Originally posted by The_Tempest
Bane really shouldn't be in the top 10. If we're going by feats alone, then I need to put that random ass Jedi from the Clone Wars miniseries in the top 10 for holding a Venator-class Star Destroyer aloft with her TK.
Not if it was a one time thing. Which, incidentally, it seemed to be.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
He could use Shatterpoint, Lightning and Choke instinctively, Aing-Tii Fighting-sight, the memory-rub technique, He could also project near perfect illusions of others in the mind of the viewer, He even briefly transformed into the most powerful manifestation of the force ever recorded when he achieved oneness, he could even probe the future, a far more advanced version of Precognition, He could actively bend the will of other powerful force users, all but his uncle, Vergere considered him the Jedi dream and the Jedi even believed Luke to be the only jedi who could compare to and defeat Jacen, and this was before his turn to the Dark Side.Edit: plus he was only defeated by Jaina, the sword of the jedi, when he only had one arm, and he coulda killed her despite all this, but he opted not to.
Meh, as you said, none of this is convincing to me.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Bane really shouldn't be in the top 10. If we're going by feats alone, then I need to put that random ass Jedi from the Clone Wars miniseries in the top 10 for holding a Venator-class Star Destroyer aloft with her TK.
Or maybe Ganner Rhysode for holding off hundreds of Vong at once. Jedi can do amazing feats when they push themselves beyond their limits. As ares said, that was a one-time thing. Bane is consistently powerful.
Also I'm not merely going by feats. Bane has the standing in the mythos to be one of the greats. He outclasses everyone in his era, possesses 3 (4?) holocrons worth of knowledge and has incredible skills in most areas of the Force.
Originally posted by ares834
Not if it was a one time thing. Which, incidentally, it seemed to be.
If it was a one-time thing contradicted by other showings, I'd agree.
But the only way Bane deserves a place here is if we determine such things by feats alone. And if we do that, someone like Starkiller annihilates Bane.
And Vitiate.
Of course feats shouldn't be ignored. If that were the case, I'd never bother defending any character with feats, now would I?
But as I have matured in my understanding of Star Wars canon and bolstered by constant validation of my interpretation, I'm aware of stylization and creative discrepancies.
Feats, even consistent feats, do not alone determine placement. Starkiller demonstrates consistently incredible feats that put to shame characters such as Bane and Vitiate. And while I may put Starkiller above the former, I wouldn't put him above the latter.
Even though, feat-wise, he is. By miles and miles and miles and miles.
If Bane were endorsed by accolade elsewhere, I'd be more sensitive to it. But I simply can't in good conscience put him so highly due to exaggerated feats just as I wouldn't put Dooku above Revan.
Uh-huh, yet you seem to be advocating that we ignore Banes feats and judge him solely by..... being the lowest of the RoT Sith? You can say you're not ignoring his feats but you are clearly putting more stock in your personal extrapolations in terms of power-levels than them.
Except Starkillers feats are noted as being exaggerated whilst Banes are not. How do you judge what is exaggerated? Would you say Sidious' lightning in Sithisis is? His mind-raping billions of Coruscanti? Draining an entire planet? Or Plagueis disintegrating dozens of attacks with a Force Wave? What about Dooku pulling down that platform in the Republic Heroes game? Or Anakin pushing that ship platform in the CS comic? Pfft,of course you wouldn't. So how are you judging Bane as being exaggerated when other characters pull out much crazier shit than he does whilst Banes feats have only ever been consistent with what other high-tier combatants have shown. But of course, that exactly why you consider them exaggerated I'll bet. Because you can't believe that Bane could be close to the Top Tiers therefore his feats must be faulty. Which is obviously bullshit and arbitrary bias on your part.
Also, since Revan was written by the same guy as Bane would you not also say his feats are exaggerated as well? Meaning that Dooku, who you already imply has feats above Revan, would seem even more above him?
...Do you really want to derail this thread into an argument about bias and whose bias is greater? Seems like an exhausting and unproductive enterprise to me.
Of course I think Sidious, Dooku, et al. have exaggerated feats. And you'll note that, using Sidious as an example, I do my best to confine feats to context-specific situations and endorse limitations on such powers.
Originally posted by Nephthys
All I'm saying is that its extremely arrogant to think that you have the right to decide what is and isn't exaggerated and pass it off as fact, based just off your own opinion.
Even if that were true, Nebaris and S_W_LeGenD openly engage in the same sort of conduct and yet not once have you brought them to task. Perhaps because they are part of the SWTOR camp?
And we're back to bias again, but just something to think about.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Dismissing Banes feats as exaggerations is completely baseless.
Not at all. We know that the meta-theme of the Rule of Two is about each successive Sith surpassing his or her predecessor. We have outright confirmation in the TPM Scrapbook that Sith powers increased with each generation. And we know for a fact that stylistic discrepancy ultimately means jack in an objective assessment of power (e.g. The Father sitting at the top of the heap despite never knocking down a Temple, unleashing a Force storm, or draining planets.)
All Bane has going for him is feats. And if we go by feats, we must accept Starkiller curbstomps him.
yeah i consider bane in my lower half of my top 10 sith, no doubt. my revised list would be:
1. Sidious
2. Plagueis
3. Vitiate
4. Caedus
5. Darth Krayt
6. Exar Kun
7. Tulak Hord
8. Darth vader
9. Darth Nox/Emperor's wrath
10. Darth Nox/Emperor's wrath
i probably forgot some1
actually bane isnt even on my list lol
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Starkiller demonstrates consistently incredible feats that put to shame characters such as Bane and Vitiate.
The difference is that TFU is primarily a videogame, that has been confirmed to feature incredibly exagerrated displays of Force power and includes individuals from other sources where they don't perform anywhere near as impressively.
The Bane trilogy for the most part does not consist of exaggerated displays of the Force, the great displays are basically exclusive to Bane and are corroborated by his standing in the era where it's made clear that he's head and shoulders above everyone else, as well as numerous accolades and his status as a prophecied entity, as well as (by DoE) his considerable experience, vast knowledge base and understanding of the darkside, and unparalleled learning rate. With Bane it's not just a question of feats, his informed ability is arguably just as impressive. I'd also be interested to see how you'd address the orbalisks, assuming we're talking about RoT Bane.
Bane definitely has Starkiller beat in feats btw, he has the superior feats of speed, precision and scale, and demonstrates a greater variety of knowledge and greater technical ability with a lightsaber.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Even if that were true, Nebaris and S_W_LeGenD openly engage in the same sort of conduct and yet not once have you brought them to task. Perhaps because they are part of the SWTOR camp?And we're back to bias again, but just something to think about.
Nice deflection, but we're talking about your argument, not mine. And I have mentioned many times that I don't agree with all of Neb and Legends arguments.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not at all. We know that the meta-theme of the Rule of Two is about each successive Sith surpassing his or her predecessor. We have outright confirmation in the TPM Scrapbook that Sith powers increased with each generation. And we know for a fact that stylistic discrepancy ultimately means jack in an objective assessment of power (e.g. The Father sitting at the top of the heap despite never knocking down a Temple, unleashing a Force storm, or draining planets.)All Bane has going for him is feats. And if we go by feats, we must accept Starkiller curbstomps him.
Which doesn't mean Bane is not in the top 10 known Sith Lords. Plus, as many people have told you the RoT is not infallible nor is it a "magic rule" that makes the apprentice always more powerful in terms of combat than their master. And its never said to what degree they increase. Perhaps they're half a percent more powerful.
Wrong. Bane has more than feats, he's heavily implied to be the Sith'ari for Jegus' sake.
The only relevance that the story's medium has to the equation is the fact that there would be far greater constraints imposed on visual media (due to budget and time) than on literature. Animators have to vividly capture "lolz blow shiz up" whereas all Karpyshyn need do is lovingly detail it with words at a comparatively trivial cost. More importantly, that Karpyshyn himself does not ascribe superiority to Bane over the likes of Revan or even Vader is in itself telling of his authorial intentions: He could have answered the question by saying "lolz Vader fights like an old man, Bane BLOWS UP TEMPLES AND DISINTEGRATES SHIT LOL" but elects not to. Even in the realm of Lucas-canon, we observe a noticeable increase in choreography and performance from characters (not just Jedi and Sith). In the OT, they moved awkwardly and clumsily, lifting X-wings with constipated expressions; in the PT, they move smoothly and fluidly at greater speeds and with greater agility, throwing mini-van sized Senate pods like frisbees; in the Clone Wars microseries, characters annihilate armies and use Trade Federation landing craft like an Asian might wield gongs; in the Clone Wars CGI series, fighters openly engage in acrobatics despite the presence of heavy armor; Darth Maul drags a Jedi shuttle around like Tonka toys, Savage Opress destroys a room by merely flexing. And, in fact, you even notice a Power Creep between Clone Wars seasons 2 & 3+.
Stylistic variance simply does exist. The fact that Leland Chee declared The Father as the most powerful Star Wars character and not, say, Nihilus or Bane or Vitiate makes argument to the contrary untenable.
Bane, as the lowest link in the Rule of Two, is simply the product of exaggeration.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Even if that were true, Nebaris and S_W_LeGenD openly engage in the same sort of conduct and yet not once have you brought them to task. Perhaps because they are part of the SWTOR camp?And we're back to bias again, but just something to think about.
Not at all. We know that the meta-theme of the Rule of Two is about each successive Sith surpassing his or her predecessor. We have outright confirmation in the TPM Scrapbook that Sith powers increased with each generation. And we know for a fact that stylistic discrepancy ultimately means jack in an objective assessment of power (e.g. The Father sitting at the top of the heap despite never knocking down a Temple, unleashing a Force storm, or draining planets.)
All Bane has going for him is feats. And if we go by feats, we must accept Starkiller curbstomps him.
I don't know if I'd consider myself part of the SWTOR camp, lol, seeing as I haven't even started playing the game. NSW and TotJ perhaps.
But anyway, the difference here is that the EU stuff surrounding the characters from the movies for the most part directly contradicts what we see in the G-Canon movies. You can't say the same thing regarding characters that don't feature in the movies.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Nice deflection, but we're talking about your argument, not mine. And I have mentioned many times that I don't agree with all of Neb and Legends arguments.
I'm merely illustrating the quagmire of bias-whining. We can't have an open discussion about it simply because that would require too much openness.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Which doesn't mean Bane is not in the top 10 known Sith Lords. Plus, as many people have told you the RoT is not infallible nor is it a "magic rule" that makes the apprentice always more powerful in terms of combat than their master. And its never said to what degree they increase. Perhaps they're half a percent more powerful.
And yet we have explicit confirmation that the Rule of Two was a success in this regard through each generation.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Wrong. Bane has more than feats, he's heavily implied to be the Sith'ari for Jegus' sake.
He was the Sith'ari. But unless we interpret that prophecy illogically and literally ("a perfect being"😉, his cosmological and political importance has no bearing on his Force power.
Unless you'd be willing to confer the same to Palpatine simply by virtue of being history's most successful Sith?
The Bane trilogy for the most part does not consist of exaggerated displays of the Force, the great displays are basically exclusive to Bane and are corroborated by his standing in the era where it's made clear that he's head and shoulders above everyone else, as well as numerous accolades and his status as a prophecied entity, as well as (by DoE) his considerable experience, vast knowledge base and understanding of the darkside, and unparalleled learning rate. With Bane it's not just a question of feats, his informed ability is arguably just as impressive. I'd also be interested to see how you'd address the orbalisks, assuming we're talking about RoT Bane.Bane definitely has Starkiller beat in feats btw, he has the superior feats of speed, precision and scale, and demonstrates a greater variety of knowledge and greater technical ability with a lightsaber. [/B]
I actually partially agree with you here, in that Bane at his peak is one of the most powerful characters in the mythos; that he was considered to be the possible sith'ari upon first joining the Korriban academy is quite the accolade.
But he's not as powerful as Palpatine. Or Plagueis. Or Vitiate (in the Force). Or Caedus. Or prime Revan. Or Nihilus. Or Yoda. Or Luke. Or possibly some of the upper tier ancient sith (in raw Force ability). Or Kyp Durron (in raw Force ability). Or Mace Windu (with vaapad). Or Abeloth. Or the Father. Or the Son. Or the Daughter. Or Zonakin. Or Zonama Sekot. Or possibly Satele Shan (Force). Or very possibly Vader (Force).