the latter are not highly impressive and are not an elite of saber fighters in the Jedi history. It does mean that Kenobi and Koon are still better, which is mind-blowing.
Either way, as you said, this speed feat is highly impressive.
Personally, I'd guess they're mostly counting post-Ruusian history, which is how ones of their level get so highly praised even though we the readers know so many great duelists from earlier eras. Before 1,000 years before, records get shakier and Jedi of the time wouldn't have as much precise data (only counting that span after the records were lost, mind, still puts them at some of the more celebrated in the last 1k years! Good amount of war experience).
My own Top 8 atm would be: Sidious, Plagueis, Vitiate, Bane, Nihilus, Tulak Hord, Exar Kun, Krayt.
After that I'm torn between Vader, Marka Ragnos, Zannah, Malgus and Nox for the last two. Maybe Caedus, though no-one's yet changed my mind about him. sneer
Honorable mentions to the Emperors Wrath, Nyriss, Jadus, Uliq Qel'Droma, the First Son, Baras, Wyyrlok, Tyrannus and Karness Muur. Also the Dread Masters but obvs they don't count.
He could use Shatterpoint, Lightning and Choke instinctively, Aing-Tii Fighting-sight, the memory-rub technique, He could also project near perfect illusions of others in the mind of the viewer, He even briefly transformed into the most powerful manifestation of the force ever recorded when he achieved oneness, he could even probe the future, a far more advanced version of Precognition, He could actively bend the will of other powerful force users, all but his uncle, Vergere considered him the Jedi dream and the Jedi even believed Luke to be the only jedi who could compare to and defeat Jacen, and this was before his turn to the Dark Side.
Edit: plus he was only defeated by Jaina, the sword of the jedi, when he only had one arm, and he coulda killed her despite all this, but he opted not to.